The Jaguar Mark 2 Models Service Manual states that “A packing piece and 8 shims must be always fitted between the wishbone levers and the upper ball joint; their relative positions may, of course, not always be the same.”
The Service Manual also has an image: Figure 15. Shown as an attachment below. This image clearly shows five 1/16" shims to the left of the ball joint and three 1/16" shims to the right accompanied by the wider aluminum packing piece.
Today I installed the shims and packing piece EXACTLY as depicted and described in the Service Manual. Once this is done it is impossible (at least it seems so to me) to mount the rubber bump stop and its bracket to the mounting holes in the wishbones. The holes for the bolts will not align as the wishbones have been separated too far by the 8 shims plus the packing piece! See the photo below and notice how far off the alignment is. By the way, I know the rubber bump stop is upside down.
It has been suggested that the Service Manual might be in error. Based on my experience today, I would have to agree, but this sure seems odd.
Can anyone offer an opinion (it would be nice if it was based on fact and actual experience) about this subject? Could someone check their car and report on the findings?
As luck would have it (for you, not for me), my MK2 is jacked up with the
wheel off so it’s easy to see that there are 5 shims to the rear and the
packing piece alone in the front. I recently spent $135 for the
laser-alignment guy to tell me my alignment is perfect, so this
configuration works.
Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA www.jaguarclock.com
'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2
Is there a chance that you have used camber shims for the castor? The yellow ones at the front look thinner than the plain ones at the rear.
Camber shims come in different thicknesses, but the hole spacing is identical.
From memory, some have one “square” end and one round end, others two round ends. I think I remember the square end ones are for camber, but it is a while ago. I do remember spending some time to measure all the shims and sort them into groups of thicknesses and shapes.
The fact that there is no thread showing past the end of the Nyloc nuts in your photo also indicates that you’ve too much space between the fulcrum arm ends too.
Hello Andrew,
No. I have used castor shims, but your observation is correct. The new yellow zinc shims are .054", slightly slimmer than the .0625" original shims. None of the usual vendors seem to have the original 1/16" - .0625" shims anymore. Of course, if I was to use 8 of the .0625" shims that would make matters even worse.
I have a new theory, but it is only that and I could easily be wrong. Earlier cars had pressed steel upper wishbone levers while newer cars had forged levers. The earlier pressed steel levers used a rubber rebound stop with a single screw mounting and did not mount across the wishbone arms. Although the figure in the manual shown as my attachment shows the later forged levers with eight shims, I wonder if it is an accidental carry over from the pressed steel lever cars?
A friend, Eric Kriss, has a 2.4 and photos of his suspension using the pressed steel levers show 8 shims plus the packing piece. His car also uses the old style rubber rebound stop. See his post with photos here: http://fairislepress.com/WP/?p=2671.
Again, I just don’t see how it is possible to use eight shims on the forged lever cars. When I took my car apart it had the same set-up that Mike Eck describes in his reply post. I am still left with the conclusion that the Service Manual is in error, but I would love to have additional confirmation or an explanation and correction.
Thanks again, Andrew. Also, thank you Mike for taking the time to look at your car!
When I reconditionned my front suspension last winter, I tried too to fit the 8 shims (only 5 were present before the overhaul). I had the same problem with the rebound stop, being unable to fit it with the 8 shims. On top of that, the 2 opposite sides of the upper whisbone assembly (front and rear) obviously were no longer parallel. So, I refitted only the 5 original shims and everything goes well since.
I manged to get all 8 in. My car is from 1962. I had made some of my own of varying thicknesses. Some very thin. It is lost in my dim memory now but there is a relationship between the thickness of the shims and he impact on castor. Wasn’t difficult to make up a selection from bits of scrap sheet metal I had. I used a digital caliper to measure each shim and noted its relevant impact on castor
For final fit I put in the bolt you show as not being aligned and then tapped in the final shims with a light hammer. The WSM states that to adjust the castor you swap shims from one side to the other - not remove them. Different thicknesses allowed me to estimate the impact in the process of setting up the alignment.
To really evaluate is the original instruction to have 8 shims we would have to know the selection of thicknesses in those 8 I guess.
In the absence of that I would suggest removing enough to both align the bolt and ensure that sufficient thread is through the nylock to ensure the assembly is safe. Maybe make up a couple of thinner ones to allow for greater accuracy when the time to actually set the whole assembly comes.
In the end I guess if the assembly is secure, the car drives straight and measures up well then that is the only thing that counts. You will only know that once the car is fully assembled.
It is interesting that so far we have never heard from anyone who has actually seen an original car with 8 shims. I have looked through several service manuals from various publishers and one shows the same exploded picture of the front suspension but it shows the stamped wishbones. Perhaps the factory manual originally had that picture but later changed to the forged wishbones without modifying the number of shims shown. I suggest we follow the advice of the Haynes manual which says to simply put them back the way they were.
So I have removed the three I had added. I am back to the one packing piece toward the front and five 1/16" shims in the rear. We will see what I end up with when I have the car aligned. I have no evidence other than my recent experience and what Mike and others have contributed - but I am convinced the Jaguar Service Manual is in error when it comes to the forged levers.
Lin
just a thought… I would put a few shims on either side. If you have only the packing piece on one side then there is no adjustment available on that side.
According to my Photo records, the car had 5 shims per side (of the car) when I took it apart.
According to the S-Type Parts list, the shims are:
Part Number: c.15308
Description: Shim, for adjustment of Castor Angle (.064" thick)
Plate-Item: 53-18
Qty: 10
So… for the S… 5x 0.064" plus the Al Spacer.
The 420 parts list shows 5 per side as well.
The Mark 2 parts list shows 8 per side
The Mark 2, S and 420 parts list all show identical part numbers for the (upper) Fulcrum shaft and wishbone arms, as well as the B/J
The service manual for the S refers to 8 per side, as does the Mark 2, but I think that must be wrong. I’m guessing that the stamped arms originally had more shims and not everything got updated. Perhaps their Excel macros missed the change.
For what it’s worth, I just consulted the photos that I took before I restored and rebuilt my MK2 front suspension and it too had 5 shims and a spacer block fitted to both suspension sides.
