No Ignition on my '70 XJ6 S1

Are you sure your points are connected correctly? Looking at this photo, it looks as though your coil connection is going straight to ground, rather than through the moving point? IIRC this wire, and the condenser connection, should sit underneath the nylon isolation bush so it connects to the moving point. Plus the lower nylon isolation needs to be in place (hard to tell from photo, but this looks to be there)…

Hi Jöchen,
Well your info are quite useful I did stripped the harness upstream the coil and I feel more comfortable now especially with the leads colour !
I am attaching 2 photos taken after stripping and repairs alongside with comments
White/blue is continuous
White Yellow replaced since I do have a resistor
White coil to tach I need to pinpoint it behind the dash
White/Black is continuous to distributor
Black is grounded in the distributor


I’ll try to crank it again but since I didn’t change nor find anything I am not expecting any sprk !!
All, Your thoughts appreciated
Thanks
Bertrand

Hi all,
I kept searching why 12V were not delivered to the HT coil.
While the white blue lead is OK I then tested the relay on the firewall.
Ingnition on, the white blue lead which should deliver 12V to the coil shows 5.6 volt while connected to the relay. I then disconnected the lead and 0V was on the relay connector itself. I have changed this relay according to the pins layout and position to a brand new Lucas 22RA sold by SNG Barrat P/N36611# in replacement of the C35884 but there is no idication of the type…
I have received it, the pin layout is correct so I got everything connected according to the old one.
However, I checked the old one and I am now having a doubt on the exact model :thinking:
On the picture we can read 6RA on the housing…However 6RA layout is not the same per SNG but there is a very interesting information on the housing “33231E” and comparing both layouts of 6RA 33231E and 22RA as displayed, they are indeed different this should explain the troubles.
I will attached different pix to illustrate the above. BTW as I am a new forum user I can attached only one pix per message :pensive:
Here is why I changed it:

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The genuine 6RA Pins layout:

The genuine 6RA housing:

The 22RA replacement one:

The 6 RA 33231E Wiring layout:
Lucas relays 6RA Layouts

The 22RA wiring layout:

Is the old relay actually broken?

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Can’t you see it’s burned quite badly?
I’d investigate that. How much power does the connected circuit use?

The 22RA seems to switch the same way if you ignore the lettering.

Whichever model you have, try reading the continuity (ohms) between C1 and C2 with the relay operated. It should be 0 ohms (or thereabouts). If not, try burnishing the points and see if it improves. Not a permanent fix, it will need replacing, but a valid troubleshooting technique. But chances are that’s your issue. All those relays have the same basic function and layout, just some have 2 circuits to switch, the others only 1. Two terminals (W =winding ) and the others C=contact. SRB501 uses the same voltage input to feed the winding and the contact, but the effect is the same, just simplifies wiring.

Hi Bertrand
Not sure if you saw my post above so will repeat here with photos and more details.
This is a marked up version of your photo from your post 36 above:

Is this a photo of how your points are installed now? If so, to my eyes this looks as though you have installed the wire to coil directly under the nut on the terminal post, with the nylon top hat isolator below this again. This has effectively bypassed the points, so that while they may open and close ok, they are doing nothing. Both sides of the points are earthed. You will have no spark - your car will never start like this.

This is a photo of my car showing how this connection should be installed, apologies for the picture quality (it also looks like I need to clean this area!). My car runs.

The order, from the top, is nut, upper nylon top hat isolator, wire to coil/condensor wire, points spring blade, lower nylon top hat isolator, base plate.
There is sometimes a tendency to overthink things, whereas it really can be the simple stuff.
Depending what else you have changed through this long exercise you may have to walk back other things you have done.
To summarise, if the points are still like this, please don’t do anything else until you have corrected this.
Good luck.

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Davids answer is interesting

Seeing as you are playing with the Relay

  1. disconnect the main 12V in wire to the relay…does it have 12V ?

  2. disconnect the trigger wire from the ignition …does it have 12V when key is turned ?

refer to the circuit diagram

Hi Dave,

It’s lot easier to understand with pictures! I’ll double check the stacking per your description but more the time passes more I believe I,ve had more than one issue…and the voltage issue is another one as well!

I’ll keep you posted

Bertrand

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**
While doing all this, Bertrand; first disconnect the wire between coil ‘-’ and distributor. Your 5,6V readings indicates that current is flowing (points closed or misconnected). No current should flow in the ignition system or in the starter relay with ign ‘on’ only - all voltages should read either 12V or 0.

The white/blue is not(!) powered unless in ‘crank’ when relay bypasses the external coil resistor - powering the coil ‘+’ directly from the ign key. And while I’m happy you cleaned up the wires to show their proper color - I’m not happy with you changing the white/yellow to white/purple; white/yellow is standard color for wires powered in ‘crank’. In this case; it activates the starter relay…

…and the colors on the relay shown in the picture purple/‘something’ and green are the colors shown, in my diagrams, as belonging to the horn relay! (The black square is a capacitor - a radio noise suppressor)

Are you sure you are working on the correct relay!? The colors shown for the starter relay should be brown, white/yellow, white/blue, white/red, black possibly black/green. And I don’t thing my diagrams are that wrong…:slight_smile:

The principal function of the 22RA relay is illustrated by the wiring layout/diagram. W1 and W2 operates the relay - one is powered in ‘crank’ (white/yellow) the other is grounded. C1 is relay power ‘in’ (brown). C2 and C4 are power ‘out’; white/blue (to coil ‘+’) and white/red (starter solenoid) - or the other way around, it is immaterial. When ign key is released, the relay relaxes - the starter solenoid disengages and white/blue is left unpowered. All this according to standard Jaguar wiring logic - wire colors etc may have been bastardized by POs or whatever - but the functions are the same; wire colors are there just for easy identification.
.
Any relay with the same layout will do, but should be rated at minimum 15A - and the terminals may have different markings, to be sorted. That two contacts, C2 and C4 is used is to spread the load - not really essential, but a precaution…

The ign circuit, according to my diagrams; white from ign key through the tacho and external coil resistor to coil ‘+’. White is powered with ign ‘on’ and in ‘crank’ powering the coil with the engine running. In ‘crank’; white/yellow (now your white purple!) is powered, and activates the starter relay - at the same time connects the white/blue to coil ‘+’. Which is now powered both from the white and the white/blue, but the latter bypasses the external coil resistor - and increases current flow and coil voltage, or vice versa.

As the engine turns; the points closes (to ‘charge’ the coil, current flowing) and opens (to trigger the coil to deliver ign voltage via coil center lead to dist lid). This function is ‘easily’ tested; disconnect wire from coil ‘-’ and measure resistance between the wire and ground while turning the engine. It should vary between ‘0’ (points closed, or shorted to ground) and ‘1’ ( points open). If constant ‘0’; current will be flowing with ign ‘on’ and voltage readings on coil pos will be around 6V. When ‘1’ no current will flow - and all voltage readings will be 12V.

And wiring diagrams do not show the physical location of parts and connections - only sketches out what is connected to what…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

I think this is consistent with what Bertrand recorded way up this thread, and supports my view that his points have been bypassed. Whenever the ignition is on there is current flow to ground, irrespective of whether the points are open or closed.
If he sorts this out and reverts any wiring changes he has made, I reckon there’s a decent chance he’ll have spark…IMHO

Hi Dave,
Per your advice I checked the stacking and the upper nylon isolator is missing…
Let’s do this and see what happens !

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Hi Frank,
Answers comments:
Points misconnected: Dave provided me with a tip to check points isolation and they were not due to a missing isolating washer
wire colour: I’ll change it to white/yellow until I can get some !
The relay shown is NOT the one I am working on. This one is the horn relay !
I am working on the one fitted onto the firewal just behind the engine.
And looks like we are using the same diagram hopefully
So I’ll run further testing this afternoon my time
Bertrand

Hello again everyone,
Despite the modifications suggested by Dave, the points are grounded again… :rage:
So I decided to check the “brand new” HT coil, not for the continuity/resistance but for the ground itself, and guess what? There is continuity between the “-” and…the coil housing !!!
SNG is sending me a replacement unit today I should get it to morrow or wednesday the latest
There’s a lot in my plate ahead to fire my XJ!!! :joy: :joy: