Hi All,
Engine just installed (XKE S2). Appears that engine was pulled with trans in gear.
How do I put into neutral without clutch in operating order?
Thanks!
Bob
Just rock the car back and forth while pushing the gear lever into neutral??
Thanks Les!!!
Thanks for the advice on how to do this.
Bob
Bob, I wasn’t being smart alec about this, and I re-read your post after replying. It just seemed like you had the engine/box back in and wondered how to get it out of gear. If it’s a E then you had to have the drive shaft hooked up so that’s how I read it.
Your response makes me think I pissed you off sir.
If I misunderstood your post, then I apologize.
In my experience, the gears will disengage, without damage, with a sharp pull on the lever.
Is the gearbox and engine out of the car? Is the linkage still on the box? It is possible to shift gears without using the clutch.
So, a smart bump with the palm has always moved the linkage from 4th into neutral for me.
Getting the Gearbox from In-gear to Neutral should not be an issue unless there is an actual problem with the Gearbox. Its not even the case of disengaging gears (apart from Reverse, all gears are in constant mesh), only the disengagement of the respective Synchromesh Hub. There is sufficient rotational play in the drive line aft of the Gearbox Main Shaft for there to be no side loading on the splines of the Synchromesh Hub to inhibit its disengagement, with slight movement of the car as suggested by Les, or simply lifting the rear wheels off of the ground; one wheel if not a LSD diff (most likely with an S2)…
The only thing that hold the Synchromesh Hubs engaged are small spring loaded ball bearings, rollers and levers. When servicing the Synchromesh Hubs, its not difficult to engage/disengage the mechanism with firm hand/finger pressure. Given the mechanical advantage of the Gear Lever, it should disengage quite easily. Accordingly, if a bump on the Gear Lever, as suggested by Bill Bilotti, doesn’t work, then you have other issues with the Gearbox other than the Clutch being engaged.
Regards,
Bill
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All, thanks for the help on how to disengage and put trans into neutral. Les, thank you also. No issue, I was just very happy that you provided an easy solution. Didnt want to have rework again on what I have already done to this XKE. Thanks, Bob
Hi All,
After working on this all day, it is clear that the trans was put into reverse prior to pulling the engine/trans out of the car.
So it’s in reverse. I have not been able to disengage from reverse with rocking car back and forth, bumping shifter, etc.
What are next steps? Removing the top cover? Once I do this, how do I correct and put into neutral?
Thanks all!
Bob
Hello Bob,
About the only thing that will inhibit moving out of reverse is the Lockout Ball Bearings and Roller at the front of the Top Cover (internal), or perhaps some issue with the Reverse Selector Lever; in either case, the Top Cover will have to come off.
Once the Top Cover is off and unless there is some problem with the function of the Reverse Selector Lever (shown circled in Red in the following picture), the Neutral Position for the Reverse Idler Gear is achieved by moving the top of the Reverse Selector Lever to the Rear. It should move very easily. When working on the Gearbox on the bench with the Top Cover removed, gravity is sufficient to move the Reverse Idler Gear even if the shaft on which it slides is just a few degrees off horizontal.
If the Reverse Idler Gear moves freely via the Reverse Selector Lever, then I would think that your issue is with the Lockout Mechanism in the front of the Top Cover. If the Gearbox was in Reverse, the Reverse Selector Rod should be in the Forward Position; try moving it to the Rear to the Neutral Position. You can test the function of the Lockout Mechanism by moving each of the Selector Rods in turn either forward, or back (1st/2nd and 3rd/4th Selector Rods) and trying to move the other Selector Rods. When any one Selector Rod is either in the Forward, or Back position, the other Selector Rods shouldn’t be able to be moved. The Reverse Selector Rod should only be able to be moved Forward (to select Reverse) and back to the Neutral Position.
An explanation of how to assemble the Balls and Roller of the Lockout System is covered quite well in the Jaguar Workshop Manual.
Regards,
Bill
I suspect you may have simply failed to engage the reverse gear selector lever (Bill’s photo) with its fork in the lid. I did that myself. It locks the shifter so it can’t be moved at all. If so a very easy fix.
Hi All,
I should have posted a picture of the lever positions in the original post. What gear does this look like it is stuck in? Thanks, Bob
Looks like neutral. Time to pop off the lid, make sure everything’s aligned.
Hello Bob,
That’s Reverse; the Reverse Selector is in the Forward Position. Neutral is when the two Red Lines in the following picture are aligned. The Selector Rod at the bottom of the picture is the Reverse Selector Rod.
Has the Top Cover been removed from the Gearbox between the Gearbox operating normally and now with it stuck in Reverse?
If the Reverse Selector Rod can’t be levered Rearward to the Neutral Position without much force, remove the Top Cover and determine that the Reverse Idler Gear can be easily moved via the the Reverse Selector Lever (Circled in Red in my previous Post). When the Top Cover has been lifted about 8mm or so, (assuming the Engine and Gearbox is installed in the car) use a torch and inspection mirror to see if the Reverse Selector Rod is correctly assembled with the Reverse Selector Lever inside the Gearbox, You will find the interface between the two Selector Devices at the Right, Rear Corner of the Gearbox (viewing the Gearbox looking from the rear and above), You will get a good idea of the location from the picture I Posted earlier. This will confirm Nick’s suggestion. However, judging by the forward position of the Reverse Selector Rod and if the Gearbox is actually in Reverse, I would have to say that the connection between the Reverse Selector Rod Fork and the Reverse Lever is correct.
If that is not the issue, then check that each of the Three Selector Rods move easily Forward and Back in the Top Cover. Check that when each of the Selector Rods are moved away from the Neutral Position, the other Two Selector Rods can’t be moved.
All Selector Rods should be in the Neutral Position when assembling the Top Cover with the Gearbox Housing. Take care to ensure that the two selector yokes engage with the annular groove in their respective Synchromesh Hubs and that the Reverse Selector Fork picks up the Pin at the top of the Reverse Selector Lever.
Regards,
Bill
Hi Bill,
Thanks for all of your help on this. The gearbox and engine was just recently installed back in my friends car after being out for 2+ years during a stalled restoration. The car was driven to the bodyshop, all working perfectly in terms of the engine and gearbox. They must have backed the car into their shop, and this is how the engine and trans was pulled. Odd that it now seems stuck? Of course, I do not have the clutch res with fluid installed yet. Just need to rotate the driveshaft and have the gearbox in neutral.
I will pull the top cover off and follow your directions…
Thanks, Bob
Hello Bob,
Given that the Gearbox Top Cover has not been removed, and the position of the Reverse Selector shown in your picture, its highly unlikely that there is any issue with the engagement of the Reverse Selector Fork and the Reverse Selector Lever. As mentioned in earlier Posts, getting the Gearbox to Neutral from any forward gear only equates to disengaging the respective Synchromesh Hub; no gears involved. The case with Reverse is different. The Reverse Idler Gear and First Gear are in constant mesh with the same one gear of the Lay Shaft Cluster. The Reverse Idler Gear is traversed to the rear along a small shaft to engage Reverse Gear, or forward, to be freewheeling with the Lay Shaft Cluster when either a Forward Gear, or Neutral is selected.
There is a chance that the engaged teeth of the Reverse Idler, Reverse Gear and the Lay Shaft Cluster are under some load, making it difficult to move the Reverse Idler Gear to the forward, Neutral Position. You could try removing the engine spark plugs (to negate compression), Raise the rear wheels off the ground and turn slowly by hand whilst someone else tries to bump the gear lever into neutral. Because the Gears are Helical Gears, when the Reverse Idler Gear is moved axially along its shaft, something must rotate slightly for this to occur; either the crankshaft of the engine (when the engine is stopped and clutch engaged), or the rear wheels. Accordingly, just raising the rear wheels off the ground my be enough to allow Neutral to be selected.
There is a spring loaded indent device installed in the small tower above the Reverse Selector Rod to engage in an annular groove of the Reverse Selector Rod, when the Selector Rod is in the Reverse Gear Selected position. There is a chance that this has jammed due to crud around the spring etc drying out during the period the car has not been used. In this and all cases involving mechanisms contained in the Top Cover, the Top Cover will have to come off to remedy. I would try the rear wheels off the ground first and if that doesn’t work, go straight to removing the Top Cover.
The following Pictures are of the shaft the Reverse Idler Gear runs on and of two Reverse Idler Gears. The Gear on the Left with the annular groove, superseded the one on the Right that was used with S2 and earlier cars. The gears are the same in every way except for the annular groove. I can only suspect that the sides of the groove act like oil slingers and aid lube for First and Reverse gears. Its another machining operation during manufacture of the Reverse Idler Gear; I can’t imagine the manufacturers would add that op just for the heck of it.
Regards,
Bill
I’d say impossible. I was under the impression that the lid had been removed during a standard rebuild of the box. It is however possible the lid was removed by the body shop for some odd reason - perhaps in their mind to facilitate the removal operation, though that seems a stretch of the imagination.
Is there no way to physically push the TOB fork forward manually in order to disengage the clutch?
And removing the lid is really no big deal. Ten bolts.Takes minutes. Once you’ve got access to the gearset manipulation is straightforward. The reverse selector (red arrow) should move forward and back with little effort…
I can sure see how the helical cut gears could make it all but impossible to pull it out of gear depending on the direction of the force. This is the only transmission I’ve seen with helical on the reverse gear, the remainder have been straight cut. Agree though, pry bar on the clutch arm to release it (or get the hydraulics working), then rock it out. One thing that occurs to me is that if the drive shaft can be rocked then the drive line is not bound up, and the lid should just be pulled.
Hello David,
Are you referring to Jaguar 4 speed all synchro gearboxes? All of these gearboxes have helical Reverse Gears. By some means the direction of rotation of the Main Shaft has to be reversed when Reverse Gear is selected. This is typically accomplished by using an Idler Gear in the train between the Lay Shaft Cluster and Reverse; all forward gears on the Main Shaft are in direct, constant mesh with the Lay Shaft Cluster. In the case of the Jaguar box, 1st gear and the Reverse Idler are driven by the same gear on the Cluster; accordingly, as 1st gear is a helical gear, so must the Reverse Idler and the Reverse Gear.
Nick Wrote:
Hello Nick,
I think the helical gear form will inhibit the Reverse Idler moving axially with the engine stopped, the clutch engaged and the rear wheels on the ground.
Regards,
Bill
No, I had assumed all Jag all-syncro gearboxes were similar. What I was referring to were other gearboxes I’ve worked on (Opel, Fiat, VW, Honda, etc) that had a separate straight cut reverse gear on the counter shaft, again with the straight cut idler. Mind you I’m not a professional, so I’ve not seen a lot of different boxes, but I’ve rebuilt these as a hobbyist. I’m just suggesting that with the helical cut gears I can see where a binding force could occur such that trying to bang it out would only increase the binding force (and you might break something trying), whereas with a straight cut gear you can pretty much always bang them out.