Hmm i have just had a definitive answer from Pirelli who said that they supplied 15" and 16" Cinturato to Jaguar in 1963
Any 16" Pirelli supplied to Jaguar in 1963 would have been for a used car. Perhaps they meant supplied to Jaguar dealers for sale to people with older cars.
Is there any interest in date codes for Pirellis? I have a set of 6.00 x 16" Pirelli Rolle whitewalls and have always been curious about their age.
I spoke to the guy at Dunlop again and he wasnât too surprised the info was incorrect. Dunlop has changed hands four times over the last 70 years . All the old records went to National Motor Museum, Beaulieu UK and suggest they could maybe help if any one wants to try .
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for this information which I think may be important. So the next time we visit the Autojumble we should couple an additional week of holidays and make arrangements with the National Motor Museum acrchive staff.
Had a quick look at their archives on the internet but couldnât find any Dunlop reference apart from what Dunlop did for âThe Bluebird Project Lake Eyre February to May 1963â. Would be nice if there was an archive survey available of what they have related to e.g. Jaguar and all of their components suppliersâŚ
Bob K.
I will put some life back into one of my favourite subjects genuine extras on XKâs - Tyres
I tripped over this the original invoice for XK140 roadster S800019 [140CHK] from authorized jaguar agent Scott Brothers date 17th March 1955. Tires supplied on this new XK140 roadster âMichelin Xâ 5 pounds
For reference leather grain hood does not mean leather but a vinyl with a leather looking grain finish as opposed to mohair so in fact it would have been the same material and finish as the tonneau cover which werenât done in mohair.
Canât wait for comments!
Terry:
My 1959 XK150S FHC is fitted with Pirelli Centurata tires mounted on Borrani wire wheels. Under JCNA Concours Rules, both are considered inauthentic. (Also an original Derrigton 16â wood rim steering wheel.) This has not been a problem for me because JCNA has a class for âmodifiedâ cars (S2/MOD) for those cars with forty or more penalty points for inauthentic items.
My XK150S FHC was restored to be entirely authentic. The penalty points for the tires, wire wheels, and steering wheel got me most of the way to 40 points. I also use an XK 120 Alloy era jack, an XK 140 grease gun, and similar methods to get over the required 40 authenticity penalty points.
The S2/MOD Class is open to all Jaguar models and is one of the most competitive in JCNA Concours. For 2018 we came in 2nd Place - North America.
Do you have a similar class in AUS?
Tom Wright
February 17
I will put some life back into one of my favourite subjects genuine extras on XKâs - Tyres
I tripped over this the original invoice for XK140 roadster S800019 [140CHK] from authorized jaguar agent Scott Brothers date 17th March 1955. Tires supplied on this new XK140 roadster âMichelin Xâ 5 pounds
For reference leather grain hood does not mean leather but a vinyl with a leather looking grain finish as opposed to mohair so in fact it would have been the same material and finish as the tonneau cover which werenât done in mohair.
Canât wait for comments!
Dealer invoices donât count in JCNA judging. The car must be as it left the factory not the dealership
"as per makers specification ex works" may have adequately covered this point you canât get much clearer than that!
The items on that invoice were not fitted by the dealer that car was delivered to them as it was sold!
terry
Terry,
If you keep repeating a lie, it still remains a lie, and its only yourself that you are kidding.
This is from an internal memo contemplating possible options, but as has been clearly pointed out to you SEVERAL times, never happened. There were all sorts of legal problems with a manufacturer such as Jaguar, offering factory equipped (thus Legal responsibility) radial ply tyres in the late 1950s, such that there were a number of rules introduced regarding speed ratings and special radial ply tyres markings, such that Jaguar indeed sent out a memo to all their Dealers warning them about how to handle customer requests for the dealer to fit radial ply tyres - as Jaguar themselves would NOT.
It wasnât until speed ratings and radial ply tyre markings were introduced in the early 1960s that Jaguar finally were technically and legally happy enough to fit original equipment radial ply tyres.
Your Scott Bros invoice - as Pat and Tom quickly pointed out - is little more than a Dealer Invoice, so no different from the belief that the French Jaguar Distributor also fitted Michelin X on a handful of new customer cars, at specific Customer request (and account). Certainly no indication/proof of Jaguar original equipment fitment.
But keep trying - maybe after 100 failed efforts you will give up!
Tom I have to say to put extra wrong things in a car to achieve a few more errors so you qualify for a class is absolutely absurd who comes up with these sorts of rules?
Tom,
WHat most people do in Australia is run two sets of wheels and tyres if they want to both regularly drive their car, but also enter it into an ACJC (our equivalent of JCNA) sanctioned Concours.
Radial Ply tyres and Borrani wire wheels will also be heavily debited in an ACJC Concours as NOT being authentic for a 1959 XK150. If you want to have these for normal road use thatâs fine - your choice/preference. But if you want to enter car in a Concours, then fit some Dunlop 16â x 5" 60-spoke wire-wheels, silver painted or chromium plated, and fit a set of (any brand) 6.00 - 16 cross-ply (bias ply) tyres then no deductions. (ACJC rules on this are same as JCNA)
Your XK120 Jack and XK140 Grease Gun - clearly have no place on an XK150 competing in a Concours, and both are easily fixed with authentic items.
An internal memo you would dearly love a copy of that clearly states these are the accessories/items whatever you want to call them that Jaguar were charging customers to fit to there cars fully priced and whilst the authors considered there were to many options they continued to sell them something about making money.
Your comments on 1950âs regulations re tire safety and Jaguar is totally unproven that they specifically took this into account.
The invoice clearly noted "as per makers specification ex works" adequately covers the point this car left the jaguar factory as it was sold the dealer hasnât changed the tires at his workshop.
And unfortunately like you I am just as stubborn and wonât give up eventually enough bits of info will come together to prove as always I am right!
terry
and body colour
taking into account correct number of spokes and hopefully no new wheel made by Dayton or MWS as both are completely wrong from the point of of authenticity.
Roger:
You are missing the point of my comments.
I intentionally entered the JCNA Concours Class of S2/MOD so that I could fit the non authentic wire wheels, tires and steering wheel. The other non authentic items were to obtain additional penalty points to gain access to the S2/Mod Class.
I can compete at the highest level of JCNA competition in either the S2/MOD Class or in the Champion Division. My XK150S FHC is completely authentic except for the type of items mentioned so that if I chose to compete in the JCNA Champion Division I could make the changes you suggest. But I have a choice and I like period correct and correctable changes that I have made. (I still have the Moss gearbox with OD and stock engine, Imperial Maroon exterior with Tan interior).
I take it that AUS Concours do not have an similar Class.
Tom Wright
Oh, good grief.
âŚ
Terry,
Thatâs FAILURE No.101!
You cannot even read a Dealers Invoice properly!
The "as per makers specification ex works " clearly applies only to the main entry invoiced at GBP1233 15s. Then add purchase Tax of GBP515 3s 9d.
You err in thinking this statement also applies to the Michelin X tyres. As you know from other factory information, and advice to their Dealers, Jaguar Cars Ltd were NOT prepared to accept the legal/liability risk in the 1950s of supplying Radial Ply tyres as original equipment.
Thatâs correct.
Your choice what you want to do in JCNA events, and for whatever reason.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting document.
Do I understand the term âex worksâ to mean the buyer Mr. J. E. Brett bought this car straight off the lot, i.e. from the Colchester dealerâs inventory or stock, in the SE specification as it came from the factory? Not a special options order placed with the factory?
He then bought a close ratio gearbox, a 3.31 rear axle, a set of Michelin tires, and an extra black hood? Plus paid for 8 gallons of fuel and 5 pints of anti-freeze?
I understand the purchase tax added on each item.
Then there is a deposit of 100 pounds.
And a reduction of 4 pounds 9 and 3 for a reason not given.
But where is the labor charge for the installation of the gearbox and axle?
Did the dealer install them for free, or did the buyer take them home and do it himself?
What happened to the old gearbox? Was the ID plate re-stamped?
I confess that I see this term ex-works often enough, and since we do not use it in my country, I donât really know what it implies and what it does not imply.
Rob,
You would need to see the Jaguar Cars Ltdâs Invoice to Scott Bros to know what the factory did or did not supply. I cant be 100% without seeing the Jaguar invoice, but typically that would include the initial XK140 âas per Makers specificationâ , ex-Works at GBP1233 15s, plus any other factory options asked for by Scott Bros placed at or soon after placing the original order, so I think most likely also the Close Ratio Gearbox, and the 3.31 rear axle, and I dare say the 8 gallons of Petrol and the 5 pints of coolant were invoiced as well, although no delivery charge factory to Scott Bros.
The Black Leather Grain Hood being invoiced as an additional is strange, given it is shown in the main invoice already, so maybe thatâs just case of how Scott Bros prepared their Customer Invoice.
But the Michelin Tyres will be totally Scott Bros invoice, and probably passing on the Invoice from the local supplier of Michelin X Tyres.
But you really need to see the Jaguar Cars Ltd invoice on Scott Bros to be sure.
There are a number of these Jaguar Cars Ltd invoices surviving, and each are made up to suit the specific order. One I have is a series of back and forward correspondence including Invoices, buyer to dealer to Jaguar and back, ordering a very highly optioned/specified 3.8 mod cww Mark 2, one of the very first made, but wanting/delaying delivery and registration to be on the 1st January 1960. Dealer and Jaguar were very very accommodating - clearly a favoured customer.
The invoice is as exactly it states âas per makers specification ex worksâ so everything on that list was on the car as ordered by the customer from the dealer and as they ordered it from Jaguar cars. Ie the car arrived at Scott bros with the CR gearbox, the 3.31 diff, the leather grain hood, the Michelin tires (these were all factory offered accessories) and 8 gallons of petrol noted at works. the factory records note how much petrol was in each car at time of despatch. The 5 pints of Bluecol I donât whether this was factory delivered!
The 4:9.3 credit was it appears for an overcharge or a reduction in the cost of black leather grain hood from 6:6.0 to 3:3.0 and therefore less PT
terry