[Lumps!] Engine cooling

OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool. I have a 350 TBI engine with I
believe it is a 3 row core standard radiator (pretty sure it isn’t 4 rows
and the cooling fin area is 17 by 26 in size then tanks on each side of
that) and I am running dual electric fans from a late model Firebird that
had a 350 in it which is connected to an adjustable fan thermostat set to
come on at about 89 in the Jag. Brand new water pump and radiator was
rodded out about 2 weeks ago. Radiator shop said it was clean and
unclogged to start with.

I believe that I am OK at an idle with the engine hitting 90 degrees on the
dash gauge, but I haven’t done a LONG period idle test. Going down the
highway with the A/C on climbs the dash gauge up to 100 and stays pretty
close to that. I used to have a single electric Black Magic fan on the
raditor, but it allowed the engine to go up to 110. The dual fans have it
down to 100.

Though 100 isn’t thermonuclear melt down temp, what are my next steps to
keep the cat cool here in the Midwest as our daily temperature is 90F and
the 100F days are coming. Would an aluminum radiator really make a
difference? Or am I just trapping too much heat from the engine there in
the compartment?

Mark
85 VDP 350TBI/T700R

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MarkOn my 2 V8 jags- 1 350 TPI XJS and the other 304 TPI XJ6 I run the 90 Camaro-IROC/Trans Am 5.7 alum/plastic facctory radiator and have never had any cooling problems. The cars actually run cooler on the freeway (as they should), and with a mid-eighties Corvette Camaroin or Firebird factory 17" electric fan I have no trouble in town either. The fan comes on either with a thermostatic switch in the head, or anytime the AC is on. I used to run the brass radiators a while ago- only a 4-row would do the trick, and then just barely, and not nearly as well as these… Now here’s the best part- actually 2 parts. #1- the alum radiator fits the cars like it was made for them- just a small 3x3 hole in the right side of the head plate for filler cap access and you’re done. The stock (Camaro/Firebird) isolators just glue on the top of the radiator lower support and the underside of the header plate, and just bolt the header plate down to hold the radiator in place. And the stock Camaro (molded radiator)hoses will fit perfectly… But the absolute best part is that a brand new Modine radiator of this type was only $122 brand new, and comes with a lifetime warranty. Were you sitting down when you read that? Anyway, I hope that helps Andrew Mark Kelly markk@planetkc.com wrote:

OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool.


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OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool. I have a 350 TBI engine with
I believe it is a 3 row core standard radiator (pretty sure it isn’t 4 rows
and the cooling fin area is 17 by 26 in size then tanks on each side of
that) and I am running dual electric fans from a late model Firebird that
had a 350 in it which is connected to an adjustable fan thermostat set to
come on at about 89 in the Jag. Brand new water pump and radiator was
rodded out about 2 weeks ago. Radiator shop said it was clean and
unclogged to start with. <<

I knew I left something out. I am running a 160 thermostat. I know the
argument for both sides. Cool argument - Cooler thermostat opens sooner
and get coolant flowing and working faster so car isn’t as hot. Hot
argument - Cooler thermostat doesn’t allow the coolant to hang in the
radiator long enough to cool off enough. Don’t want to spark a debate here
like I did with the safety wire question.

Mark
85 VDP 350TBI/T700R

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At 10:26 AM 06/24/2002 -0500, Mark Kelly wrote:

OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool. I have a 350 TBI engine with I
believe it is a 3 row core standard radiator (pretty sure it isn’t 4 rows
and the cooling fin area is 17 by 26 in size then tanks on each side of
that) and I am running dual electric fans from a late model Firebird that
had a 350 in it which is connected to an adjustable fan thermostat set to
come on at about 89 in the Jag. Brand new water pump and radiator was
rodded out about 2 weeks ago. Radiator shop said it was clean and
unclogged to start with.

Mark

I’m working on the same project on my '83 xj6/350/TPI/4L60 currently with a
mechanical fan and a 4-row high efficiency core radiator. Last summer we
tried the FLex-a-lite fan you mentioned with similar results.

As background check the archives, and esp the Lumps FAQs for articles on
engine cooling. I know the archives have information from last summer and
this winter as my project has been ongoing. Also see the XJS archives and
Kirby Palm’s book.

As a general rule aluminum radiators seem to give a higher temperature
delta than copper/brass. That is all things being equal they will lower
the coolant temp more as the fluid cycles through the system. Typically
they are 2-row radiators with one inch tubes.

custom unit. Their recommendation is to install temperature switch(es) in
the cold side tank to activate the fan(s) based on fluid return
temperature. Thus, if natural airflow through the system cools the fluid
enough to keep the engine in the desired operating range, the fan(s) remain
inactive. Once the thermostat opens and hot fluid is flowing through the
radiator the return temp increases. When the temp reaches the switch
activation temp the fan comes on. In a single fan system they recommend a
switch with an activation temp 10 degrees lower then the thermostat. For
two fans they recommend a second switch at the thermostat setting.

If you still have the aux fan from the original Jag installation you can
test this control system by replacing the temp switch with a lower rated
unit (see the archives for application… I can’t remember) and use it
place of the sensor you have now.

From your description of the fans not being able to maintain your desired
temp it sounds like you are down to radiator heat extraction capacity. A
couple of things to remember. A well functioning mechanical fan will
normally move more air than electrics until you get MONSTER
electrics. Electrics are cfm rated at 0 pressure so when you are moving
down the road they move less air due to pressure increases. I don’t know
the GM specs on a TBI but the TPI expects at least 195 F and won’t turn the
stock fan until approx. 226 F. Finally, my concern with heat is in part
old age as my engine is clearly designed with the preceding operating temps.

Hope this helps.

Wes Channell

// list policy dictates that messages be trimmedFrom my research I have about decided to have Howe Racing fabricate me a

In a message dated 6/24/2002 11:29:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
markk@planetkc.com writes:

<< OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool. I have a 350 TBI engine with I
believe it is a 3 row core standard radiator (pretty sure it isn’t 4 rows
and the cooling fin area is 17 by 26 in size then tanks on each side of
that) and I am running dual electric fans from a late model Firebird that
had a 350 in it which is connected to an adjustable fan thermostat set to
come on at about 89 in the Jag. Brand new water pump and radiator was
rodded out about 2 weeks ago. Radiator shop said it was clean and
unclogged to start with. >>
SNIP

Confirm if you have a two, three or four row rad.
If a two row, replace it.
A three row should adequately cool your 350. If you do need a new rad., the
most bang for the buck would be a four row copper/brass…

Here’s a couple of on line sites if you want to check pricing
http://www.radiatorstores.com/
http://www.radiatorexpress.com/part_lookup.asp
NAYY

What is your timing set at??
Does it stay cool when the AC is not on??
Is your gauge accurate??
Sounds like firebird fans should work. What diameter are the dual fans? Are
they free mounted or the type mounted in a plastic shroud?? If shrouded, is
the shroud matched properly to the cooling fin area of 17 by 26 in ??
Have you tried a conventional fan and fan clutch with a ford shroud?? Works
for me.
Have fun,
Rich

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In a message dated 6/24/2002 11:57:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
andrew_jag@yahoo.com writes:

<< Now here’s the best part- actually 2 parts. #1- the
alum radiator fits the cars like it was made for them-
just a small 3x3 hole in the right side of the head
plate for filler cap access and you’re done. The stock
(Camaro/Firebird) isolators just glue on the top of
the radiator lower support and the underside of the
header plate, and just bolt the header plate down to
hold the radiator in place. And the stock Camaro
(molded radiator)hoses will fit perfectly… But the
absolute best part is that a brand new Modine radiator
of this type was only $122 brand new, and comes with a
lifetime warranty. Were you sitting down when you read
that?

Anyway, I hope that helps >>

I like this idea. If I ever need a rad, I would certainly look into this
option.
I like copper/ brass rads probably because, well, I guess I’m just a dinosaur.
But hey, my sh*t works. :wink:
And I don’t need to chop holes in anything ! :wink:
Rich

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At 10:26 AM 06/24/2002 -0500, Mark Kelly wrote:
OK, I need advice on keeping the cat cool. I have a 350 TBI engine with I
believe it is a 3 row core standard radiator (pretty sure it isn’t 4 rows
and the cooling fin area is 17 by 26 in size then tanks on each side of
that) and I am running dual electric fans from a late model Firebird that
had a 350 in it which is connected to an adjustable fan thermostat set to
come on at about 89 in the Jag. Brand new water pump and radiator was
rodded out about 2 weeks ago. Radiator shop said it was clean and
unclogged to start with.

Mark

A friend set me up with a scrapped stacked plate radiator from a small Cat
earthmover he had. It fit into my 85 XJ-S’s almost perfectly. The inlets
weren’t “Chevy” so that took some work. On that, I used two Derale model
16514 fans (rated at 1,350 cfm each) on a shroud I made from a Ford F-150
pickup shroud. My temperature gauge stays right around 85 degrees (my fan
turn on temp) even sitting still in evening traffic with the outside temp at
102 (beating on a black car) as it was two weeks ago.

This is my second Lump I have used this system on and was one of the few
parts I salvaged after the other one was totaled. On this one I used a relay
setup I found in the archives (I think it was Charlie’s design) to which I
added a time off relay to keep the fans on for ten minutes if the temp in
still 85 or higher at shut down. Just for grins I ran a light to my console
that goes on with my fans. It has yet to go on while moving over 35 mph,
even on hot days.

I’m told the stack plate radiators are the best - they work for me. I have
been told that Korman Racing in Greensboro NC is a source for stacked plate
radiators, but I haven’t checked into that.

Stefan
85 XJ-S 350/396 TPI 700R4

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Rich (and list)

I’m actually using a stock temp gauge sender (I used
new ones when I converted the cars), so I think they
are accurate. One either car, the gauge never gets
above half with the AC off, and stays about 1/3 with
it on. I’m running a 180 t-stat as well.

The 17" (single) fan is mounted in a custom fan
shroud that really just looks like a shoebox lid. I
made it myself from 1/4"ABS sheet and no problems in
10,000 miles (my other car has a sheetmetal version of
the same part)

Take a look at this bit of info I posted on the
lumps site:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/lumps/aweinberg/cooling.htm

I’ve been running these radiators for over 5 years
now- not a lick of trouble (only got hot once when a
fan fuse blew- it was corroded). I’ll never go back to
copper/brass…

I hope that helps

Andrew__________________________________________________
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Or am I just trapping too much heat from the engine there in the
compartment?

Even though I’m not having cooling issue I am considering venting the bonnet
in a manner similar to what you would see on Paul Bailey’s body kit @
www.paulbailey.com. Although I like the side vent idea, this seems like alot
less work.

Stefan
85 XJ-S 350/396 TPI 700R4

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I know everyone likes a good buffer zone in their cooling system…as do I.
Nuthin’s worse than worrying about running too hot. Takes all the fun out of
driving !

But, just for the record, the 350 TPI set-ups in Camaros/Firebirds ran
hot-ish to begin with. In most applications the cooling fans were designed
to come on at about 225-230�F. The cars came with 195�F thermostats.

I mention this only because it sounds to me like you’re in reasonably safe
territory and I’d hate to see you pull your hair out needlessly.

I do understand, though, the desire for a comfortable margin in the cooling
system.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA

I believe that I am OK at an idle with the engine hitting 90 degrees on
the
dash gauge, but I haven’t done a LONG period idle test. Going down the
highway with the A/C on climbs the dash gauge up to 100 and stays pretty
close to that. I used to have a single electric Black Magic fan on the
raditor, but it allowed the engine to go up to 110. The dual fans have it
down to 100.

Though 100 isn’t thermonuclear melt down temp,

// list policy dictates that messages be trimmed----- Original Message -----
From: “Mark Kelly” markk@planetkc.com

I know everyone likes a good buffer zone in their cooling system…as
do I.<<

As I said, I am not too worried since I am not running extremely hot, but
just would like to get a better comfort zone in there. I was wanting to
see what ideas I could get to make that happen.

Mark 85 VDP 350TBI/T700R

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