Jaguar Land Rover and Tata Motors Posting Serious Losses


(Gunnar Helliesen) #1

Iazua the Jaguar cub by Tambako the Jaguar on Flickr.

According to multiple reports over the weekend and today, Jaguar Land Rover have been hemorrhaging money lately, to the extent that they’re in danger of pulling Tata Motors down with them.

Jaguar Land Rover seemed to be doing fine, until Q3 of 2018, when they posted a loss of $113 million. This resulted in an announced 4,500 job cuts, and plans for $3.15 billion in cost savings.

That was then. More recently, Jaguar Land Rover have posted the results for Q4 2018, which, simply put, amount to oceans of red ink. Jaguar Land Rover lost a staggering £3.4 billion ($4.4 billion in current exchange rates) in a single quarter. To put that into perspective, Tata only paid $2.3 billion for JRL back in June of 2008.

As a result of this, Tata Motors posted a loss of $3.78 billion for their Q3 2018, which ended in December. This was India’s biggest corporate loss ever, and resulted in Moody’s, S&P, and Fitch all putting Tata Motors’ credit rating on a “negative watch”.

According to statements by Dr. Ralf Speth, Jaguar Land Rover’s CEO, the losses are due to declining sales of diesel cars, slumping sales in China, and uncertainty created by the prospects of a no-deal Brexit. The latter threatens the carmakers entire operational setup, according to Dr. Speth, and forces Tata Motors to reconsider their financing options.

Or, as the Washington Post put it, The Wheels Have Come Off at Jaguar Land Rover.

(69 FHC ) #2


This article is pretty detailed in explaining the problems facing Jaguar/Land Rover. it’s not a pretty picture.

(j limongelli) #3

Well grandpa TATA has a couple of bucks, care to look at Ford or others…
They are Gagillions in the red.
oops caps.

(69 FHC ) #4

Ford’s net profit for the year ended December 31, 2018 was about 3.8 billion USD.


Full-year 2018 results:
•EPS-diluted of $5.58 and EPS-diluted-adjusted of $6.54
•Full-year income of $8.1 billion and EBIT-adjusted of $11.8 billion
•Full-year EBIT-adjusted margin of 8.0 percent

(j limongelli) #5

I UNDERSTAND, But we paid for GM to steal our money, pay off THEIR friends and reinvent a stock all over again.
Ford showed 3 billion but OWES 8 Billion in pension liabilities.
I don’t care other than TATA can buy all of them…
Tata needs LEO SCHWARTZ to do his accounting, bahhhha

(69 FHC ) #6

Ford’s overall pension liabilities are about 92% funded. That’s better than the average for the 100 largest pension plans in the U.S. A revenue and profit power house like The Walt Disney Company is lower at 72%. Given everything else I wouldn’t be too concerned with Ford’s pension fund.

(j limongelli) #7

I’m not losing sleep about it as well

I just want jag to survive

(Jag-ur) #8

I wouldn’t bet the farm on it until they start building vehicles people want to buy. I’ve been saying this for a while now… call me the canary in the coal mine.

(69 FHC ) #9

I think we can agree on that. The big question is “What”?

What can they sell in volumes large enough to make a profit?

(Gunnar Helliesen) #10

We’re enthusiasts, which in theory should make us the most qualified to answer that. In practice, however, we’re the last people Jaguar should listen to. Why? Because our answer will always be something along the lines of:

“A manual transmission S1 E-Type with a fire-breathing V12 that gets 50+ mpg, with modern suspension, brakes, and steering, has lots of head and leg room, a slightly lowered roof line compared to the original, has absolutely no stupid frills like A/C or a radio, and which sells for $19,999.”

Right? That is what we want, isn’t it? And if we’re in the mood for a saloon/sedan, our response would be either a Mk 2 with the same specs as above, or possibly a S1 or S3 XJ12. The old school peeps would possibly say an XK120, with a modernized 3.8 XK engine (also 50+ mpg), instead of the V12.

So no, they shouldn’t listen to us, because those cars would a) not sell well and b) be impossible to build anyway.

Conventional wisdom would suggest big SUVs and pickup trucks, at least here in the US. Seriously, those are what’s making money right now.

As for Europe? The I-Pace. It’s selling very well there, thank you very much.

China? I have no idea. Please chime in someone, if you do.

Personally, I’d like to see them bring the sexy back. I don’t mind the form factor of the XE or the XF, or even the XJ, but they are just so stupefyingly boring looking. I think the F-Pace drives like an underpowered boat, but worse, it looks like one. I haven’t tried the E-Pace or the I-Pace yet, so can’t say. They look a little better than the F-Pace, at least they don’t look like boats. But they do look kinda boring.

In summary? Whatever is causing Jaguar to launch one also-ran looking box after another needs to be fixed. If that cause is Ian Callum, then he needs to go. If it’s design-by-committee, then that needs to stop.

Bring the sexy back.

(See, I just did it, what I warned about in the beginning of this post.)

(69 FHC ) #11

Amen. IMO a Jaguar should say, “I’m driving a Jaguar. Don’t you wish you were too”?,

(j limongelli) #12

Gentlemen, Sadly , knowing people on the board and board meetings.
All automobiles are now an appliance, 1 special board member vowed to never vote for a truck in the lineup.
If Jaguar did not build the F PACE, E PACE, I PACE and every other" pace", their doors would have been completely shut 4 years ago.
Cars are DEAD.
I own a new XF WAGON AND MY WIFE a new F pace truck.
Its all going to trucks for females or ubers for millennials.
That’s all she wrote and SHE is the big thing!
The politicians in their wisdom in New York just killed the AMAZON DEAL.
25,000 jobs and 26 billion in taxes, Cortez was cheering as they made the shift to leave.
Same with cars, you have NO say, the government owns it, regulates it.
IMHO, I agree with all of you but we are OLD MEN, So enjoy your petrol, we are the last.
P.S. I’m getting a truck as well, my streets are worse than the middle east and they have no streets…
Im going to Amelia with my xk120 to live in the past, join me…
Wood dash, you killed a tree, Leather interior, you killed a cow, red dye , your poisoning the water supply…do you get it?

(Les Halls 1968 S1.5 2+2 Atlanta) #13

Bring back the MKII…ok so I’m a little old and a little biased, but bring back the MKII…oh crap I already said that. Anyway the MKII was IMHO the best design shape they ever made, so they should bring…ah dammit!

(Les Halls 1968 S1.5 2+2 Atlanta) #14

But haven’t all those GM, and other, gov’t loans been paid back, WITH interest…that’s what I hear/read.

Ford didn’t use any gov’t money.

(Les Halls 1968 S1.5 2+2 Atlanta) #15

Interesting statement that…a while back I was talking to a past President of JCNA and asked him what Jaguar cars wanted from JCNA…the answer wasn’t at all clear and it left me wondering if they don’t just consider us a handy dandy group that lends credence to their ancient and historical performance…so just an accommodation really.

(Gunnar Helliesen) #16

Pretty much. We’ve always had a friendly relationship with Jaguar, but they don’t seem to know what to make of us or do with us. When I visited the factory back in '97 or so, some of the people I met there knew who I was, and seemed to be happy to see me (much to the surprise of the rest of our little tour group), but that was it.

Well, come to think of it, they did let me see some of the first X308s roll off the assembly line, on a gentleman’s promise not to say anything to anyone until the official announcement. I wonder if they’d still allow something like that today …

I always wondered why they don’t put information about the JEC, the JCNA, and Jag-lovers in every new car, and in every dealership. I understand that we’re all third parties over which they have no control, so in that sense it’s a bit of a risk, but still. We add to the value of Jaguar ownership, even for owners of brand new cars.

(Bob S) #17

But haven’t all those GM, and other, gov’t loans been paid back

NO, they have not. Anything that the “NEW” GM was loaned was but the “OLD” GM debt was eaten by the US tax payers. Most of GM’s debt was funneled into this thing called “Old GM” and buried by the Obama adminstration. Did you every hear of them talking about the “Old GM” as a separate company? Plus I know of may GM employees that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars from there 401k when the government bailed them out. One person I know lost well over $500,000 from there 401K during the bailout. That really hurts when you’re mid to late 50’s. The 401k’s were never made whole.

Anyway back to Jaguar:
The styling since Tata took over does not follow the Grace, Space and Pace of it’s founder. The look of the cars look like almost every other car. If you line them up with most of the competitors and ask people to pick out the Jag, most couldn’t do it.

As far as styling goes Jaguar design said the Mr. Ford (William Clay Ford Sr) was holding them back. Once Ford sold them they had free reins and in my opinion they blew it. The XK180 show car is much more exciting looking than any F-type.

Jaguar’s car platform is basically an Aluminum DEW98/S-type platform. They haven’t really moved beyond that basic structure, where Volvo move beyond the old Mondeo (CDW) platform they helped create. They seem to be doing OK for the moment, but let’s keep and eye on them.

Well Ta-Ta for now

(j limongelli) #18

Les believe me I was there
We were proud of Ford but now in the long run it’s been a slow painful death AND because of not restructuring ten years ago like the others due to family ownership the quality is garbage status … just read any report

Now if you don’t know who is in te picture we can close the conversation on the terrible 3

(j limongelli) #19

Well jaguar was saved by Ford and the x300 saved Jag
Now did they cut corners later on
Yes but this is when the world blew up in 2008
Ford saved them
But then needed to dump them
Remember this was all under the premier group!
They saved Aston as well

(Bob S) #20

Agree 100%.
Without Ford Motor and Mr W C Ford Sr orders to buy them, Jaguar and Aston they wouldn’t be here today.