[pre-xk] Oil tin in MK4 tool kit

Can someone send me, or direct me to a close photo of the oil tin
that’s in the took kit (inside the boot lid)? And, are they the
same from the early SS through the MK4? I’ve checked our archives
and Google only to find wide shots of all the tools, so I can’t
clearly I.D. mine. Mine has ‘‘Germany’’ on it, and I doubt that’s
correct.

Thanks,
Phil.–
PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
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In reply to a message from PhilW sent Sun 31 Mar 2013:

Phil
No ‘Germany’ is not right.

Cordell Newby has excellent reproductions

They were the same on SS Jaguars.–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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Hi Phil
I am sending you off list photos of the oil can and more tools located in
the tool tray
Regards
Benny-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of PhilW
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:29 PM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [pre-xk] Oil tin in MK4 tool kit.

Can someone send me, or direct me to a close photo of the oil tin that’s in
the took kit (inside the boot lid)? And, are they the same from the early SS
through the MK4? I’ve checked our archives and Google only to find wide
shots of all the tools, so I can’t clearly I.D. mine. Mine has ‘‘Germany’’
on it, and I doubt that’s correct.

Thanks,
Phil.

PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 8180 (20130331) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

Phil
My mail to you was rejected Reason: Server rejected MAIL FROM address.
Regards
Benny-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Benny Grumer
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:43 AM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [pre-xk] Oil tin in MK4 tool kit.

Hi Phil
I am sending you off list photos of the oil can and more tools located in
the tool tray Regards Benny

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of PhilW
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:29 PM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [pre-xk] Oil tin in MK4 tool kit.

Can someone send me, or direct me to a close photo of the oil tin that’s in
the took kit (inside the boot lid)? And, are they the same from the early SS
through the MK4? I’ve checked our archives and Google only to find wide
shots of all the tools, so I can’t clearly I.D. mine. Mine has ‘‘Germany’’
on it, and I doubt that’s correct.

Thanks,
Phil.

PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 8180 (20130331) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 8180 (20130331) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

In reply to a message from Benny Grumer sent Mon 1 Apr 2013:

Hi Benny,

Thanks for the effort. I have a very aggressive anti-spam server to
separate the humans from robots. Evidently, you didn’t know my shoe
size and blood type etc., to get through. As it turns out, I did
get some great photos and mine is exactly the same, except the end
plug is lead (?) instead of brass and it is stamped Germany. So,
for now, it’ll sit in it’s slot with the Germany on the inside.

Thanks, Phil.–
PhilW
Virginville, Pa., United States
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–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from PhilW sent Mon 1 Apr 2013:

Does anyone have a photo of the Thor copper/rawhide hammer
that was in the tool kit for 1938-39 SS Jaguar saloons and
DHCs. I believe that it does not have a patent number on it
as do the post-war (and maybe 1940) cars.–
Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
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Ron,

My research to date says a 1937 made THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer will not
have PAT 501310 debossed into head, but from about February 1938 onwards
SS-Jaguar tool-kits were supplied with a size 2 THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer
that DID have PAT 501310 debossed in large letters/numbers on one side only.

There are distinct but subtle variations in the exact form of the PAT 501310
stamping, and what if anything was stamped on the reverse side of the head -
nothing, THOR or number “2” - that allows further date identification
whether pre-war, during war or post war as was fitted to a Mark IV tool-kit.

The more elaborate but shallow branding with, PATENT 501310 over THOR over
MADE IN ENGLAND (same on both sides) was not introduced until after 1952 so
of no relevance to Mark IV, and of course the readily available today NEW
THOR Hammers replicate (95% accurate) the branding/marking detail/design
introduced in 1962.

Patent 501310 was not actually issued to THOR until Feb 1938, thus all THOR
hammers made prior to this date, could not possibly have had any 501310
branding on them, with examples of their Hammers made without the certain
manufacturing characteristics peculiar to the actual Patent content, but
superficially appearing almost identical cast-steel head and hickory handle,
but with no stampings/markings at all on the head. (a photo would not show
any differences).

Such a 'plain" Copper-Rawhide hammer is what I believe would have been
supplied to late 1937/early 1938 SS-Jaguars only, superseding the previous
supply THOR LEAD Hammer. 1932 to 1936 SS1 and SS2 also received LEAD
hammers, albeit at this stage I cannot say whether THOR made or not - but I
think not, although exact make/brand not yet identified.

I do have good examples of these unbranded 1937 manufacture THOR hammers,
but still have certain reservations about exact handle detail, so I too
would love to see any photos anyone can provide of an unbranded THOR hammer,
bearing in mind THOR made Size A, Size 1, Size 2, Size 3 hammers in
Copper-Rawhide, Copper-Copper and Rawhide-Rawhide variations, as well as
Lead hammers during the late 1930s/40s

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Laurie
Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2013 3:58 AM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [pre-xk] Oil tin in MK4 tool kit.

In reply to a message from PhilW sent Mon 1 Apr 2013:

Does anyone have a photo of the Thor copper/rawhide hammer
that was in the tool kit for 1938-39 SS Jaguar saloons and
DHCs. I believe that it does not have a patent number on it
as do the post-war (and maybe 1940) cars.

Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 3 Apr 2013:

MGs used a lead hammer , at least on MGBs

Could these be the same brand as early SS1?–
Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 3 Apr 2013:

Roger,

Thanks for the great info. One additional detail is that
when SS Cars switched from lead to copper/rawhide hammers
(presumably with the introduction of the MY 38 cars), the
change was only for the 2.5L and 3.5L cars, the 1.5 L
saloons and DHCs continued to have the lead hammer in the
tool kit.–
Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Ron Laurie sent Fri 5 Apr 2013:

I think the change to copper-rawhide was from 1936.

I can’t think of a logical reason

I don’t know that 1 1/2s stayed with lead but they kept the
smaller, different style knock ons. Which in some ways were more
durable, as the hammer didn’t hit a sharp corners.

Certainly post war 1 1/2s had the same hammer as 2 1/2 s and 3
1/2s.

I’m more inclined to believe that relative costs may be involved.

Lead hammers were deemed OK for SS1s with the same knock ons as SS
Jaguars.

But then there was a change from SS2 s to SS jaguar 4 cylinder
cars.–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks for the great info. One additional detail is that
when SS Cars switched from lead to copper/rawhide hammers
(presumably with the introduction of the MY 38 cars), the
change was only for the 2.5L and 3.5L cars, the 1.5 L
saloons and DHCs continued to have the lead hammer in the
tool kit.


Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Ron,

Research to date indicates the LEAD Hammers supplied for SS1 were not of the
same brand/supplier as those initially supplied for SS-Jaguar, so apart from
the now documented idiosyncrasies of sale date/enhancing SS1 originally
built in 1935, there is in simple terms a 1935 - 1936 demarcation re
Hammers. Certainly period pictures show SS1 Lead Hammers to be of a
different appearance to THOR made Lead hammers of the 1930s.

The first 1936MY SS-Jaguar were initially supplied with two size Lead
Hammers (smaller for 1-1/2 litre, larger for 2-1/2 litre) believed to have
been THOR supplied, but maybe still the same as SS1 supplier??? Don’t know
for sure - yet - nor exact date the larger THOR lead hammer was replaced
with a THOR No.2 size Copper-Rawhide hammer for 2-1/2 litre SS-Jaguar.

Communication with today’s THOR company advised that current MD’s father was
delighted to win contract during 1936 to supply SS Cars Ltd with THOR
Hammers continuing on until 1940MY SS-Jaguars, that as per my earlier
posting were initially No.2 size Copper-Rawhide not yet(nor marked) PATENT
501310, but seemingly also their smaller THOR Lead Hammers for 1-1/2 litre
cars - with the Size No.2 Copper-Rawhide hammers for 2-1/2 litre 1936/7 MY
cars then later also 3-1/2 litre cars. More work required on demarcation
dates, but that general thrust is sound and supported by period literature,
part numbers and memories of now elderly son, of THORS founder/owner, but
would be nice to find a copy of the recollected 1936 THOR/SS Cars Ltd
contract apparently not able to be found in THOR’s archives/papers.

AS before, the exact form of the No.2 THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer did evolve
over 1936 to 1952 period affecting detail of what was supplied to 2-1/2 and
3-1/2 litre SS-Jaguar and post-war Mark IV - and I do have good actual
examples of these evolving detail hammers.

But detail of the situation with the smaller hammer supplied to 1-1/2 litre
SS-Jaguar and then post-war 1-1/2 litre Mark IV remains ambiguous with the
THEORY being THOR Lead Hammers up until last 1940MY SS-Jaguars, but with a
No.1 SIZE Copper-Rawhide hammer being introduced for post-war 1-1/2 litre
Mark IV.
The 1-1/2 litre No.1 size THOR Copper-Rawhide Hammer is Jaguar Part Number
C.1068 (as per Spare Parts Catalogue J.1 and J.5 and internal SS Cars Ltd
Contract Drawings), whereas the No.2 size THOR Copper-Rawhide Hammer is part
number C.992 (as per J.2 and J.3 and J.6), noting these Part Numbers, and
this series of part numbers was only developed/introduced in 1943/44
replacing the pre-war part number series/logic.

What worries me about this seemingly sound THEORY is I am aware of an
extremely original local 1-1/2 litre Mark IV that has most (but not all) its
original tools, but includes a THOR Lead Hammer rather than the expected
C.1068 No.1 Copper-Rawhide. Now this may well be a case of a post-war
supply shortage of C.1068s to Jaguar, and an expedient of continuing with
pre-war Lead Hammer, or maybe a case of a post-new car replacement hammer
presuming/supplying the hammer as had been used on 1-1/2 litre SS-Jaguars.
So I am guessing to find an explanation for this anomaly in an otherwise
very original tool-kit.

But the fact that the tool-tray for a 1-1/2 litre Mark IV was the same as
for a 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre Mark IV meant that a replacement THOR No.2 C.992
would also substitute satisfactorily in the cut-out-space available, and
given the consumable nature of these hammers, its rare to find many original
THOR hammers still fitted to 1-1/2 litre cars (or 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre cars
for that matter).

An original No.1 C1068 or an original No.2 C992 is easily identified from a
post-Mark IV spare-parts-replacement by the exact form of marking/branding
on the hammer head, and subjective handle-shape variations.

Fortunately I have been able to assemble good original examples of the
evolution of both No.1 and No.2 THOR Copper-Rawhide hammers covering the
1936 to 1952 period (and later up to 1968 when Jaguar stopped using THOR
Hammers) so when my book on SS, SS-Jaguar and Jaguar tools/tool-kits finally
sees the light of day, there will be detailed photographs along with
hopefully better refined/developed text.

I would however like to get better information/photos/examples of the same
evolution of THOR Lead hammers, if not to yearly accuracy, at least mid
1930s, late 1930s and immediate post-war accuracy, as evidence to date
suggests little change if at all and nothing obvious as is case with their
Copper-Rawhide hammers.

Roger Payne - XK140MC OTS; E-Type 4.2 S.1 OTS; DSV8.
Canberra.-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-pre-xk@jag-lovers.org] On
Behalf Of Ed Nantes
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013 11:39 AM
To: pre-xk@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [pre-xk] THOR HAMMERS

In reply to a message from Ron Laurie sent Fri 5 Apr 2013:

I think the change to copper-rawhide was from 1936.

I can’t think of a logical reason

I don’t know that 1 1/2s stayed with lead but they kept the
smaller, different style knock ons. Which in some ways were more
durable, as the hammer didn’t hit a sharp corners.

Certainly post war 1 1/2s had the same hammer as 2 1/2 s and 3
1/2s.

I’m more inclined to believe that relative costs may be involved.

Lead hammers were deemed OK for SS1s with the same knock ons as SS
Jaguars.

But then there was a change from SS2 s to SS jaguar 4 cylinder
cars.

The original message included these comments:

Thanks for the great info. One additional detail is that
when SS Cars switched from lead to copper/rawhide hammers
(presumably with the introduction of the MY 38 cars), the
change was only for the 2.5L and 3.5L cars, the 1.5 L
saloons and DHCs continued to have the lead hammer in the
tool kit.


Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Fri 5 Apr 2013:

Ed,

Skiliter’s Jaguar Saloon Cars has a fairly clear photo of
the tool kit in a 1938 1.5 L saloon which shows what looks
like a lead hammer. He also has a photo of a 1936 2.5
saloon tool tray that also has a lead hammer.–
The original message included these comments:

I think the change to copper-rawhide was from 1936.
I can’t think of a logical reason
I don’t know that 1 1/2s stayed with lead but they kept the
durable, as the hammer didn’t hit a sharp corners.
Certainly post war 1 1/2s had the same hammer as 2 1/2 s and 3
1/2s.


Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Ron Laurie sent Sat 6 Apr 2013:

Ron

These poor tired old eyes are having trouble being sure about what
they see in the picture. You may well be right. BUut then again I
occassionally see the image of Elvis in slices of toast : >)

I’ll drag out the 1936 [ 1937 MY] tool tray as see what fits in
it .–
The original message included these comments:

Ed,
Skiliter’s Jaguar Saloon Cars has a fairly clear photo of
the tool kit in a 1938 1.5 L saloon which shows what looks
like a lead hammer. He also has a photo of a 1936 2.5
saloon tool tray that also has a lead hammer.


Ed Nantes SS
Melbourne, Australia
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In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 3 Apr 2013:

Roger,

The Thor patent application was FILED in the British Patent
Office on February 16, 1938, but the patent was not GRANTED,
i.e., issued, until February 24, 1939. What I don’t know is
whether the number (510310) was assigned upon filing or upon
grant. (In the US, the patent number is not assigned until
grant).–
The original message included these comments:

Ron,
My research to date says a 1937 made THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer will not
have PAT 501310 debossed into head, but from about February 1938 onwards
SS-Jaguar tool-kits were supplied with a size 2 THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer
that DID have PAT 501310 debossed in large letters/numbers on one side only.


Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Cant be sure without accessing my research notes, but I did clarify with someone with knowledge of British Patents whether filing date or patent granting date gives the actual patent number, albeit in scheme of things patent date is theory, albeit accurate theory, but does not necessarily mean exact same date of SS Cars actually fitting 501310 stamped hammers into tool kits.

Thus I need to say “about”.

RogerSent from my iPad

On 18/05/2013, at 7:59 PM, “Ron Laurie” ronlaurie@mac.com wrote:

In reply to a message from Roger Payne sent Wed 3 Apr 2013:

Roger,

The Thor patent application was FILED in the British Patent
Office on February 16, 1938, but the patent was not GRANTED,
i.e., issued, until February 24, 1939. What I don’t know is
whether the number (510310) was assigned upon filing or upon
grant. (In the US, the patent number is not assigned until
grant).


The original message included these comments:

Ron,
My research to date says a 1937 made THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer will not
have PAT 501310 debossed into head, but from about February 1938 onwards
SS-Jaguar tool-kits were supplied with a size 2 THOR Copper-Rawhide hammer
that DID have PAT 501310 debossed in large letters/numbers on one side only.


Ron Laurie
Palo Alto, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Just to round out a discussion from 9 years ago.
While looking for something else, I happened to find the patent for the 501310 hammer used in later SS and Mark IV.
GB501310A_Original_document.pdf (417.8 KB)




Grace’s Guide reveals that the Thor Hammer Co. was owned by Stephens Belting Co. (V-drive belts), both located at the same address, 94 Snow Hill in Birmingham.
They are now located in the Birmingham suburb of Shirley.
https://www.thorhammer.com/thor-history/
You might well ask, how can somebody patent something as ancient as a hammer? Well, the new patentable feature was the screw-in striking faces of renewable soft materials. The patent listed possible inserts of leather, wood, copper, lead, rubber and vulcanized fibre.
An advert from 1940.

The current building.
image

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Wow, is it really eight years ago that I discussed the THOR Patent 501310… :smiley:
There was then some debate about the practical significance of the three PATENT dates, as to what that actually means with physical hammers…
A good lawyer friend of mine, familiar with British Patents (not necessarily same as other countries), was happy to clarify…

The APPLICATION DATE of Feb 16, 1938 has legal protection implications, but otherwise is invisible re actual hammers…
The COMPLETE SPECIFICATION LEFT date of Nov 11, 1938 is the date of the PROVISIONAL PAT and again legal significance, but as of that date, and not before for copyright reasons, physical Hammers could be made with one or more of the ‘provisionally’ Patented features included, and if so needs to be identified/marked PROV.PAT or PROVISIONAL PATENT or similar…, but not yet any actual Patent No 501310 as it has not yet been allocated/issued…
The COMPLETE SPECIFICATION ACCEPTED date of Feb 24, 1939 is the actual date that the patent no. 501310 was actual issued, and thus known, so any hammer with 501310 marked on it can only have been made on or after 24th Feb 1939, but hammers so marked must incorporate one or more of the Patented features…
Now as far as SS and Jaguar is concerned, THOR Copper & Rawhide Hammers were first introduced in SIZE 2 only for the 1938 Model Year 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre SS Jaguar, with THOR made LEAD MALLETS used previously for 1936 and 1937MY SS Jaguars. 1-1/2 litre SS Jaguar introduced the smaller SIZE 1 Copper & Rawhide Hammer from 1939MY onwards, with earlier SS Jaguar using a LEAD MALLET.

So the SIZE 2 THOR Copper & Rawhide Hammer introduced for 1938MY SS Jaguar (from October 1937) had a superficially similar looking handle to the later hammers, but had none of the patented characteristics included, and were not marked PROV.PAT nor indeed PAT.501310 as were later Hammers - I call these first variant Size 2 THOR Hammers C.992/a - the C.992 being the retrospectively allocated post war Jaguar Part No, with my added /a suffix denoting the first identifiable VARIANT

From 11 Nov 1938 ‘theoretically’ you could possible see a second variant C.992/b hammer, that has PROV.PAT marked on it, and indeed if so would incorporate one or more of the new provisionally patented features, but there is no exact date when THOR may have first made these revised C.992/b Hammers as they could continue supplying old stock C.992/a Hammers to SS Cars…

Similarly, from 24th Feb 1939 ‘theoretically’ you could see the third variant C.992/c Hammers now with PAT.501310 stamped into the head, and although it is most likely THOR would have started making/supplying such Hammers as soon as possible after the 24th Feb ‘start’ date there may well have been some delay, but most likely days rather than months…
So in an ‘authenticity’ context, we have…
C.992/a. UNMARKED. 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre SS Jaguar built October 1937 up to November 1938 and probably carried over a little longer…
C.992/b. Marked PROV.PAT. 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre SS Jaguar built potentially from November 1938, but only briefly up to unlikely any later than Feb 1939, maybe a tiny carry over…
C.992/c. Marked PAT.501310. 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre SS Jaguar built potentially from Feb 1939 onwards, up until at least the last 1940MY cars built pre-war.
From January 1946 - when the first 2-1/2 & 3-1/2 litre Mark IV were built, these Hammers had now evolved into a fourth C.992/d VARIANT, which I detail/picture in my MARK IV Tool Kits booklet, however nothing yet published on 1936MY to 1940MY SS Jaguar Tool Kits - but a work well in progress.

I do have physical examples of all these THOR Hammer variants C.992/a, C.992/b, C.992/c and C.992/d so have been able to examine there pre-Patent 501310 and post-Patent 501310 characteristics, noting hammers only need to have ONE of the Characteristics detailed in the Patent Application, as it was common practice to include much additional ideas/variations that were not actually ever used, or indeed often used …

The relevant case at point…

This inclusion of ‘screw-in’ striking faces as identified in Fig.1 item b was in fact never used for any SS Jaguar or Jaguar C.992 Copper & Rawhide Hammers, which is not to say, it was not used for other applications/marques albeit I still think unlikely. In the much later 1970s/80s and even still today, THOR eventually did offer a model of Hammer with screw-in Hard Plastic threaded faces, but I really cannot see such a concept actually working with COPPER or RAWHIDE inserts…
What you do have with COPPER inserts as used on C.992 Hammers is a smooth cylindrical Copper insert, that is pressed into a socket that had cast in concentric grooves, and not actually a screw-in-thread that many people mistakenly assume…
The PATENT 501310 characteristic that WAS used with C.992/b, C.992/c and C.992/d Hammers was the special ‘oval-like’ cross-section handle and compatible iron head to receive the timber handle as shown in Fig 4 and Fig 5. Note in Fig 5 the indents ‘h’. This is a visible characteristic in C.992/b, C.992/c and C.992/d THOR Hammers that does not exist with the C.992/a Hammers pre Patents…

If anyone wants pictures/more details of SS Jaguar C.992/a, C.992/b and C.992/c THOR Hammers, contact me direct…, otherwise refer to my Mark IV Tool Kits booklet published in 2020 for details/pics of Mark IV C.992/d THOR Hammer… Mark V didnt have any Hammer, and when XK120s finally introduced Wire Wheels in 1951, the THOR Hammer had changed again to a later C.992/f variant. (There is a C.992/e variant hammer post Mark IV, pre XK120, so not used by Jaguar)

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