[OT]And You Thought Changing An E-Type Starter Was Hard

E-Type
1

As I have, unfortunately discovered. My two DDs are BMWs - a 2001 325i (bought new) and a 2007 335i (bought two years ago for a measly $13K!). About ten days ago, the transmission in the 325i (a very nice 5-speed automatic) suddenly and catastrophically failed, after a mere 16-1/2 years and 220K miles! No forward motion whatsoever, and only crawls in reverse.

Now, I’ve done ALL work on these cars for years. And the think I really like about BMWs is that they are about the easiest cars to work on I’ve ever seen. Until yesterday, I’d not seen ANY job on those cars that was particularly difficult, and most have been remarkably easy.

So, when the tranny dies, I thought “No big deal - Find a used slush box, and swap it out!”. Well, not so fast as it turns out. The 325i came with two different trannys - the ZF, and a GM. GMs are a dime a dozen. The ZF, which my car has, is actually pretty hard to come by, and a LOT more expensive. And, no, they are NOT interchangeable. But, I got kinda lucky, in that the only low-mileage one I could find anywhere was right here in Santa Cruz! And it was “only” $1200, as opposed to ~$400 for a GM.

Anyway, I took the tranny out yesterday. While I won’t claim it was fun, it wasn’t really THAT bad except for two things: First, half of the bolts that fasten it to the engine are all but inaccessible. I had to use, literally, 4-5 FEET of extensions on a ratchet wrench, and a LOT of patience to even FIND the heads of the 5 TORX bolts around the top. But the REAL pi$$er was that unlike ANY other engine I’ve ever worked on, the starter actually bolts to the bellhousing, not the engine! With the bolts removed, the starter was still SECURELY locked to the bellhousing, preventing the transmission from coming off the engine! The two were held together by a single ~1/4" dowel pin, which was apparently rusted in place. I had to use a looooooong piece of steel pressed up against the very small, exposed back face of the starter, and whack on the other end of the steel to break them apart, so the tranny would come out.

The starter is up under the intake manifold, completely covered by hoses, wiring harnesses and a ton of other stuff. I quite literally could only SEE a very small part of it, and could barely touch it with the tips of my fingers. I don’t have a single clue how you could possibly replace the starter, without removing the intake manifold from the engine. I don’t even know how I’m going to get it re-attached once the new tranny is in place. But I can say, for sure, changing THAT starter out would make doing a E-type starter look like childs play.

Regards,
Ray L.

2

Yuck…sounds like no fun!!

When I had to change the starter on my Hyundai Accent, it’s under the intake manifold, in the back of the engine, under the cable shift mechanism, above the right side CV shaft, and bolted to the tranny.

It took me three hours…and, yes, I could have done the E faster.

3

The starter on your E is bolted to the bell, not the engine, Ray. :slight_smile:

Pete

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See? Had you been driving an autobox Jag, not some piece of modern junk, ya might have made 240,000 miles…:joy::joy::joy::joy:

5

Hi,

Last time I took a starter out of an E-type was about one month ago, a Series 2 2+2, it took me 20 mins and we had the starter in our hands, off the car! :slight_smile:

What helped, was that the air filter was out already, but we did take the reservac out and what made it shower was that the car has A/C so the unit was slightly in the way for the firewall access to the starter bolts.

I have heard of Merc’s where you have to drop the engine to change spark plugs.

Cheers,

Pekka T. - 1S20183
Fin.

6

Dont ever work on a Sumbeam Tiger…:confounded:

7

So, are you telling us the E Type is easier to work on than the BMW, ie, you wish you were changing the E Type transmission, instead of the BMW transmission???
Tom

8

Ugh"

  1. The guy next door has a Nissan Maxima, just like his Mom’s. Nice looking cars and apparently pleasing to many. He does a lot, but not all, of his own work. Flipped cars for while. Buy sick ones, fix 'em sell 'em. Decided that the Maxima deserved a new set of spark plugs for it’s FWD V6. Whoah, after removing all the decorative engine covers, the rear bank is under the cowl and the intake! Removal of at least the latter needed. Not to mention a bunch of other stuff on it. Deferred, applied “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.

  2. Thinking back to my critters over the decades, all but the present “lump” have had Bell housing mounted starters.

The “early” SBC in my “lumped” 51 Willys 4x4 pickup had a bell housing mounted Delco. My guess an early 60’s 283.

The later SBC’s, my LT1 included, have the Delco mounted to the block. The two bolts go straight up into threaded holes in the block. Easier to do with the original rear dump exhaust manifolds. A tad harder with the center dump Ram horns needed in the Jaguar install. Two areas of “fun”. 1. Holding the starter up in place with one arm nd getting the two bolts started with the other .Tough with the original “big” Delco Remy. much easier with a much lighter and smaller GR. unit.
Did it a few times, I found what was killing the starters !
2. Wiggling in the tin fly wheel dust cover. More than a few SBC powered cars running around sans dust covers, I see why

3… I can only image the carnage at the wreckers in extracting Bimmer engines and transmissions.

Carl

9

Morning Ray,
Once again your an inspiration to this home mechanic, I don’t like working on my daily drivers and thus far I have only 190K miles on my little '96 Merc but you give me the confidence to consider such a task when that day comes… Like your BMW’s I have found that it’s generally a well designed car that has been pretty straight forward to work on and the repair manual is well written.
Still, I would, as I’m sure you would, rather work on my Jag’s.
Cheers,
Lynn

10

Ray- your ZF doesn’t happen to be a 5HP24? If so you were very lucky to get 220K miles on it! These have a known design flaw in the clutch A basket where the top ring of the basket tears away, giving exactly the failure mode you describe. The 5HP24 in my DD Audi S8 gave out at only 120K miles. Rebuilt trans is doing fine so far, but this may explain why you had difficulty getting a replacement.

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And THAT is yet another telling statement WRT to another thread, dealing with whether old cars are as good as new. 30+ years ago, your above statement woulda been met with great laughter, and/or howls of disbelief!

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Doug,

Close. It’s a 5HP19, which is rather notorious for having exactly that failure on the reverse clutch drum. But mine has worked flawlessly for 16-1/2 years, so I can’t feel too bad. They did change the design in '03, and the replacement I’m putting in came from a 2004 330i, so should have the updated design. I am going to take the pan off the old one and see if I can spot the failure. I suspect it is a clutch drum failure, as I don’t see what else could possibly cause a total loss of motion in a split-second, as happened.

Regards,
Ray L.

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True that- 30 years ago most cars were throw-aways at 100K miles.

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Pete,

Badly worded on my part. On most engines, the starter is bolted to BOTH the crankcase and bellhousing, and when you remove the bolts the starter simply falls off. This one is mounted ONLY to the bellhousing, NOT the engine. And because of the dowel, removing the bolts left the starter still VERY securely attached to the bellhousing, making it impossible to move the transmission, as the starter was hanging forward over the engine.

Regards,
Ray L.

15

Lynn,

What I love about the BMWs, is it is clear they actually considered repair efforts when designing the cars. At first sight, they appear to be a nightmare to work on, but are actually very easy. For example, first time I looked at the water pump, I thought “I can barely even see it, I can’t imagine how I’d get to it to replace it”. But, it’s actually trivial - Remove the engine-mounted cooling fan using a 32mm wrench, remove one screw and one plastic expansion rivet, and the fan and shroud lift right out. Total elapsed time - under 2 minutes. Drain the coolant, disconnect the hoses from the pump - total elapsed time maybe 5 minutes, most of that just waiting, allowing the coolant to drain fully. Undo four easily accessible bolts, and the water pump pulls right out. I bet I could swap out the pump, start to finish, in under 1/2 hour.

One time the HVAC blower started making noise, due to a dry bearing. On most cars, there are few jobs worse than removing the HVAC blower. Not the BMW - 15 minutes, and it was out. Another 15 to put it back in.

To get the trans out, the engine must be tilted back until the head hits the firewall. Even that is not quite enough, however. So the HVAC “cowl”, and a section of firewall below it must come out, to allow the engine to tilt down further. A total of 6 screws, two quick-release fasteners, and 10 minutes later there is a gaping hole in the fire wall for the engine to tilt into.

Noe, the exact OPPOSITE of this is VWs and AUDIs - the only two cars I will NEVER work on. Every single time I’ve tried, it’s turned into a living nightmare. Replacing front wheel bearings on my sons '97 Jetta years ago, turned into a 5 day, $800 repair, and EVERY single step of the process was incredibly difficult. The only “difficult” thing I’ve seen on the BMW is getting the !@#$%^& springs hooked back into the rear parking brake shoes, because the hub is in the way. Everything else - easy. I’ve replaced driveshaft u-joints, the water pump, radiator, cam sensors, crank sensor, and one wheel bearing. I’ve un-upholstered and re-stitched the drivers seat, and the rear seat back, replaced the climate control computer (3 minutes - start to finish!), and even repaired electrical and electronic problems. In fact, the very first repair I did myself was an electronic problem - the climate control lost power, due to a blown fuse. Replace the fuse, and it would blow again immediately. Got the factory manual, for the wiring diagrams - all 470 PAGES of wiring diagrams. I spent 15 minutes understanding how to READ the diagram, and in 5 minutes, the problem was fixed!

Regards,
Ray L.

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Well… I got energetic, and opened up the failed tranny. To my surprise, the problem was obvious, and could even have been fixed for about $200, WITHOUT removing it from the car! It was actually an electrical fault - the output shaft speed sensor (an inductive pickup) apparently shorted, and melted. What remains is an amorphous blob of black and brown plastic, with two wires coming out of it. It also damaged the internal wiring harness. The sensor is about $60, the harness about $130, and both could easily be replaced by simply removing the pan, the oil filter, and the valve bodies - about 30 minutes to take it apart, another $30 minutes to put it back together. Add in about $250 for a new filter and oil change, and the whole job could’ve been done in about 90 minutes, for about $450, rather than the $1200 it’s costing to put in the used tranny.

Regards,
Ray L.

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Bingo.
son just had that job done. Intake manifold has to come out. (330 CI)

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Hi Ray, I have owned three BMWs and for the most part they were easy to work on HOWEVER with out any doubt the worst job on any car, was to change the master cylinder for the clutch on my 89 535. It is located under the pedal behind the firewall. You can not see it but only feel it! 3 days later it was changed. I used a mechanics mirror, being a dentist I am more than comfortable with mirrors, but still what were they thinking? Happy Thanksgiving, yes VW and Audi are THE worst cars to work on.
Best,
Allen

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Thats how we learn to be experienced mechanics…:frowning:️