Hello Jaglovers, bought a series 2 upright to change the brakes of the series 1 e type which the four pots calipers and vented discs I have saved for the upgrade, if that is wise to do.
There is an option to bolt a Volvo 240 caliper straight on, without changing the uprights.
Series 3 e type uprights are not so expensive and I do have two Tie Rods lying around.
What is wise to do, any comment?
Frank, body '63.
Exactly what is it you’re trying to accomplish? What aspect of the braking are you trying to improve?
Regards,
Ray L.
There ya go. The question he needs to answer. If a E-Type person reads all the comments on this topic they will get different opinions. In the end it seems pretty clear that job #1 is making sure everything is working correctly in the first place. The way most Jaguars are driven at this time a Series I system in proper shape with the best pads works fine, if maybe not great.
Mixing all sorts of random calipers and rotors is a crap shoot at best. There is common wisdom which includes putting larger rears on if you put larger fronts on. If you’re lucky, like I was, your balance will be great and all will be right in the world. If not you’ll need to be a team of engineers on your own to sort out brake balance and feel.
What I can tell a person is to make sure the calipers are quality, whatever you do. I had a stock TRW (Chinese, but TRW branded) which worked great, replacing a bad (Chinese) stainless caliper. Eventually having to replace all the stainless, junky rears with brand new Dunlop Nissan units. Fronts English and seem to be excellent quality. Junk calipers will be junk reliability no matter the size or theory. Change stuff from factory at your peril.
BTW, the Goodwood front 4 piston units go right on the stock Series I uprights.
In the interest of less redundant threads Ill post this here rather than make another thread.
I have a '67 4.2 FHC. Is that going to have the later style “better/bigger” calipers? The car brakes well, but I still have the occasional concern that it won’t stop as quickly as a modern car. I have a BMW Z4 that stops like its bolted to the ground. I was considering upgrading to wilwoods in the front and the vented rear rotors later when I tackle the poly bushing project at home.
Is it normal to hear whistling, chirping or slight rubbing from the brakes? I don’t have any symptoms of a stuck brake. Although the E brake only grabs near the end of the handle pull. I haven’t owned a classic car in a long time so I’d forgotten what bumps and squeaks used to be like. P.s. the car was inspected thoroughly last month by a mechanic so I believe all pads should be full.
And I suppose I should also ask, is there a noticeable improvement in stopping power; or are all these kits for track use brake fade prevention?
If you go to S2 uprights, then S2 calipers are going to be fine. But they are three-piston, not four. Not that it matters much. The rotor on an S2 is non-vented, and that does make a difference.
Volvo calipers are four piston, but they have two brake line feeds, so you will need a creative solution for the plumbing, or you will need to drill the calipers so they can be fed from a common pipe. The mounts are 3" spaced, but they are drilled 12mm, so you will need to enlarge them.
By far the easiest upgrade for S2 uprights is to use S3 calipers with the spacers removed. This results in a caliper that is dimensionally identical to an S2 caliper, but with the larger S3 pistons. That’s what I’m running on my car.
Here are a few of the key things about E-Type brake “upgrades” most people seem to miss:
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Vented rotors in the front will do little or nothing to prevent brake fade. The rears will ALWAYS fade first. Putting vented rotors in the rear is difficult, and, unless you provide forced air cooling to them, it’s also kinda useless.
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The stock E-Type brakes, even the “terrible” S1 ones, when it proper operating order, are MORE than capable of locking all four wheels. So, braking is limited by tire grip, NOT by the brakes themselves. Bigger, better calipers can reduce pedal effort, and make the pedal response more linear, and easier to modulate, but they will NOT stop the car any faster.
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If you are driving on the street, and having problems with brake fade, or the braking performance feeling inadequate, then either there is something VERY wrong with your brakes, or your driving style. I live in the mountains, and drive my E-type very hard. I have NEVER, not even once, experienced brake fade. Early on, I did swap out the Dunlop from calipers for Wilwood Dynalites, to get a lighter, more linear pedal response. I retained the stock rotors. I am more than satisfied with my braking. Maximum effort braking occurs with a noticeably lighter pedal effort, and the overall response is FAR more linear than with the Dunlops calipers. But, again, ultimate stopping power is unchanged.
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If you intend to drive on the track, then you need to get ready to spend a LOT more money, mostly to get the rear brakes into a state where they will not overheat with heavy use.
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Any vendor who tells you that simply swapping out the calipers or rotors will stop the car faster (and several DO claim this), is lying to you. Unless you put on wider, stickier tires, which will require wider wheels, it just ain’t gonna happen. Any vendor who tells you putting big, vented rotors on the front will reduce brake fade under extreme use, is lying to you.
Regards,
Ray L.
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I’ve been through it all, including 15 years of racing an E Type with modifications to the brakes, and I still autocross with an e Type. First through third rules: better tires (bigger) equal better brakes. It really is that simple.
Thank you for all the good reasons not to change the front brake of a Series 1 e type, but I heard a lot of people that told me, they weren’t that good. Jaguar changed the brakes in the other series, so they didn’t do that if everything was alright.
I forgot to tell that I have the 4 pots front brakes of the XJ6 to bolt on, but doesn’t fit in the uprights of the S1, but do in the S2, with new vented discs, there is however the point of the stud axle shaft, that is to small and have to change for the bigger one.
A week ago or so I saw someone who broke this shaft and wonder if he knew the danger of the upgrades with Wilwood and Goodwood.
I do have the rear brakes of the XJ6 to with 307 diff to bolt in.
Frank
Frank, I upgraded my S1 4.2 from all freshly rebuilt stock calipers to S2 calipers all around. One of the best upgrades ever. Pedal feel and effort vastly improved. When you consider the S2 setup gives you almost double the swept area it’s not too surprising. The S2 also uses 1/2" rotors compared to 3/8".
I fitted a complete, new S2 brake system to my S1. The brakes are now excellent.
I did it for 2 reasons.(I already had the uprights).
I find the S2 brakes excellent in hard use, especially with Greenstuff pads. Once I even had to do an emergency stop at 130 mph on the Nurburgring. They smoked quite alot, but they were fine once they cooled down. They smoked more from the rear that the front!
Secondly, I think buying all the bits brand new was significantly cheaper than refurbishing the S1 system. From memory it was about ÂŁ70 per caliper , the brake master and remote booster with the reaction valve was a few hundred pounds new.
The only problem with the system is that the reaction valve has a slight reputation for sticking, causing the brakes to grab a bit after the pedal is released sometimes. It only seems to need a bit of brake grease to sort however.
I find the non vented discs excellent.
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I think there is an obvious logic to thinking that the S1 brakes could use an upgrade, since that is exactly the factory decided was needed with the S2 cars.
I installed a set of vented Wilwood brakes and am pleased with them. I went with the vented as I was able to get them for less than the non vented, otherwise would probably not have done so.
Zeus makes a 4 piston kit with the vented rotors and everything included that bolts right in for around 800 dollars. So far I love it!
I have willwoods on my red e but yes many parts to add.
Good luck
gtjoey1314
The only add I had was an adapter. You have two bolts for the adapter to the car, and then two bolts for the caliper to the adapter. Pretty simple
I have many cars with Willwoods and love them.
Ive been turned on to ZEUS and they work fine and with vented discs with no brackets just bolt on.
I like them both.
gtjoey1314
I have both and willwoods on many other cars
I love them all
But the Zeus is a direct bolt on without the extra pieces
Gtjoey1314
Yes James, happy with all the comments about the brakes upgrade, I do have all the parts of the S2 system to bolt in, only missing one upright and the Tie Rods now and then it is complete, bought the ones of the Series 3, so I have to look for these.
Is it a good idea to change the Stub Axle Shaft for the bigger one?
Do like the Wilwood construction, but is very expensive.
Frank.
I just re-read your previous post that you have an XJ6 rear diff with brakes going in. You have no choice but to upgrade the front brakes if you’re putting the later rears in.
Not quite clear on your intentions Frank,
I take it that you are aware of the difference between series 2 and series 3
EType uprights re steering arms , hub offset and overall height.
Remember that a 420 upright is the same as a series 2, these are not handed whereas series 3 are.
I changed the whole hub assembly to S2 including the spindle.
Peter, no, I do not know the difference jet of the steering arms. What I know is that they hard to get, the series 1 and very expensive, so I bought one time cheaply the steering arms of the series 3.
So is there a lot of difference, can you tell me about it.
Frank.
P.S. The part number of the series 2 C30245/C30246, cannot find them.