Re[2]: Jaguar vs. Lexus

well, mebbe so roger, but how many guys got lucky because they were driving
their dates in a lexus ?

dennis

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________Subject: re: Jaguar vs. Lexus
Author: Roger Peng rpeng@flash.net at internet-sd
Date: 10/15/97 11:00 PM

David,

I have new Michelin MXV4 tires on my XJ40, and the car has just 34K miles on
it. It’s about as good as it gets. I used to think my Jag was pretty quiet,
until I drove the Lexus. The ES300 you rode in was probably an earlier
model. They made significant improvements in 97. I had also ridden in an
older LS400 before, and wasn’t all that impressed by it. The ES300 I drove
was purchased just last month, and I drove it extensively over the L.A.
freeways.

When the Jag reaches 70 MPH, you can hear the wind noise. It is that way even
on the new XJ8. There’s none in the Lexus. If you look at the door jamb of
the Lexus, you’ll see that it’s loaded with rubber. No wonder there’s no
wind noise. When you start up the engine of the Lexus, it is totally silent.
You can’t tell if the engine is running without looking at the gauge. At
idle, there’s no vibration whatsoever. With the Jaguar, you can still hear
some mechanical sound, and you can feel the engine a bit at idle when the
car is not fully warmed up. The A/C system in the Lexus is also quieter, and
the sound system is better. When everything little thing is added up, the
Lexus out scores the Jag by a bundle. The only thing I didn’t like was the
remote control door lock, which needed to be held down for a second or more
to work. Oh well, my Jag doesn’t even have such a feature…

                                            Roger Peng

I’m surprised at your experience. I rode in a friend’s ES300 (and had
previously ridden in an LS400) and thought my XJ40 compared very favorably
in terms of quietness, smoothness and comfort. Tires can make a major
difference in noise and harshness. My '86 Audi had a noisy ride, and after
casual discussions with some people from Goodyear I traced the noise and
vibration to the Eagle GT+4 tires, which perform very well but are known

for their noise and roughness. Lexus uses Eagle GA tires which are
specifically designed for a smooth quiet ride. What kind of tires do you
have on your XJ40? I just installed a new set of Pirelli 4000Es which are
original equipment on Jaguar sedans and I think deliver a very quiet ride.
You also should not have much engine noise on an XJ40.

-David
1994 XJ40 4.0L
1993 Pontiac Trans Sport
1963 Lincoln Continental 4-dr. Convertible

At 12:46 AM 10/15/97 -0700, you wrote:

I was in L.A. recently, and I had a chance to drive a brand new Lexus
ES300

extensively. At the risk of sounding like a heretic, I must say I am now a
believer. I have never experienced anything as refined. It is almost as if
the car is electric powered. You simply cannot hear the engine. There is
no

wind noise whatsoever, and hardly any road noise. You practically feel
like

you’re traveling in vacuum. In all fairness, this car deserves all the
accolades it has received. As a vehicle it is magnitudes superior to any
Jaguar sedan. When I came home to drive my XJ40, my car suddenly feels
quite

primitive by comparison. Having said this, the Lexus does not have the
style

that Jaguar has. The Jaguar is a more interesting car. It all depends on
what you’re looking for in an automobile. I look forward to driving my
Jaguar every morning; I enjoy washing it on the weekends; I like the
ambiance of its interior–at times I would sit in it when it’s parked in
the

garage. I doubt I would feel the same way about a Lexus despite all of its
superiority.

                                        Roger Peng 

I think the point about comparing cars of the same age is very
important, BUT is not, of course, the point:

I have a Jag because I want a Jag. It looks like a Jag. People can
see its a Jag at first glance. It makes me happy when I drive it. Its
really nice to drive - I don’t want to be cocooned, I want a responsive
vehicle which feeds information back through the wheel etc as I am
driving, and which does this in a comfortable and refined way. I
don’t give a toss about whether the air-con is slightly noisy and
things like that (I DO care if they work however!).

Last summer, having spent most of a day washing, polishing, glossing
(Auto-Glym routine) etc the Daimler, I drove a friend to a canal-side
pub, where I parked it near a (then) brand new Lexus. Whilst we sat
outside with our pints of ale no less than three seperate groups of
people came out of the pub and admired the Daimler(which cost me
�8000), completely ignoring the Lexus for which the owner must have
paid (within months) well over �50,000.

That’s part of the point - Jags make you happy when you drive them -
happy when you sit and look at them, and people RECOGNISE them.

I get asked by friends to take brides to weddings (as a favour - not a
job) - I have never seen a Lexus used as a wedding car.

Lexus are splendid examples of near-perfect means of conveyance -
they’re not CARS.

Mark Stiles
90 Daimler 4.0
Staffordshire UK

The real test between Jaguar and Lexus will be between the new Lexus
GS400 sedan and the as yet unreleased X200 Jaguar(Lincoln chassis, Ford
engineering, English leather). According to the automotive press, the
GS400 has all the Lexus virtues but with handling, performance, and
aplomb which is definitely Jaguar territory. Since Ford still needs to
recoup their huge investment, it may decide Jag’s future._______________________________________________________
David C. Engelbach E-mail - @David_C_Engelbach
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011


It will be interesting to see how the Jag X200 and Lincoln LS8 compare.
Ford has recently announced that the LS6/LS8 will be manufactured at the
traditional Lincoln plant at Wixom, MI, where all Lincolns since the 1958
model have been built. I assume that all X200s will be manufactured at
Brown’s Lane. BTW, I read recently that the leading candidate for
manufacturing the smaller X400 (BMW 3-series competitor) is an existing
Ford plant in the UK.

-David

At 11:57 AM 10/16/97 -0700, you wrote:>The real test between Jaguar and Lexus will be between the new Lexus

GS400 sedan and the as yet unreleased X200 Jaguar(Lincoln chassis, Ford
engineering, English leather). According to the automotive press, the
GS400 has all the Lexus virtues but with handling, performance, and
aplomb which is definitely Jaguar territory. Since Ford still needs to
recoup their huge investment, it may decide Jag’s future.


David C. Engelbach E-mail - widi@artnet.net
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011


I have to agree with Mark. People DO recognize a Jag, and it always gets
special attention – even a relatively plain model, like my 87 Sovereign
XJ40. By contrast, a Lexus is probably a better car in most respects, but
they are basically featureless and easily mistaken for Camry’s and many
other similar makes. I will make one exception to berating Lexus styling –
I think the SC400 coupe from a few years ago was (is) a very attractive car
– but their four-door models are just plain dull.

In a similar vein, my wife has an 95 Honda Accord V6, top of the line, all
the bells and whistles. She bought it in 1995, the same year I bought my
(then ) eight year old Jag. It cost nearly THREE times what I paid for my
Jag, and is faster, quieter, smoother and more reliable – BUT, guess which
car gets the most attention from John and Jane Q. Public?

Mike Everatt
1987 XJ40, hibernating for the winter----------
From: Mark Stiles m.j.stiles@staffs.ac.uk
To: Dennis Hurvitz dennis_hurvitz@wireless.adc.com
Cc: modern@jag-lovers.org; david_berman@baynetworks.com; rpeng@flash.net
Subject: Reply: Re[2]: Jaguar vs. Lexus
Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 11:14 AM

I think the point about comparing cars of the same age is very
important, BUT is not, of course, the point:

I have a Jag because I want a Jag. It looks like a Jag. People can
see its a Jag at first glance. It makes me happy when I drive it. Its
really nice to drive - I don’t want to be cocooned, I want a responsive
vehicle which feeds information back through the wheel etc as I am
driving, and which does this in a comfortable and refined way. I
don’t give a toss about whether the air-con is slightly noisy and
things like that (I DO care if they work however!).

Last summer, having spent most of a day washing, polishing, glossing
(Auto-Glym routine) etc the Daimler, I drove a friend to a canal-side
pub, where I parked it near a (then) brand new Lexus. Whilst we sat
outside with our pints of ale no less than three seperate groups of
people came out of the pub and admired the Daimler(which cost me
�8000), completely ignoring the Lexus for which the owner must have
paid (within months) well over �50,000.

That’s part of the point - Jags make you happy when you drive them -
happy when you sit and look at them, and people RECOGNISE them.

I get asked by friends to take brides to weddings (as a favour - not a
job) - I have never seen a Lexus used as a wedding car.

Lexus are splendid examples of near-perfect means of conveyance -
they’re not CARS.

Mark Stiles
90 Daimler 4.0
Staffordshire UK


Jaguar is planning to build the X200 (which might be called an XJ6??) at Castle
Bromwich. This is currently where the body plant is located. I’m not sure if
they’re are taking over unused space in the existing plant, or building a new
one.

Jaguar now finances all new models from their own cash flow. When they look at
where/if to build the X400 its really going to be based on where they can
afford to build it. Luxury buyers don’t seem to care where the cars are built.
(Mercedes M Van (oops M Wagon) in Alabama, BMW Z3 in South Carolina).

Finally the X200 is NOT Ford engineered with some Jaguar leather stuck on top.
Jaguar engineers worked very closely on the design, and the new Lincoln will be
the better for their work. The V8 in the X200 is the same Jaguar V8 in the XK8
and XJ8, and is entirely Jaguar engineered. Sorry about being a little heated
about this, but I’ve met some of the people that designed the V8, and they get
a little upset if it’s referred to as a ‘Ford’ V8.On Thursday, October 16, 1997 3:19 PM, David Berman [SMTP:David_Berman@baynetworks.com] wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the Jag X200 and Lincoln LS8 compare.
Ford has recently announced that the LS6/LS8 will be manufactured at the
traditional Lincoln plant at Wixom, MI, where all Lincolns since the 1958
model have been built. I assume that all X200s will be manufactured at
Brown’s Lane. BTW, I read recently that the leading candidate for
manufacturing the smaller X400 (BMW 3-series competitor) is an existing
Ford plant in the UK.

-David

At 11:57 AM 10/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

The real test between Jaguar and Lexus will be between the new Lexus
GS400 sedan and the as yet unreleased X200 Jaguar(Lincoln chassis, Ford
engineering, English leather). According to the automotive press, the
GS400 has all the Lexus virtues but with handling, performance, and
aplomb which is definitely Jaguar territory. Since Ford still needs to
recoup their huge investment, it may decide Jag’s future.


David C. Engelbach E-mail - widi@artnet.net
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011


I think it’s fairly easy to understand where the confusion comes from. 1)
People remain suspicious about Ford’s intentions regarding Jaguar, 2) Ford
has recently (1993) introduced a very highly regarded DOHC 32-valve 4.6L
aluminum V-8 in the US, used initially in the Lincoln Mark VIII, then the
Lincoln Continental, now also in the Mustang, 3) the AJ-V8, although we
know that it was designed by Jaguar, is reportedly manufactured in a Ford
engine plant in the UK. Jaguar advertising in the US emphasizes the native
Jaguar design of the AJ-V8 but the confusion persists. I agree that
Jaguar’s involvement will make the LS6/LS8 one of the best Lincolns ever
made. I hope they have sorted out the styling. Early renderings of
neither the Jaguar nor Lincoln manifestations looked promising to me.

-David

At 03:50 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Bruce Segal wrote:

Jaguar is planning to build the X200 (which might be called an XJ6??) at
Castle
Bromwich. This is currently where the body plant is located. I’m not sure if
they’re are taking over unused space in the existing plant, or building a
new
one.

Jaguar now finances all new models from their own cash flow. When they
look at
where/if to build the X400 its really going to be based on where they can
afford to build it. Luxury buyers don’t seem to care where the cars are
built.
(Mercedes M Van (oops M Wagon) in Alabama, BMW Z3 in South Carolina).

Finally the X200 is NOT Ford engineered with some Jaguar leather stuck on
top.
Jaguar engineers worked very closely on the design, and the new Lincoln
will be
the better for their work. The V8 in the X200 is the same Jaguar V8 in the
XK8
and XJ8, and is entirely Jaguar engineered. Sorry about being a little
heated
about this, but I’ve met some of the people that designed the V8, and they
get>a little upset if it’s referred to as a ‘Ford’ V8.

On Thursday, October 16, 1997 3:19 PM, David Berman [SMTP:@David_Berman] wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the Jag X200 and Lincoln LS8 compare.
Ford has recently announced that the LS6/LS8 will be manufactured at the
traditional Lincoln plant at Wixom, MI, where all Lincolns since the 1958
model have been built. I assume that all X200s will be manufactured at
Brown’s Lane. BTW, I read recently that the leading candidate for
manufacturing the smaller X400 (BMW 3-series competitor) is an existing
Ford plant in the UK.

-David

At 11:57 AM 10/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

The real test between Jaguar and Lexus will be between the new Lexus
GS400 sedan and the as yet unreleased X200 Jaguar(Lincoln chassis, Ford
engineering, English leather). According to the automotive press, the
GS400 has all the Lexus virtues but with handling, performance, and
aplomb which is definitely Jaguar territory. Since Ford still needs to
recoup their huge investment, it may decide Jag’s future.


David C. Engelbach E-mail - widi@artnet.net
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011


People I know who have seen the car can only say it looks ‘different’ , kind of
retro. As has been written many times in the press Jaguar used the MK 2 as
inspiration for the new model. I guess we’ll know when we see it. I’m hoping
that Jaguar can make enough on the X200 and X400 that they can separate
themselves a little more from the Ford influence.On Thursday, October 16, 1997 6:29 PM, David Berman [SMTP:David_Berman@baynetworks.com] wrote:

I think it’s fairly easy to understand where the confusion comes from. 1)
People remain suspicious about Ford’s intentions regarding Jaguar, 2) Ford
has recently (1993) introduced a very highly regarded DOHC 32-valve 4.6L
aluminum V-8 in the US, used initially in the Lincoln Mark VIII, then the
Lincoln Continental, now also in the Mustang, 3) the AJ-V8, although we
know that it was designed by Jaguar, is reportedly manufactured in a Ford
engine plant in the UK. Jaguar advertising in the US emphasizes the native
Jaguar design of the AJ-V8 but the confusion persists. I agree that
Jaguar’s involvement will make the LS6/LS8 one of the best Lincolns ever
made. I hope they have sorted out the styling. Early renderings of
neither the Jaguar nor Lincoln manifestations looked promising to me.

-David

It is most improbable that Ford will “distance” themselves from Jaguar
regardless of the success of the X200 or X400 series. In fact, Ford
looks at Jaguar and Mazda – it’s two principal independent foreign owned
or controlled companies – as part of its corporate vision of producing
“world cars”. I would expect to see Jaguar derived components appearing
on other Ford products globally as well as Ford components on Jags.
After all, the name of the game is money._______________________________________________________
David C. Engelbach E-mail - @David_C_Engelbach
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011


You’re right. What I hope will happen will probably not occur. I’m not sure if
people on the list had heard but Ford was trying to buy most or all of their
dealers in the Indianapolis and Salt Lake City areas. They would then establish
superstores and satellite service centers in those areas. The new company would
include the ex-dealers in some sort of partnership. In the Salt Lake City area
at least they had planned to sell Mazda and Jaguar in some of these stores.
Currently the dealers and Ford don’t seem to be able to come to terms as far as
price, so I don’t think the plan will progress in those cities.On Friday, October 17, 1997 1:23 PM, David C. Engelbach [SMTP:widi@artnet.net] wrote:

It is most improbable that Ford will “distance” themselves from Jaguar
regardless of the success of the X200 or X400 series. In fact, Ford
looks at Jaguar and Mazda – it’s two principal independent foreign owned
or controlled companies – as part of its corporate vision of producing
“world cars”. I would expect to see Jaguar derived components appearing
on other Ford products globally as well as Ford components on Jags.
After all, the name of the game is money.


David C. Engelbach E-mail - widi@artnet.net
Valley Village, CA 91601 Fax - 818.506.1011