Long time sitting, now crank and no start condition Series 3

XJ
1

Hi everybody, i’ve been trying to start my xj6 Series 3 1986 today and no luck. It will crank, and crank, but no fire.

I’ve done all the following procedures:
1- New battery
2- New sparkplugs
3- Both fuel tank empty, and now 1/4 tank on left one, and 10liters on right one.
4- Checked fuel pump (noise heard in the boot) when 12v applied to white/green wire at the firewall.
5- Fuel coming to fuel rail, checked when disconnected fuel hose at rail, fuel coming from both hose and metal rail (can’t check pressure).
6- Fuel pressure air hose replaced (old one cracked).
7- Have spark.
8- Injectors should be working because before changing spark plugs, and after some tries, some of the spark plugs where flooded with fuel, so i think fuel is coming through injectors.

I can crank, and crank till battery declares low voltage and it will not move the starter.

Only on time today i could get a start condition, the car will climb in RPM, and keep a high idle of 1200RPM (not a problem right now). But after that, i switched the car off, and here we are, no more start. Tried like 20 times, and no start, nothing happens.

Tried with bot tanks, but prefer left one because the selection valve works with the left one when not energized, by the way when i click the button at the dash, i can hear a “click”, so i guess it’s working.

Also, fuel relay is out of the car, just a jump between white/green and 12v at the relay base to reduce possible problems.

Any ideas???

Thanks a lot!!

Ariel

2

Could be several things, but a thought that comes to mind as it has been sitting and you stated it was flooded with gas is possibly the airflow meter and/or flap is stuck.

otherwise what is common as I recall is a bad thermotime switch…these do apparently fail and are fundamental to the computer start system, etc…

Report back if you get it…
…it helps others.

regards

3

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With the fuel relay white/green connected to 12V, Ariel - the pump should run continuously…

…the better idea is to connect relay socket white to relay socket white/green - the pump will then run with the ign to ‘crank/run’. This bypasses the relay - OK until the problem is resolved…

Fuel pressure from an ‘as new’ pump will be 100+ psi - and a ‘good enough’ pump must deliver at least 50 to 60 psi to run the engine. With the hose to the rail is disconnected; the fuel would trickle from the rail, but positively gush from the hose - a fire hazard unless contained. Household water pressure is commonly around 45 psi - just to compare…so…?? So if the fuel is trickling from the fuel pump hose; the pressure is far too low - but only a fuel pressure test can tell the actual pressure. Lack of fuel pressure may be caused by the pump or a blockage in the lines - if the pump was run with the tanks ‘empty’, tank debris may be sucked in to block lines or the changeover valve…

After all that cranking; are the plugs still wet? If so, the problem may be ignition. Connect a spare spark plug, triple gapped, connected to any plug lead to supervise ignition.

As an aside; if the re is no catching response from the engine within 6 seconds - you are whipping a dead horse…:slight_smile:

And I trust you are not using the gas pedal while cranking…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

4

AFM checked simple way, flap will move and cable already reseated, have to check in depth, but without start it’s a bit difficult. Also the one time the car started it will climb RPM, and keep high idle, so i guess it should be working, but worth an in deep check.

It’s been a long time with the car parked frank, long time not talking.

By the way, that’s what i did, just power to pump when run/crank, poor my redaction frank! haha

Have to check the fuel filter also, i’ll get some clamps and remove the changeover valve to clean it out and check, i can hear it click whenever i press dash button. I am going to also change the fuel filter.

Also i forgot to mention i’ve filled the right tank with 10 liters, and nothing show at the gauge, could it be something related to old fuel debris?

Plugs hasn’t been checked after the last refuel and start try because it was in a difficult position to open the engine, but will check it today for fuel smell or wet condition.

Should i be worried about CSI, or another sensor preventing the car to get a start condition?

I’ve tried catching response for 10 seconds may times, let’s say a dead southern right whale :joy:

To do list:

  • Change Fuel filter.
  • Check fuel flow, if not ok: Remove fuel pump clean and check out of the car.
  • Remove changeover valve clean and check.
  • Check for a good spark with spare triple gaped one.

Any other ideas will be well received!

Thanks a lot!!!

Ariel

5

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In this situation, Ariel - a fuel pressure test is the only thing that can positively verify if the fuel pressure is the cause, or not…

While a fuel pressure test does not necessarily pin-point the cause - it makes pursuing fuelling issues worth while. The point here is a non-start might have a wide variety of causes - and if this is not a fuel problem, one is barking up the wrong tree…with little hope of progress…:slight_smile:

You can do a crude fuel pressure test; open the filler lid and run the pump. Listening at the open filler lids you can hear if fuel is ‘tinkling’ as it returns to a tank. It is not really conclusive as it requires a working fuel pressure regulator, but if fuel is not(!) returning - it is a strong indication that fuel is not(!) supplied from the pump at adequate pressure…

Tank debris settle fairly quickly, but is stirred up while driving on low tank levels. So while filling an empty tank may stir up the debris - it not really cause a problem before driving. However, the clogging may have occurs at an earlier stage - before the car was parked up. There is an in-tank filter that sift of large bits - but the filter may be damaged. Debris passing the intake filter may indeed clog up the lines and the changeover valve.

Smaller particles may enter the pump, which usually grinds them up - and is then caught by the main filter. It doesn’t do the pump any good, of course, but it is a fairly tough customer. The main point here is that if tank debris is verified as a cause; the tank drains should be open to clear the sludge sump for debris and accumulated water…

It also needs to be mentioned that a fault in the changeover valve and/or the return valves may cause fuel to be moved from one tank to another. So if your gauge read ‘zero’ you should use only a tank that shows fuel - until this issue is solved.

If lack of fuel is revealed by dry plugs; you can verify ignition by ‘draming’ the engine with fuel through the spark plug holes. Replacing the plugs and cranking; if ignition is OK, the engine will start and run briefly - sort of confirming that ignition is OK, and fuel is a likely issue…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

6

Frank, been with the car some time today, and found the problem.

As sugested, removed fuel main filter, checked and there was something moving inside, and all the fuel was full of debris and brown color.

After that, i took the filter inlet and turned on the pump till clear fuel came from it, some seconds and good fuel. New filter installed, checked fuel at rail it took some seconds, strange to me, but then it started filling a bottle i used.

Turned key 2 seconds and she started! low on RPM but started, then i could move the car a little bit forward and rear, so decided to go for a test round the block, 1, 2, 3 blocks and died. It started to bounce RPM and moving very slow, like there was no power.

So my best guess, ignition is working ok, because i could climb RPM on the first start, 1500/2000/2500 RPM and keep that range. Fuel pump is my first suspect, because it will idle (little low) but when i hit D or R RPM dropped a lot, and if i hit the gas it will die. Like there is something wrong.

Am i doing a good troubleshooting frank??

Also, could it be something related to ignition the RPM bounce?

Any recommendation on fuel pump model and brand? buying from ebay or other US site.

Thanks!!

Ariel

1 Like
7

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You are on track, Ariel - fuel is the problem, or at least an issue…

The heavily contaminated fuel filter indicates that debris is entering the system. Unless the primary cause of filter clogging is removed, the clogging will recur - tanks should be drained to clear out debris as an initial step. It’s advisable to inspect the tanks at some stage to assess whether further action is required…

The sluggish behaviour may be caused by flow restriction through a reclogged filter. Or indeed debris clogging pump feed - including in-tank filter, lines and the changeover valve - which, if cleaned , will recur until, like with the filter, the primary cause is removed. While a bother; draining the tanks is required, unless you can live with frequent/infrequent clogging, and repeated cleaning operations…:slight_smile:

In addition, pump may be damaged and not delivering sufficient pressure - both clogging and lack of adequate fuel pump pressure will cause the symptoms you describe; inadequate fuel supply to the engine. Principally, a fuel pressure test should be done for overall assessment - throwing money on a new pump may or may not provide evidence of a pump failure, but not on finer points…

Ignition is, as you imply, not a prime issue; rpms will fluctuate as a result of fuel starvation. As long as the tacho does not actually drop to zero while the engine is turning; ignition is properly triggered.

The initial quick response after changing the filter implies that pump pressure is ‘adequate’, but as fuel requirements increase while driving it’s plain guesswork whether lack of fuel supply is caused by pump capacity problems or other restrictions. You may choose to replace the pump ‘on suspicion’ - but you should also inspect the changeover valve for signs of debris, and clean as required. If all this restores engine behaviour, you can procede with the essential tank clean-up - for more peace of mind. Knowing that the source of the trouble is identified…:slight_smile:

You’re doing just fine - though a bit roundabout…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

8

Frank, i forgot to mention the most important part!, both thanks where drained before all this operation, with this results:

a) Right one had a lot of debris and rotten brown color fuel (as the old main fuel filter).
b) Left one, just little debris.

Both where fully emptied and cleaned with raw fuel till awful color disappeared.

After that all the no start condition happened, and now i still have my 2 primal suspects, pump and changeover valve.

I still think it’s the pump because i can remember 2 years ago, driving in the highway it will eventually do this kind of RPM bounce when cruising at 100km/h.

But as you recommend, i still have to check changeover, but a new pump is a must for me.

Remember, now the fuel just before main filter is coming almost “clean” just little debris on the line.

Any pump recommendation?

Thanks a lot!!

Ariel

9

Ariel:

Depending on where on our globe you are, the following may be of help:

David Boger at everydayxj, located in one of the Carolinas, I never remember which. Oh, found his fridge add. North Carolina. USA, Good used or possibly NOS. The OEM in my car suits me just fine.

Side bar;

I need to swap out the fuel pump in my venerable Jeep Grand Cherokee. Whew, draing the gas tank and swapping in a pump in my Jaguar was a cake walk compared to what it takes for the Jeeps in the tank pump “module”. No drain plug.
can’t even get a siphon hose in. And about 15 gallons to get out of t!!!

CArl

10

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Having cleaned the tanks, Ariel - the worst is over…:slight_smile:

If you find the changeover valve ‘clean’, the pump is indeed the most likely culprit. The debris likely entered the system from the tank before the clean-up, which may have damaged the pump. However, the main filter is specifically designed to prevent particles entering the fuel rail, to protect the injectors - but the main filter may have ‘overflowed’, and the injectors may cause some symptoms to be watched…

In any case; complete the work on the system by checking the return valves. Open the filler lids and run the pump as previously mentioned; fuel should return only(!) to the selected tank - there should be no return to the ‘non-selected’ tank…

I do of course recommend the OEM pump basically because it is good quality - but also because fitting will cause no problems. Generic EFI pumps will of course work OK - it’s just a matter of getting a pump that will fit the bracket and hose connections…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

11

Thanks a lot!!!

Just waiting for the new pump arrival, and then go for a check ride and see how it works.

Last time drove, the almost die condition with no fuel happened in the middle of the street, had to call the crane to go back to the garage.

When the car left the crane, i could start and park the car in the garage, wired haha.

One more detail, before all this happened, i used to hear backfire through the admission, and reading through the web and the forum, found that lack of fuel can cause this, so the symptom should had been cured long time ago.

Thanks a lot again!!!

Ariel

12

Well have some news here. It’s been a difficult year, but i can manage to get some hands on the jag.

First of all, the old relay bridge for the fuel pump time is over. Inspected all the possible places and found the problem at the AFM, cleaned it all and now the fuel pump works only when cranking and engine started.

New CTS fitted also. The water temp sensor is working fine.

Next i repaired the thermostat housing as it was leaking, no more leaks.

Inspected all vacuum lines but still have to repair and check the accumulator for proper work and heater valve (not important for now).

All the injectors have been professional cleaned, new screen and property checked.

Fuel regulator replaced and vacuum lines checked.

After some tests the car will now almost start without foot, but i have to depress lightly on the accelerator to catch and it will idle.

The idle is a little low, the aav might be malfunctioning, because cold idle around 600/700rpm (idle screw adjusted) and hot around 850/950.

The problem comes when i want to drive the car. When in Neutral it will climb no question asked. When in Reverse and Drive, I feel the transmission engaged and the RPM low to 600/650.

With light accelerator i mean really light the car will start moving, but as soon as i press the accelerator to 40%/50% it will take forever to climb, almost no climb at all. If this would be a carburated one I guess there is a problem with timing or mixture, it feels like a very rich condition, no power.

Also, the intake has some fuel on it, I think the CSI is leaking, i need to figure out a way to block it, and when I have time I’ll replace it with a new unit.

Could it be the CSI making all this mess? Or maybe a bad timing?

Had to check with a timing gun the proper advance.

The O2 sensor is old 5 years, but the car has only been used 1000km at most all this time.

All the suggestions are welcomed.

Hot idling Neutral:

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Hot idling Drive or Reverse:

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RPM climb in Neutral: https://youtu.be/TQVLNUU6U0k

Engine Idling: https://youtu.be/NI_CDzUpKSA

Thanks!

Ariel

13

Fuel supply (volume wise), air supply (throttle body opening fine?), timing - I’d start by hooking up a fuel gauge to where the CTS is, and if it drops under high fuel demand - that would make the most sense. You can have a go at timing by turning the distributor at idle and getting a feel for it. Back off when it knocks uphill in top gear an go for highest possible idle speed.
Is your distributor clamp screw just as unaccessible as mine or is something wrong with the location of mine? It disappears into the coolant hose!)

David

14

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‘…the AAV might be malfunctioning’ is an understatement, pszemia - it does not work properly.

It should be checked; remove the top air hose and look at the slide - it should be about half open when cold, and closed when hot. The point of the AAV is to increase cold idle while cold, to overcome cold engine drag…friction. Without it, the cold idle will be too low for reliable ‘feet off’ starting - and adjusting idle with a the idle screw with a malfunctioning AAV is counterproductive.

If the slide is closed while cold; use a small screwdriver to move the slide - ‘exercising’ it might restore function, it sometimes sticks in goo. If not; replace the AAV…

You may have other problems, reflected in your posting, but a working AAV is rather important for reliable starting and idling…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

15

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Firstly the 'normal chain of events from a well behaved and adjusted engine, pszemia;

Cold start, feet off; engine catches and idle will climb to 200- 400 rpms above hot start idle set. Cold idle in gear will be around 800+, forward or reverse - idling hot; rpms around 750, give or take a tad. The engine should respond to pedal with alacrity; snap to 3500 rpms with half pedal suddenly applied - and accelerate briskly in gear…

Your engine’s pedal response in neutral is indeed sluggish - you show no video on acceleration response, but by your description, it sounds sluggish…

Generally, the xk doesn’t really mind fat running, but in case of a suspected CSI; clamping the fuel hose to it is a conclusive way of eliminating it.

The O2 sensor plays no part in actual engine performance - but with a suspected fuel issue; disconnect the O2 sensor. Connected, it may distort other tests - the engine should run perfectly without the sensor, proving that the basic engine management functions are properly set.

Lack of fuel may be an issue, though this would normally lead to inlet backfires. Apart from a possible air leak; a ‘raw’ and regulated’ fuel pressure test is necessary to clarify…

You should definitely check the ign timing - verifying it is to specs…

Also, I advise checking out the AAV - while it has no effect outside starting and idling; it is still a malfunction issue…

And for the record; what did you actually do with the AFM…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

16

Hi frank, and thanks for your answer.

Here is a pic of the AAV today, in a very hot day (30*C), i think it’s not working right, maybe i have to take it our and try to repair it.

sorry for the pic, it’s very difficult to take on down there:

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I’ve tried to check timing, it’s very dirty down there, have to clean the marker first because the only thing i thing i saw was a 17 mark far away from the marker.

Regarding CSI clamp and 02 disconnect, haven’t done it yet, will try this week to do that.

For fuel pressure, i have to take the car to a mechanic i don’t have the proper equipment for test :frowning:.

Thanks,

Ariel

17

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The picture shows a closed slide, appropriate only if the engine is fully warmed up…so…

Use a small screwdriver in the ‘slot’ and ‘force’ the slide several times. It is spring loaded (bi-metallic spring) - as said; the slide sometimes get stuck in gunk. Some use of CRC 56 or similar cleaning agent together with manipulation may restore function - at least temporarily…

If so readjust idle to 800 - 900 rpms, engine hot and the slide closed. That should solve the starting and idle issues - though the sluggish response have other issues…

The usual US ign advance setting (idling, vacuum disconnected) is indeed 17 deg - and setting it is well worth the effort…

With the ign timing properly set and driving; then try clamping the CSI hose to observe any difference. But if behaviour is OK you may not need a fule pressure test. Though it will do no harm…:slight_smile:

Frank
Xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

18

Well, hands pretty dirty, took a long Time to release thr Distributor holding screw, but no luck, it’s stuck, can’t move it either way. It’s like frozen, O2 disconnected and CSI 12v out, but couldn’t clamp the hose, have to buy a clamp tool to test or a new CSI indeed.

But first want to make sure timing is not an issue.

Any suggestions to release the distributor?

Ariel

19

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Indeed, Ariel…

Some effort in cleaning the scale on the vibration damper enough to run a timing test with a timing light as is - to get some idea of present setting? A dot of white paint on the 17 deg mark (in this case) and the pointer will ease readings…

The dist is held fixed by a ‘C’ pinch plate - with the screw released there is no reason for the dist to stick. You may try spreading the ‘C’ plate, but otherwise it seems like a case for brute force in turning the dist. Before doing so; mark the present position of the dist…

How are you getting on with loosening up the AAV slide…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)
**

20

Well frank, run into a new problem, the worst scenario i think.

The car won’t run, took to the mechanic, got it running, but oil color was bad, very bad fuel smell, and compression check confirmed the worst. Cyl 1 & 2 no compression at all.

The head was replaced 5 years ago, runned for 1000miles top, but apparently the car sitting for long time with some old left fuel on the hoses made some kind of mess.

The mechanic run some tests and told me it could be bad fuel rusting the head or the block, or maybe a stuck open valve on those cylinders because of the bad fuel still on the system.

After the long time sitting, the fuel has been drained, no more brown coming from the tanks, the fuel rail has been cleaned, and also some fuel dropped from the fuel hose at the engine bay, so the old fuel ruining a valve is not my best option, but something happened there.

My only resource here is to remove the head for inspection, but it requiere a lot of work, and sincerely i am not ready to do it again.

So now i am still deciding if going to buy a new head gasket, remove the head and replace head gasket, or left the car parked for a whole new period of time till i have some time to do the heavy work on it.

The block prior to this has been reconditioned and thus involving a higher head gasket according to mechanic recommendation, maybe this not original gasket made some mess down there, but apparently i can’t use the original head gasket or the valves could touch cylinder head and thus making a complete mess down there.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Ariel