Pixxed off with the colour match

This is a 1971 Daimler Sov (XJ S1) in “Jaguar Light Blue”. No code in those days so nothing scientific to go on. I have just had some front end repairs done by the same body shop that repaired the cills a few years ago. In between in did some paintwork myself on the rear quarter panels.

So - for the cill job a few years ago the body shop had the paint “colour matched” by a scanner but the paint came out noticeably darker when applied to the cills. All sorts of excuses but I accepted it because the cills are low level and the mismatch was not obvious unless you grovelled on the ground and looked closely.

A couple of years later I had two lots of paint mixed by a different company when I painted the rear quarter and valence panels myself. One was based on a “library” mix and the other based on a fresh scan of another body panel. Neither was right and neither matched the other either. All sorts of excuses from the paint supplier about “pastel shades” being “difficult” and implications that a “professional” would have been able to blend it in, but again I accepted it because the bumper line breaks the appearance of the mismatch on the panels.

For this last job I agreed a paint swatch with the body shop before proceeding. For some technical reason the paint supplier couldn’t match the “formula” of the swatch he provided earlier so he took another scan of the body paint. And now the finished paint job on the front wings does not match either the swatch or the existing paint on the bonnet.

Am I expecting the impossible here or is this the best paint shops can do? Either way I now have a multi shaded Jaguar light blue car and feel pretty pixxed off.

Frankie

Hi,

FWIW I am pretty sure it was the same ”Light Blue” as used on E-types 1968-1972 that was the beginning of the infamous BL era. But on a positive note, codes and samples do exist, should be easy to recreate.

It replaced the popular ”Opalescent Silver Grey” 1961-1968, most metallics were deleted in 1968, for unknown reasons. Only Silver aka Opalescent Silver Grey was still available standard in 1968-1975. Cheers!

Ps. The original paint has faded due to sunshine and age, but a good painter should know how to compensate.

I’m sure you’re right about the E-type blue. So, where do I find the code for that?

One of my frustrations here is that paint suppliers seem unable to re-produce exactly the same colour twice. If I could achieve accurate replication that would be half the battle. The paint supplier I used for the quarter panel mix was reluctant to give me the “formula” and basically said that it will come out of the mixing machine slightly different every time. Really?!

Frankie

Matching color faded paint is an art, not a science. If you are getting it from a supplier they can only either follow a formula in a database or try to get it from a scan which will only get you close - especially if they didn’t scan the exact area you are trying to match.

A (good) body shop on the other hand will take your base color and do spray-outs to examine the match, and then tint your base with continued spray-outs until they are happy with the result.

Don’t blame the paint supplier mixing your color. They can only do so much.

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Frankie,

on my car (Fern Grey) the PO had a part repaint of the right side of the car on the basis of the available paint code, but unfortunately they missed that there were two ever so slightly different colour tones of Fern Grey on SI and SII cars. Of course, they got the wrong one (the effect is visible, the reason is my own explanation).

To prove the possibility of matches, in 2019 I had some rust repair done to my right front wing (repainted in 2006 with the wrong colour) and - while they were at it - some sprayed part repairs on the rear left wheel arch, and the left sill (original colour 1975). The painter presented his perfect work full of pride as he had adapted the colour mixed for the wing on the right side to match also the original colour on the left side.

Modern tech may help, but in the end it’s old school craftsmanship you need to find. I once knew the son of a guy running a well-established car painting shop. Unfortunately, the son was colour-blind … for a good reason he chose a different profession than his dad.

Keep searching for a good painter - btw I found on the Glasurit web site the colour code JFD for Jaguar Light Blue 1968-1973; another website http://classicjaguar.com/cj/paintcodes.html indicated old colour code JA021, new colour code 7413, Glasurit code JAG-507.

Good luck

Jochen

75 XJ6L 4.2 auto (UK spec)

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I, too have an S1 Sov in light blue. AFAIK, there is 1 code for the colour from '68 through to '73, but there are definitely 2 different shades. The early one is a pastel blue and also available on S2 E Types ( and 240, 340 I presume) and the later shade has a slightly grey look to it and appeared at the same time as the S3 E Type, but the paint shops ( I have been to) only list one code for the years 1968 to 1973



This is the code and the colour is the later shade. (Not correct for my car 1970 Sov, but I actually prefer it and am doing a total respray anyway)


Not sure if you can spot the difference, but this is the earlier shade ( original paint)

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Hi Frankie, we have a select group of guys here called “sight matchers”. I have a friend with this skill. He prepared and painted my RH guard and it is a perfect match to the bonnet in any light. Gets near with the formula and perfects by sight. He’s old like most of us. Maybe you need to find a similar guy for your next job. Paul.

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Colour matching is extremely difficult and it’s not just colour, the gloss element is also difficult to match and I have heard of painters adding matting agents to match a cars previous finish.

Paint does vary and even nominally the same colour from different factories will look different. My solution was to do the whole car…

PS I always wanted a Jaguar light blue car

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A few years ago I was working on an XKE…a few-years-old restoration… where the paint was checking on the decklid. Took it to a painter with a reputation for expert color matching.

We had the original mix code but, still, it took numerous re-mixes to get it just right. I wanna say it was 10 or 12 re-mixes. To my eye the match is 100% perfect but in reality might be only 98%. In any case I seriously doubt anyone would spot a difference unless they knew ahead of time that it had been repainted.

And, as I think has been mentioned, it isn’t just the mix. It’s how the paint is applied

It wasn’t an inexpensive repair. If 97% was tolerable result the job could’ve been done for less than half the money, I reckon :slight_smile:

Cheers
DD

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When I worked in Imperial Valley I became acquainted with two younger guys that ran a collision shop. One brother did the estimates and glass work. The other did the paint. Most was on repaired cars. matching a definite need. No scan tech available yet, Just skill. Uusaully he polished the entire car so the bright new paint as not in contrast with oxidized faded paint. Common in the very hot clime. or, paint an entire panel and the adjoing panel, thus moving the sight line. Or making the new color a bit less shiny to match the less than very shiny other parts of the car. Or, merely a light buff if any so as to not be too shiny…

The cars were always thoroughly detailed and much cleaner than the last time the owner saw them… .For entire paint jobs. The shop specialty was baked enamel. They had a booth for those…/ .

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Well, thanks all for your sage advice. I have calmed down a bit now but I was hopping mad at the time, can tell you.

I’m sure you are all correct and it is the skill of the painter/body shop that makes the difference. I say that partly because other issues are coming to light now I have the car back and can inspect it properly. I have spent much of today tidying up poor finishing work by the body shop and will be doing the same again tomorrow. Items such as new underseal applied over old peeling underseal, fault in wiring serving off side headlight, chrome headlight rings fitted too tight and taking paint finish off headlight recess in wings, bumper to body clearance inconsistencies. There is a poor alignment where the front lower valance meets the bottom of the wing on each side and I’m still trying to work out what has gone wrong there. I am not a professional and major rectification work is beyond my skill set but I’ll correct what I can and take the car somewhere else for the next time.




Frankie

Fascinated to hear what you say Kevin - that is exactly my position. The bonnet is greyish light blue and much of the rest of the car a milkier light blue. I had agreed with the body shop that they would match the greyish blue (which I also prefer) but the paint supplier apparently scanned the wrong panel and the work was done in the milkier shade.

Just so I am clear on this, as far as you know there is only one code (as shown in your photo) but there are two shades? I guess a scan or trial and error plus painters skill is the only way to get this colour then. I will keep trying!

Frankie

H Frankie,
Back in 1977, I was having my 3.8 E resprayed and wanted it to be the light blue of the S2 cars I had seen ( Do you have End of an era by Chris Harvey? There’s an S2 roadster in there) Long story short, even back then I could not find the correct shade and ended up with the greyer S3 colour, so AFIK, there has only been one shade ( listed in NZ, at least) for LIght Blue. Cotswold Blue is possibly a closer match. Check out XKEData\color catalogue or XJ6data.com for some images. XKEdata


only lists light blue '69-'72.
This is probably the correct shade.

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Things are going from bad to worse here and I would appreciate views on my options.

When I took the car to the body shop I also loaned them a S1 bare metal front wing as a pattern so they could see how it was supposed to be.

You will see for my earlier photos that there is obvious misalignment between the valance (which they did not fit) and the wings (which they re-shaped and repaired). If I measure the loaned wing from the tip of the lower edge to the body mounting position at the top it is about 1/2" shorter than the RH wing they re-shaped. The other side is not as bad but it’s certainly not good. This difference in measurement is the amount of the misalignment offset and has to be the cause. It is probably the reason the bumper doesn’t align equally with the wings at both ends as well. So - the re-shaping work was cxxp.

I have now reached the point where there is so much to rectify I can’t do it myself. What do I do?

I could take it back and ask them to do it again but I have zero confidence they will get it right - otherwise why was it so bad in the first place? What else is there under the paint that is also poorly done - will the rust come through after next winter etc?

Secondly I could take it elsewhere and use the money I owe the first shop to fund rectification and pay any surplus balance to the first repairer. If it costs more to rectify than the first guys outstanding bill I will have to shell out the balance myself.

Thirdly I could just refuse to pay anything and have the rectification work done when the car is resprayed complete (a long term objective).

I like option two. What do others think?

Frankie

I think you should talk to your painter before doing that because I believe the legislation is that you have to give the supplier a chance to rectify work.

If you go straight to the nuclear option of non payment you are setting up an adversarial situation (I understand this is very attractive, but it’s not pragmatic) which may cause a lot of stress and ultimately money. And no matter how right you believe you are, if it went legal it could be disproportionately costly and there is not a guarantee of success. Is the poor valance/wing match an issue with their wings or your valances they may say for example.

It’s possible that you may be able to agree option 2 with the supplier - they may be glad to get the car away at any cost. So it’s worth suggesting that as a starting point. But Jaw is better than War.

On a separate point: What do you want to tell us about the footwear in your last photo? :slight_smile:

I’m very sorry to hear of your predicament; it must be very distressing. Certainly the work appears to be very sub-standard, and even as a non-tradesman, I would be embarrased to present it as my own work. I do agree with with Bertiebloke that your first course of action should be to talk to the workshop and see if they think that is what they consider quality work. I might sound old fashioned, but I believe panel beaters these days can’t actually do any work that involves anything beyond bolting on a new panel that is pre-painted. Hopefully the shop foreman is old-school and has a bit more pride in his work, but I wouldn’t bet on it. BTW, the mounts for the valence below the bumper are slotted, so that misalignment can probably be remedied, as can the bumper offset. Panel fit on these cars was never particularly good, so there’s often plenty of adjustment. You may be able to remedy this yourself ( as a last resort) and learn a bit more about your car while doing it. Not rocket science, although it can be frustrating. Good luck.

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That was my general understanding too. I would of course “talk to” the body shop first, but would have thought there was a point at which the work was so negligent that there was no reasonable expectation of it being done properly. If he can’t see a 1/2" panel misalignment he doesn’t deserve to be in business. He is a sole trader so its not as if he can give the rectification work to a fresh pair of eyes.

When I took the car there we discussed various options, including using the spare wing in its entirety, or the purchase of a “repair panel” for the front end. We specifically agreed that he would call me when the wing was stripped down so I could inspect and we would decide together how to do the job. That call never came and the next time I saw the car, the wings were in primer. I am therefore left with a chunky feeling of distrust and suspicion that he didn’t want me to see the quality of what he was doing.

If I decline to let him do it again what is the worst he could do? Sue for loss of profit I suppose and frankly I would prefer to pay him off and call it a day. I don’t suppose the loss of profit would be that much once you take into account the other job/s he would have to pass up/losses he would incur to fit mine in for rectification.

Frankie

Before retirement I was “a suit” but always a Jag Lover and historically a Jag owner in my teens/early twenties. My father was in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) and taught me a lot about vehicles - my mother was less than enthusiastic however when father said it was OK to dismantle my Daimler V8 cylinder heads on the kitchen table. Anyway, the point is that now I have the time to learn more and do more challenging work on my cars. I can weld (after a fashion), and fill and paint (with the occasional run) but sheet metal fabrication at the moment is a bridge too far and is why I went to this body shop to cut out the rust/filler and make up/fit repair panels.

I fitted and painted the new front and rear valances myself last year and that involved a fair amount of modification to the poor fitting after market panels supplied but the result was satisfying and pleasing. I am no stranger to making panels fit correctly so I know what is possible in the work they have just done to the wings. Their omission seems to have been the stage of trial measurement/fitting/alignment before final shaping fixing and painting.

Having fitted the front valance I acknowledge what you say about adjustments but bear in mind that the valance is bolted to the crossmember and the wings are bolted to the valance; losing 1/2" will involve bending something somewhere and I’m not keen to do that on a panel I only fitted last year.

When I take a car in for body repairs I expect to get back something better than I sent in - I don’t expect to have to trade off improvements for defects and pay for the privilege.

My present thinking is that I will take the car back, make clear my preference for “option 2” and hopefully they will see it as their least worst option as Bertie Bloke suggests. If they insist on having another go I will need to agree some very clear conditions regarding interim inspections of the work in progress, final inspection of the completed rectification, timing of payment and so on. Hopefully they will get the message.

Thanks for you good wishes!

Frankie

The first shop would probably win in court. The work was done, although not skillfully. They are entitled to be paid… Remedy, do not go back and tell others, if asked. The concept is quantum meriut. CAVEAT: I am not a lawyer, but have lot of experience in that area of law.

OTH, the shop might be willing to forego any more money. I suspect they have had enough of you…

The, oh boy, the new shop. Gonna want a pretty penny to fix a “screwed up” job. You will be seen as hard to please as well. Or just tell you they do not want to work on your car… They see it as not profitable, just trouble…

Carl

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