JCNA Judges

To all who see this posting, greetings!

My name is Dick Cavicke, I have been the Chief Judge of the San Diego
Jaguar Club for several years. I am a member of the JCNA Protest
Committee, of CJA, and a subscriber to the XK and XKE lists since their
inception.

I’m not certain of the specific reason for this “Concours List” but it
has occurred to me that one use would be as a forum for JCNA judges to
discuss problems and propose changes to improve the existing JCNA rules
and procedures.

In particular, I would welcome working on my favorite problem, the
non-authenticity deductions, to eliminate some of the gross imbalances.
(ie. A missing spat deducts 1.8 pts; a wrong color headliner deducts
16.8 pts.)

With discussion and hopefully some level of concurrence in this forum of
JCNA judges, I would like to think that change recommendations from us,
either at the AGM or at any other time, should carry a fair amount of
weight. (Wishful thinking!)

As you may be aware, well intended rules changes submitted at the AGM
are sometimes misunderstood by the delegates and voted down. I imagine
it could take forever to get the non-authenticity deductions corrected
in the AGM format. Each agenda item gets picked apart, yet not all of
the attendees have been seriously involved in judging.

What do you think? If there are only a few judges on the list, we may be
a bit slow in developing a “power base” but we can at least share ideas
and focus on what are seen to be the most urgent problems.

If you check-in with your names, club affiliations and comments, I’ll
keep track.

Thanks, Dick Cavicke
<@F8driver>

Dick,

Welcome! You fooled me Dick, you changed your address. It was believed
by the organizers of the new lists that there was an interest by many in
the area of showing and judging. I believe that your idea about points
discussion clearly fits into what the organizers had in mind. Questions
about originality would probably be posted to the appropriate car list
rather than the concours list. In reality the purpose of the list will
be determined by the members. We’ll just have to see where the future
takes us.

Regards,
Dick White (admin)

P.S. I volunteered to be admin because I knew we had several judges on
the xk list and I thought they would probably sign up here.>My name is Dick Cavicke, I have been the Chief Judge of the San Diego

Jaguar Club for several years. I am a member of the JCNA Protest
Committee, of CJA, and a subscriber to the XK and XKE lists since their
inception.

I’m not certain of the specific reason for this “Concours List” but it
has occurred to me that one use would be as a forum for JCNA judges to
discuss problems and propose changes to improve the existing JCNA rules
and procedures.
…snip…

Dick,
I am about as far as I can get from being a JCNA judge, but I have
questions about the issues I have seen discussed in the XK list, both as an
owner and as the person who compiles the FAQs for XK & Concours. What are
some of the distinctions between originality and authenticity for judging
purposes? Are there lists of what are considered “authentic” standards for
each model?

I guess my puzzlement boils down to how someone like me who has little to
go on would know whether something I do to my car (or something the PO did)
will end up as a penalty, given that there is so much variation between
what is found on the vehicles themselves, what is depicted in Skilleter &
Porter, et al, and what is “common knowledge” among owners. One example is
the recent question on horn colors for XK140s. The were emphatically
described as light gray, polychromatic gray, and black by several owners.

Jim Voorhies
XK140 FHC>To all who see this posting, greetings!

My name is Dick Cavicke, I have been the Chief Judge of the San Diego Jaguar
Club for several years. I am a member of the JCNA Protest Committee, of CJA,
and a subscriber to the XK and XKE lists since their inception.

I’m not certain of the specific reason for this “Concours List” but it has
occurred to me that one use would be as a forum for JCNA judges to discuss
problems and propose changes to improve the existing JCNA rules and procedures.

In particular, I would welcome working on my favorite problem, the
non-authenticity deductions, to eliminate some of the gross imbalances. (ie. A
missing spat deducts 1.8 pts; a wrong color headliner deducts 16.8 pts.)

What are
some of the distinctions between originality and authenticity for judging
purposes?

Except for the new preservation class (18), where orginality is checked
(replacements count the same as non-authentic), all JCNA judging is
based on authenticity. Authentic means that any replacements should
be the same as what was being delivered on cars at that time.

Are there lists of what are considered “authentic” standards for
each model?

Officially, the only sources considered to be authentic are the factory
publications (manuals, spare parts books, etc.). However, we all know
that in times of transition, Jaguar didn’t make clean switch-overs to
new parts, and sometimes they simply took what was expedient to keep
a car moving on the production line. Case in point: my early FHC has
roadster seats, and carries the bonnet with the body number of the
car behind it on the line (it was the first one to use a new style
of hinge, which apparently didn’t work, so they grabbed the next
bonnet). So, unofficially, judges tolerate variations in which a
part is on a car a little before or after the date it is introduced.

I guess my puzzlement boils down to how someone like me who has little to
go on would know whether something I do to my car (or something the PO did)
will end up as a penalty, given that there is so much variation between
what is found on the vehicles themselves, what is depicted in Skilleter &
Porter, et al, and what is “common knowledge” among owners.

If you follow the factory literature, you can’t go wrong. However, the
literature doesn’t specify every aspect of the car (such as the color
of each part). In that case, you have to do your own research (this
list is one source, but there are lots of others). If you plan to show
in a JCNA concours, then you should join a local club and get to
know the judges, or even become one (it’s not hard). There’s no source
of instant expertise that I know of – people who care just put a lot
of time into the research. Another approach is to just take your car to
shows to have it judged, and pay attention to what they tell you is
non-authentic. You don’t have to field a trophy-winning car the first
time out. Many people show their cars without ever expecting to win
a prize – they just do it for the fun of participating, and the
excuse it gives them to tidy up their cars.

The bottom line is, if you are dead-serious about winning in concours
class, you need to do the research or hire professional help that has
the necessary knowledge. It’s a lot of work (and money). If you just
want to show for the fun of it, then don’t let authenticity slow down
your work on the car. It isn’t some horrible tragedy to lose a few
points in a show, and next time you need to work on a part that’s
been judged non-authentic, maybe you’ll also correct it.

Chip

Jim:
Chip Weems gave some good answers to your judging questions and I’ll
give you a few more. However, even after all our advice, you’ll still be
subject to the primary variable in all concours, the knowledge of the
judging team that looks at your car. The most painful experience occurs
when the team isn’t qualified in your model and you’re competing against
someone’s $50K cosmetically perfect but non-authentic restoration.

As Chip suggested, contact an XK140 expert in the local club, treat him
to lunch or an “adult beverage” and have him give your car a couple of
good inspections. It will help you avoid restoring PO mistakes,
preparing for show or just getting it closer to being authentic.

For better or worse, the JCNA XK140 1992 AGM Seminar Bulletin provides
reasonable detail for component color. It specifies “grey” for the horns
and the same “grey” for OTS top frame, seat frames, hood stick,
passenger hand-hold, etc. Incidently, horn color is not on the judges’
score sheet, just horn function.

The JCNA definition of Non-Authenticity is:
“Non-Authenticity- A part, component, finish, color or material is
considered non-authentic if it is not a genuine Jaguar item for the
particular year and model of the Jaguar being presented. The item must
be as it was specified and intended to leave the factory by Jaguar cars.
Replacement parts, regardless of manufacturer, are acceptable only if
they meet the exact specifications of the original item or material. The
judge must use common sense when judging for non-authenticity.”

The trouble with the foregoing is knowing what Jaguar “specified and
intended” and then realizing that what Jaguar actually DID may have been
something else. The conversation on the XK list confirms this and makes
the list readers more qualified than many XK experts.

There is also the impracticality of assessing whether items “meet the
exact specifications of the original item…”. In practice this has been
more reasonably interpreted as “should look exactly as the original”.

Understanding the new “Preservation class” has prompted me to examine
what “original” and “unrestored” should mean. I think “original” means
unrestored; NOT refinished, repainted, replated, or replaced (except
maybe for plugs, tires, belts & hoses). (Simple repair is OK if it
doesn’t involve the foregoing.)

Any other opinions?

I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to
interested parties.

Regards, Dick Cavicke

At 10:37 AM -0700 5/22/97, f8driver@pacbell.net wrote:

I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to
interested parties.

This brings up an interesting point. Would JCNA be willing to allow
a copy of the Judges Manual to be put on the Jag-Lovers web site? It
would save them some mailings, and take a fair amount of the mystery
out of showing, which could only encourage more participation.

Chip

I’m taking the “unrestored” literally until someone tells us different.
If it’s restored, it should be in a regular concours class (as if Class
18 isn’t a regular class). Original should be the part that left the
factory. This is what they wanted I believe.

SK
62 OTS

f8driver@pacbell.net wrote:

> Understanding the new “Preservation class” has prompted me to examine

what “original” and “unrestored” should mean. I think “original” means
unrestored; NOT refinished, repainted, replated, or replaced (except
maybe for plugs, tires, belts & hoses). (Simple repair is OK if it
doesn’t involve the foregoing.)

Any other opinions?

I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to
interested parties.

Regards, Dick Cavicke

The responses have cleared up quite a bit. Thanks. Now, more questions…

My 140 has some interior panels that appear to have been replaced somewhere
along the way (e.g., along the sides of the footwells and the sides next to
the rear “seats”). They appear to have been hand trimmed with fit and
finish in a lower level of quality than I would expect from a Jag. (But I
don’t know for sure.) Has JCNA ever considered using the cream of the
trailer queen class as a up close and detailed photo source for inclusion
in their manuals? Or could that hurt as much as help if, like in Porter and
Skilleter, there are photos that include the wrong windshield washer bottle
or coil, etc.?

Are the complete JCNA manual and AGM seminar bulletins available from JCNA?

  • Jim Voorhies>I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to

interested parties.

If so, I would be happy to scan the materials in and get them ready for the
website.

  • Jim Voorhies>>I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to

interested parties.

This brings up an interesting point. Would JCNA be willing to allow
a copy of the Judges Manual to be put on the Jag-Lovers web site? It
would save them some mailings, and take a fair amount of the mystery
out of showing, which could only encourage more participation.

Chip

Jim Voorhies asked:

Has JCNA ever considered using the cream of the trailer queen class as >a up close and detailed photo source for inclusion in their manuals? Or >could that hurt as much as help if, like in Porter and Skilleter, there >are photos that include the wrong windshield washer bottle or coil, >etc.?

If someone took it upon themselves to do it, yes, pictures could be
taken. I believe, however, that unless the project was blessed by JCNA
beforehand, regional differences and internal politics would require
that every JCNA 140 expert would want to approve of the picture content
before they could be published as references.

I think the best way to commission that sort of effort might be to
volunteer or propose to upgrade an existing JCNA bulletin, circulate the
new material for comment and submit it for approval at the next AGM.

I’m certain that aside from a full blown JCNA effort, any of the recent
140 National Champion owners would be willing to send you pictures of
their car interiors for a nominal fee. You would have assurance that at
least several judges thought that particular car to be correct.

Are the complete JCNA manual and AGM seminar bulletins available from JCNA?

Yes they are. The seminar bulletins are from $10 to $32 each for JCNA
members; $20 to $42 each for non-members.

The new Concours Rule Book is $6 for members; $12 for non-members.

The contact is Charles Morgan, JCNA Publications, 5511 Sycamore Ave.,
Baltimore, MD 21227. Voice-FAX (410) 242-7312.

Regards, Dick Cavicke

I believe a few folks in the Michigan group attempted to adopt the
Series III restoration guide published by a local fellow and in the end
it did not happen. Apparently the pictures and descriptions were
accurate, but there must have been an issue with casting in permanent
stone the definitive description of how a Series III should look. I
would think that getting this approved on a national basis would be
difficult at best.

SK
62 OTS

Jim Voorhies wrote:>

The responses have cleared up quite a bit. Thanks. Now, more questions…

My 140 has some interior panels that appear to have been replaced somewhere
along the way (e.g., along the sides of the footwells and the sides next to
the rear “seats”). They appear to have been hand trimmed with fit and
finish in a lower level of quality than I would expect from a Jag. (But I
don’t know for sure.) Has JCNA ever considered using the cream of the
trailer queen class as a up close and detailed photo source for inclusion
in their manuals? Or could that hurt as much as help if, like in Porter and
Skilleter, there are photos that include the wrong windshield washer bottle
or coil, etc.?

Are the complete JCNA manual and AGM seminar bulletins available from JCNA?

  • Jim Voorhies

I’ll be happy to forward some pertinent sections of the JCNA Manual to
interested parties.