The PPG paint store near me only lists a couple of colors for 1968 Jaguar - the Cream color I’m planning to use on my Series 1.5 is not one of them. A web site search provided a fair amount of information but much of it is inconsistent. What appear to be consistent are the original Glasurit 2335A and DuPont 8313 codes which won’t come up in the paint store computer. The Ditzler/PPG Cream/Old English White color codes from the various web sites are 8157 (two sites), 8233, and 8894. Does anyone know the correct Ditzler/PPG for for Cream color used on 1968 E Types?
You might want to read this thread with some interesting comments on the subject of old paint codes - it also shows a paint code chart by lister Heuer for Cream:
I too, have been looking for Cream paint codes, to do some blow-ins on my E Type! Some say Cream and Old English white are two different colours. I had a pint of base mixed in the Nason brand, OEW, too yellow. (could’ve been that brand) So, again in Nason, which I think is a cheaper line of Dupont, I tried a single stage urethane in Ford Wimbledon White, which was a lot closer but maybe still a little on the yellow side. May be acceptable for a complete job! Soon I’m going to have to start looking a little harder and will keep you posted and would appreciate the same, if you come up with something! The other option is to find a good paint mixing guy, if you have something to match it to! (Almost as rare as finding the correct colour)
My 67 fhc is cream so I’ve been throu this dance over the last few years. It came into my possession with three different “cream” colors in place, none of them original, as various repairs were done and in certain lighting conditions the difference was slightly noticeable. The inner door sections, bonnet inside etc was original but so oxidized it was hard to tell what it looked like. My paint guy said there are a dozen plus “cream” colors out of the 60’s (he had a book with chips from the era) but even if you had the code the tints and bases are no longer available so no possibillity of an exact match, my car being a living example. He also said it’s impossible to match existing paint. IMO if you are doing the entire car there isn’t a person alive who can say that what you’ve used is wrong. JCNA recognizes this problem and only asks the car be “close”. I can give you a formula which I’ve used and think is acceptable, but really what do I mean by that?
I’m following this thread with interest. My car is an especially dark period correct 1967 Jaguar BRG in lacquer from 1986, matched to the original paint number, which was readily available then. I still have the PPG paint can with a few ounces left for touch ups, and it still matches, after 35 years. I wrote down the number, and my favorite paint shop ordered a quart for me. Due to environmental regulations, it has to be mixed “out of town” in a “country shop” in a different state, but I had it in less than a week and it’s a dead match. I guess I’m lucky!
Sure, time matters. So they are the same or different depending on when the cars were painted. The names if the paint are marketing, not technical.
Jaguar did not use different white paints in parallel, the variation in the build sheets is human errors only, meaning it depended on who was on that shift and what did he/she think at the time the “white” was called then.
1948-1952 a white on a MKV was called “Ivory” and the same paint on an XK120 was called “Cream”. Why? We do not know exactly, but the colour charts intended for the dealers and the sales brochures with lists of available colours are marketing material.
So it’s also obvious that “Cream” was not the same from 1948 to 1970 when the factory started to call white as “Old English White” in the paint charts and sales brochures.
It’s pretty sure the tone and formula changed in 1952 when Jaguar changed location, paint supplier, paint type (from cellulose to synthetic urethane enamel) and paint system. That is also why all metallics were dropped until they changed paint types again in 1961 and metallics were reintroduced.
In 1968 they started to use more the
British Leyland standard paints, supllied by various companies, from ca 1974 the paint codes are with the BL prefix.
David Heuer and Anders Clausager have extensively listed the known factory paint codes. The problem is that the base colours, pigments and basically everything has changed, so although the computers can calculate the colormetrics you still need an experienced painter with a good eye and time to shoot enough samples to “eyeball” the tone to match an original sample (a well preserved one of course.)
Ps. But to my knowledge, “Cream” was the same from March 1961 to July 1968. The changes in 1968, 1970, 1972 and 1974 are a bit confusing to follow, but all original samples of “Cream” and “Old English White” I ever have seen are the same “warm white” meaning it’s a white with some yellow and possibly some red / brown in it. But they’re all white if you ask me.
Pekka, I am curious about your use of the term synthetic urethane enamal. We know that in the marketing materials that have been posted here by David Jones and others we see the term “synthetic enamel”. Now you have thrown urethane into the mix. A quick Google search would describe that as a hybrid paint formulation. What is the basis for your using that particular term?
The comment about the base colors and pigments changing over time makes sense. If you haven’t ever done so, get a chance to go into the back of a paint store where they have their mixing bench. Dozens of inverted cans of pigments with precise dispensing valves. I can imagine that a gifted mixing technician couldn’t eyeball just about any color imaginable but I know it can be a trial and error process.
Regarding the original poster’s question, I’ve got nothing specific but I would comment that I used Ford Wimbledon White on my 67 2+2, using Dupont paints (now Axalta). I will provide a link to a photo shoot in bright sunlight with the caveat that what your brain will see, in a photograph, squashed into a jpeg, reproduced on a computer monitor, is anybodies guess!
I can’t answer as to the urethane part but synthetic enamel is what is usually referred to as implement paint (tractors, commercial equipment) which in its day was a durable product for its intended use, also been many a car painted with it. Biggest problem with it was before the advent of hardener additives it took so long to cure. The curing process was from the outside in. Even if the outside was skimmed over to the point it appeared and felt dry enough to pull out in the sun if not sufficiently cured the heat would cause it to wrinkle to the effect it looked like a prune. The hardener additive cured that problem, no pun intended
I’m with you to the syn urethane enamel never came across that term in 40+ years of repairing vehicles
must be a European terminology
Had a DuPont rep state at a paint meeting once that they had ran test on Dulux which was their brand name for syn enamel and 10 years later it was still in a curing stage.Most of us at the time thought he was just blowing smoke.
Yes, may be market specific as to which terms are used, my reference is from a sample (from late 1960’s / early 1970’s) with the paint manufacturers product information referring to that the paint base is a urethane derivative product.
PS. I am no chemist, but a dear late Jaguar friend in Finland was MSc in chemistry and his dad likewise, who had developed a lot of different single and two-stage paints for a Finnish paint company, Teknos. https://www.teknos.com/en-us/industrial-coatings/
From what I know and could easily find, a researcher Roy H. Kienle (1896–1957) for this American company came up already in the 1930’s how to form synthetic fibres that were suitable for paint base:
Funny enough (can you hear me @Rob_Reilly ) he was the inventor behind the trade mark product: Glyptal. During the time he was working for GE, one of the largest industrial companies in the world. Now a spin-off: http://www.glyptal.com/
Strangely enough he has a Wikipedia page in Finnish, but I could not find one in English.
So "alkyd"s polyesters and most likely later also urethane of some sort, in the early stages derived form vegetables and oil and later synthetically:
We then again never use the word “enamel” for paint although I am far too familiar form my early childhood with products like “Humbrol Enamel” and other solvent based paints for plastic scale models.
For us “enamel” is a coating like glazing, created by heating pigments that then melt and form a durable coloured surface, like on medals and metal decoration, car badges etc.
Instead we use words like “acrylic paint”, cellulose paint", “oil paint”, “watercolour” or “urethane paint”.
Did I already say I only had high school chemistry?
This says “urethane” can mean at least three different things:
Anyone who can explain all that in plain English?
I think the real take away message dovetails with David Jones comments about Factory Fit, which is that we can’t really duplicate with modern paint products what Jaguar used during the 60’s, without a great amount of time and money. Pekka, thanks for the discussion!
I wonder if the urethane enamel you referenced is what here in the states was what we called Acrylic enamel.
That timeline sounds bout right. We went from nitrocellulose lacquer to acrylic lacquer the enamel products went from Synthetic enamel to acrylic enamels then the bc/cc systems which were urethane based. Dupont had a BC/CC system based on Centari their acrylic enamel just before introducing the urethane system.
Back in the 70s GM had some paint problems we were told in tech school it was because of which plant the vehicle was built in it could have a water based enamel on it. I’m thinking maybe St Louis was where they were using it because of EPA standards there. Been awhile but I think that’s right.
Maybe @Doug_Dwyer can chime in on that.
No problem, you’re welcome. I agree that nowadays the paint codes don’t help much, the well preserved original samples are really important. Years ago the XK forum folks had color library in the US match all 1950’s early Jaguar paints, but then the whole (paint) industry changed again, due to tne environmental reasons etc and the base paints and pigments are no longer the same, thus you have to redo all that work with the paints and pigments available now.
IMHO “Cream” should be a piece of cake, but some of the old grey metallics may be impossible to recreate now as the old metallic paints may have included lead and cadmium to name a few things not allowed anymore.
Yes, you can say it’s confusing, over here most paints that are called “acrylic” are water based paints, not lacquer or what we call solvent based “thinner” paints (the old school car paints, now almost banned, except for repairs and historic vehicles).
So good to know, but today we just have to try to make the best of the paints that are available now.
I know most on here don’t think much about my suggestion of having the color scanned by whoever they buy their paint from but if there is any part of the car that has enough of the original paint left on it that can be cleaned and polished so as to get a good picture that equipment will spit out a pretty accurate color based on tints being used in todays paint systems. I have used it to repair many Centari paint jobs with BC/CC urethane systems.Some of these paint jobs were 8-10 years old but well cared for
We performed a complete respray of our 1963 Jaguar MK2 saloon in Cream. We sprayed out PPG 8233 and 8894 and compared the resulting samples with the underside of the original spare tire cover from our car. 8894 provided a really good match and that’s what we went with.
We were/are very pleased with the result.
We’re slowly catching up with y’all, problem is there is no consistency in enforcing EPA standards across the 50 states.
A jobber I used for the last 20+ years when I asked if he was going put Dupont’s water based line in his response was not until they make me, that was about 5-6 years ago still not selling it. you can go 30-40 miles to the larger cities and they sell it.
Probably longer then that cause it was still Dupont so before they sold off their paint division.
According to my contemporary British paint manufacturers’ handbooks, Jaguar used four versions of white. The paint codes won’t be much use because they were those of the British paint companies. There was:-
Old English White (Cream), all models, used 1950-1970
Old English White, (1970) all models, used 70-72
Old English White No 2, all models, used 73-75
Regarding the types of aftermarket paints that were in use at the time (by body shops) the main type was called Cellulose Enamel, a quick drying paint easily distinguished by the distinctive smelling lacquer thinner used when spraying it. This was later superseded by a similar paint called Acrylic Lacquer.
At the same time, a cheaper paint was available which was referred to as “Synthetic Enamel” and which was pretty much like regular hardware store enamel paint, like Rustoleum etc. and slow drying. The reducer would be similar Varsol instead of lacquer thinner and this type of paint would only be used for cheap jobs.
I just had a stroll down memory lane and happen to remember going to a dupont paint meeting for new products. One of the new products being introduced was the additive everyone referred to as either a hardener or catalyst depending on who was doing the talking. When the paint rep started talking about it he referred to it as a urethane conversion additive for Centari enamel. Most present during the presentation balked on using it, too expensive cost $30 dollars for a pint 4/1 ratio when using it.
Then they came out with what they called glamour pack, you got two pints of additive to a gallon of paint cost +60 for the package. It made a Centari paint job look like it was inches thick and glossy wet like a sheet of water on top of it.
Those two products were introduced before BC/CC urethane or about the time The Urethanes were being introduced
A pretty good summary, but not entirely true as it is a well documented fact, that at the old Foleshill plant Jaguar used Domolac / Zofelac cellulose based paints at least 1949-1952, but probably also earlier.
So the “Ivory” and “Cream” painted at Foleshill (1949-1952) was a different paint by a different make and different material than the “Cream” used at the Browns Lane plant from 1952 to 1961 (and 1961-1970).
There are well preserved original sample cards of those paints in existance and they had been rematched to modern paints, but then the paints changed again.
Thanks for the great education on paint! My take-away from many of the comments is that the paint chemistry has changed so much that using original formulas from 50 years ago probably won’t get any closer to original than a good practiced eye (if I can find one). The photos of Harvey’s '67 confirmed that Wimbledon White looks good on an E Type. I painted my first restoration (40 years ago) with Centari Wimbledon White and at least one vendor sells it in acrylic urethane pre-mixed - must be a popular choice. I was settled on that until Brian posted the photo of his MK2 with PPG 8894 paint. Stunning is an understatement. I’ll have to loosen up the wallet and buy samples of both. Will let you know what I come up with. Art