Re: The Pub - Some Hard Questions (if Dared to be Answered)

and of course, we can only discuss it here … since, looking at the record, few members even venture/post here … :roll_eyes:

Anyway - (1) when the rules say “no politics”, how is that NOT “censorship” … ? At least here in the U.S., that = telling people what they can’t say to others, at risk of it (or them) being removed at the whim of the “powers that be”? :confused:

(2) exactly WHO owns JLers? I (and probably many other members) are and have been under the impression that it is “self-owned” by its members … if not, then why are we always getting hit on to contribute $$ to “keep the website going” … ? I know it originated in Norway, but shifting it to the U.S. means new ownership took over then ? :confused: Is the owner an individual, a partnership, a corporation, a limited liability co. or ?

That’s all for now … may have more later …


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It used to be much better here when the pub was still around, and it’s a shame it’s no longer what it was. Times have changed blah blah and many members seemed unable to keep out of lists they don’t like.
As to (2) of course you will get your answers. And you donate because servers cost real money and you don’t see any commercials here right?


In the US, concepts of free speech do not apply to private organizations. JL is a Jaguar forum. There are plenty of other places to go to vent your political views.


New idea. Kill the lounge too. And the motorcycle list because why let them have all the fun? (Keep the motorcycle list)
Censorship is okay here in my opinion. If it was your site you would put some rules up too?


David, I had to read that a couple times. Maybe it needs some of these? :wink:

Thanks for bringing this up, it reminded me that my meager donation to the site had lapsed when I had to change my Visa card.

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Given you screen name I’m going to assume you are an attorney. Are there not specific rules governing conduct in a courtroom? In the trials I’ve seen certain behavior is permitted, and there are rules governing what the attorneys on each side can and cannot say. Isn’t that censorship? Why can’t an attorney on one side of the other bring into evidence or say anything they damn well please. Do I detect the censorious hand of big brother guiding the proceedings? I could go on with this but I suspect you get my point.

I can only speak for myself, but I get solicitations for many, many charities, churches and political parties. And oddly enough, I hold no ownership position in any of those entities. Maybe they send those solicitations because they believe I believe they are running an organization that provides value to me and I’d therefore like to perpetuate that organization’s existence.



There was a huge discussion where lots of people put forward their ideas about how the site should be set up after the pub became a pretty toxic place to be. In the end, after the owners considered the input of all users, it was decided to set it up this way. Since this has been done the workload for volunteer moderators such as myself has decreased enormously, which speaks volumes about the success of the move.

I agree with others that we need to have rules, I also agree that it is not not censorship, do not confuse the two. Any society, group, etc. without rules of some kind are in for a very short life span. Jag Lovers is a place where we can all come and comment freely, discuss our cars and whatever takes our fancy without judgement, as long as we respect the rules and others.

Jag Lovers is owned by a company registered in the UK. It was started as an email list out of a server in Western Australia and a few years after was transferred to a web site which has developed into what you see today. Nick and Gunnar are the admins and for no remuneration keep this forum going, likewise the small group of moderators get no remuneration, check all posts regularly and answer any queries directed to them. Lots of info on About – Jag-lovers

There is nothing nefarious about how the site is run and the fact that it relies on volunteers and donations to keep running and has no advertising revenue attests to that fact.



Well, a related question that I omitted – is JLers possibly a non-profit organization/foundation? If so, then is the administrative staff all volunteers, or do they actually draw a salary? :confused: (and how do the admins get positions as such - I never see any “now hiring” on the site or application forms for same ?) :thinking:

Well, bottom line, I think “private organizations” are afraid of liability, particularly in the current times, if something goes amiss too far … Which, being an atty myself, I can fully understand and appreciate …

Non profit, I offered myself as a moderator when it was proposed to open up the pub again. And as far as I know nobody draws any monies for time spent moderating/answering question such as these.


This is not a courtroom, with rules of decorum and admissibility of evidence, John. Those things are based on tradition and devised to maintain orderly proceedings, as well as demonstrate “respect for the court”. By contrast, online forums are merely public discussion groups.

??? First I heard of that … Where then does the “Norwegian connection” come into the picture? I had the impression the site started there (or at least it was operating out of there when I joined in the late '90s or there abouts) … In fact, Bergen, IIRC. :thinking:

Come to think of it, is there a Wikipedia article re: JLers? That might help answer a lot of questions from members as to its structure, ownership, running, etc. Anyone wanna volunteer to start the article? :confused:

A person needn’t go elsewhere to discuss politics. J-L provides a place, The Pub, for that purpose. (IMO, the political discussions there are usually quite good and much more civil than commonly found elsewhere.)

In any case, one can hardly cry ‘censorship’ while simultaneously being provided a venue specifically for the purpose of discussing what’s claimed to be censored :slight_smile: .



Orderliness and respect are allowable even outside the courtroom and, no matter the location, can’t occur without rules and someone to enforce them.



ATTY Dallas…please buzz off leave us alone to enjoy this hobby in our own misguided ways



I’ m rarely misguided, as it pertains to the car hobby!

At least, that’s what I tell myself…:grimacing:

Ok, Tucker, no idea what got your boxers all bunched up, but if you’re really curious:

  1. The idea of “free speech” doesn’t apply here, hence asking loaded questions about “censorship” is not remotely valid. Jag-lovers is not based in the US and is not a public service forum. It is a private company offering a membership-based forum and our rules are what we run by. Membership is open and free of charge, donations towards the operating costs are appreciated and encouraged, but even those tight of fist or low on funds are welcome to spend time here.

  2. Jag-lovers is owned by Jag-lovers Ltd, a UK-based company owned by Gunnar and Nick. This has been the case ever since the risk of litigation-happy members became something to worry about. This is not in any way mysterious or secret and you can read the full history of Jag-lovers right here. I am a little curious as to your understanding of it being “self-owned” by members, which would also erroneously imply that you yourself have contributed to the cost of keeping it all running. As it is, we have a backbone company making sure our bills are paid and the site kept up, with a select group of volunteer admins helping out on a day to day basis.


Hi Nick,

Super nice the full history of Jag Lovers.

I go off-topic and back into it. In 1991 my father bought his first Jaguar, a 1987MY Sovereign XJ40. We must have joined this list shortly after it was founded. Not sure how veteran this makes me (I was 18, or so) not even sure we joined with my pseudo.

Rules are there to allow social functioning. I am really happy of all the help available (and hopefully provided) here in the list. Moderation is needed so that personal opinion on Jaguar unrelated topics does not harm the main objective of the discussion boards.

My family is now several (roughly 10 or 12) Jaguars further down the line, I own a XK120 and an XJ-SC, my father an XJ6SI and a late-model Sovereign, my brother an E-Type, not counting the ones we sold down the road. This well-functioning list has provided help in so many occasions, to a large extend because of decorum and to-the-point discussions.





hahaha: my first post was from July 1999 on the “Modern” List (back then the AJ6 engine was modern :rofl:)