[Saloon-lovers] Conversion from an XJ40 to a 420

For a while now I have been toying with an idea and thought I would bounce
it to the group for your thoughts.

Nearly all of us have had problems with the design of the parking brake
caliper arrangement on the S-Types and 420 as well as the self-adjusting
units on the Marks.

The 420s and the S-Type have the IRS rear end. Does anyone know if the 1/2
axle from the 420 will fit into the hub from an XJ40? Will the hub from an
XJ40 fit into the same space as the hub on a 420? Will the 1/2 axle for an
XJ40 fit onto a 420??

If any of this is possible then it would be a great upgrade to put out-board
brakes with a FAR better handbrake design onto the 420. I believe this
would add to the stability of the car as well since their would be more
weight on the outside than there is now.

Any thoughts?? More importantly – anyone try it yet??
Just a thought

Cheers
Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

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In reply to a message from Cwestneat sent Sat 6 Nov 2004:

Clark,

Not a clue. Hope this helps.

Speaking of inboard brakes, what was the purpose of using them in
the first place?

Seems to me they’d be a tad harder to work on, and I can’t for the
life of me see a plus in the setup.–
The original message included these comments:

The 420s and the S-Type have the IRS rear end. Does anyone know if the 1/2
axle from the 420 will fit into the hub from an XJ40? Will the hub from an
XJ40 fit into the same space as the hub on a 420? Will the 1/2 axle for an
XJ40 fit onto a 420??
If any of this is possible then it would be a great upgrade to put out-board
brakes with a FAR better handbrake design onto the 420. I believe this
would add to the stability of the car as well since their would be more
weight on the outside than there is now.
Any thoughts?? More importantly – anyone try it yet??


Jacques B / 62 MK II 3.8 Auto
Saint Augustine, Florida, United States
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In reply to a message from Jacques B. sent Sat 6 Nov 2004:

Jacques,

The less the mass that has to follow the uneveness of the road, the
better the wheels stay in contact with the road. Same reason as
light weight alloy wheels … ? Or do I misunderstand the question?

Cheers,–
The original message included these comments:

Speaking of inboard brakes, what was the purpose of using them in
the first place?
Seems to me they’d be a tad harder to work on, and I can’t for the
life of me see a plus in the setup.


Pim van der Schaaf, 1968 Sovereign (420)
Rotterdam, Netherlands
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Jacques,
I haven’t a clue. Someone with more history than I will have to provide
the answer, I know the inboards were standard on the XKE as well.
Saying they are a “tad” more difficult to work on is like your college
roommate saying that your 6’8" blind date you are about to meet is a “tad”
tall. It is all a matter of perspective!! They are OK to work on if you
have a lift – a nightmare if you are on jack-stands.
Cheers
Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

Clark,

Not a clue. Hope this helps.

Speaking of inboard brakes, what was the purpose of using them in
the first place?

Seems to me they’d be a tad harder to work on, and I can’t for the
life of me see a plus in the setup.

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In reply to a message from Pim van der Schaaf sent Sat 6 Nov 2004:

Pim,

Yes, you understood the question, and I’m begining to grasp the
concept of keeping the mass in the middle, but aside from pure
racing applications, was the maintenance disadvantage really worth
it on production cars?–
The original message included these comments:

The less the mass that has to follow the uneveness of the road, the
better the wheels stay in contact with the road. Same reason as
light weight alloy wheels … ? Or do I misunderstand the question?


Jacques B / 62 MK II 3.8 Auto
Saint Augustine, Florida, United States
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Reduction of unsprung weight.----- Original Message -----
From: “Pim van der Schaaf” vanderschaaf@planet.nl
To: saloons@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Saloon-lovers] Conversion from an XJ40 to a 420

In reply to a message from Jacques B. sent Sat 6 Nov 2004:

Jacques,

The less the mass that has to follow the uneveness of the road, the
better the wheels stay in contact with the road. Same reason as
light weight alloy wheels … ? Or do I misunderstand the question?

Cheers,

The original message included these comments:

Speaking of inboard brakes, what was the purpose of using them in
the first place?
Seems to me they’d be a tad harder to work on, and I can’t for the
life of me see a plus in the setup.


Pim van der Schaaf, 1968 Sovereign (420)
Rotterdam, Netherlands
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In reply to a message from Christopher McAviney sent Sun 7 Nov 2004:

That’s the wording I was looking for but couldn’t find. I
don’t know really if it’s about keeping the weight in the
middle rather than keeping the unsprung weight as low as
possible though.

Cheers,–
The original message included these comments:

Reduction of unsprung weight.


Pim van der Schaaf, 1968 Sovereign (420)
Rotterdam, Netherlands
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In reply to a message from Cwestneat sent Sat 6 Nov 2004:

Clark,

The way I figure it, since I’m only 5’11’’ tall, slow dancing with a
6’8’’ girl would theoretically put me right where I want to be.

Please contact me off list to tell me where the lift and the jack
stands come into play :)–
The original message included these comments:

Saying they are a ''tad'' more difficult to work on is like  your college

roommate saying that your 6’8’’ blind date you are about to meet is a ‘‘tad’’
tall. It is all a matter of perspective!! They are OK to work on if you
have a lift – a nightmare if you are on jack-stands.


Jacques B / 62 MK II 3.8 Auto
Saint Augustine, Florida, United States
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HMMM!!
My wife is 4’ 12" and I am 6’ 0" and I can tell you how WE use a jack-stand
and lift – but I don’t know about the other way around!!! S

Clark

Clark,

The way I figure it, since I’m only 5’11’’ tall, slow dancing with a
6’8’’ girl would theoretically put me right where I want to be.

Please contact me off list to tell me where the lift and the jack
stands come into play :slight_smile:

The original message included these comments:

Saying they are a ''tad'' more difficult to work on is like  your

college

roommate saying that your 6’8’’ blind date you are about to meet is a
‘‘tad’’

tall. It is all a matter of perspective!! They are OK to work on if
you

have a lift – a nightmare if you are on jack-stands.

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Hello all,

Not having done the measurements, its hard to know for sure…but remember
late facelift XJS cars had outboard rear brakes (there are a couple of
versions). Now the hubs and driveshafts aren’t going to be free from your
local Jaguar wrecker, as these cars arent common (particularly in
Australia)… but the hubs will fit the rest of the rear end (as it is
more or less unchanged) and worst case scenario, the XJS driveshafts can be
shortned to suit. I suppose with a bit of cash, you could also put ABS in as
well…

Aaron Goldman
Brisbane Australia
1959 3.4
1971 XJ6 4.2
1972 XJ6 4.2

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ABS – Now THERE’S a thought!! ABS works so well on my '88 XJ40 —
NOT!!! There are more people replacing ABS and fluid brake systems on XJ40s
because the system is so poorly designed. Half the time I have a working on
my dash regarding ABS and as far as I can tell – it works just fine.

I’ll take the plain old “simple” braking system on the 420 thanks!!

Cheers
Clark

Hello all,

Not having done the measurements, its hard to know for sure…but remember
late facelift XJS cars had outboard rear brakes (there are a couple of
versions). Now the hubs and driveshafts aren’t going to be free from your
local Jaguar wrecker, as these cars arent common (particularly in
Australia)… but the hubs will fit the rest of the rear end (as it is
more or less unchanged) and worst case scenario, the XJS driveshafts can
be
shortned to suit. I suppose with a bit of cash, you could also put ABS in
as
well…

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greetings clark …

if the '88 XJ40 ABS sytem is similar to the '91. then all u have to do is
pull the fuse to disable it …
the owners manual states that if the ABS system fails, then u still have the
standard hydraulic braking system …

cheers,
junot----- Original Message -----
From: “Cwestneat” cwestneat@alltel.net
To: saloons@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Saloon-lovers] Conversion from an XJ40 to a 420

ABS – Now THERE’S a thought!! ABS works so well on my '88 XJ40 —
NOT!!! There are more people replacing ABS and fluid brake systems on
XJ40s
because the system is so

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Less unsprung weight, the same reason high level racing cars use lightweight
wheels and sometimes carbon fibre brake rotors.

Alan

Speaking of inboard brakes, what was the purpose of using them in
the first place?

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In reply to a message from junot sent Sun 7 Nov 2004:

One tip with ABS: Never ever force the caliper pistons back into
the calipers when changing pads without opening the bleed screw and
expelling the old comtaminated fluid out at the caliper. Reverse
flow of contaminated fluid back through the ABS modulator and up to
the reservoir is a recipe for trouble as the small orifaces and
filters to not take kindly to contamination. Also every car
should get a brake fluid flush once very two or three years. If
treated properly ABS is quite reliable.–
The original message included these comments:

if the '88 XJ40 ABS sytem is similar to the '91. then all u have to do is
pull the fuse to disable it …
the owners manual states that if the ABS system fails, then u still have the
standard hydraulic braking system …


John Quilter 1965 3.8S, 1951 MGTD, 1960 Morris Minor,
Brisbane, California, United States
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greetings john …

agreed … if u’r willing to give up the ability to lock up the wheels when
u wish and don’t mind the brake pedal pushing back at u … then ABS is ok
… BMW has incorporated ABS braking on their motorcycles … i haven’t
ridden any of these newer ones yet, but from the horror stories i am reading
about cycle ABS’s reaction to manhole covers and cobblestone roads, i don’t
think i’m gonna like it much …

junot

If

treated properly ABS is quite reliable.

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From: “John Quilter” jquilter@peoplepc.com

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John,
The problem with the ABS system (at least on the Jags) is not the fluid
being forced back into the modulator. It CAN be that but not usually.

The ABS system makes the Lucas electricals look fail safe and fool

proof. One of the major problems is that the sensors send milliamp
electrical readings back to the computer as the wheel turns. Of course,
Jaguar then places these Steel based sensors into an aluminum hub causing
the sensors to eventually give false readings. When you try to remove the
sensor, you find it has “Welded” itself to the hub. In addition to that,
the ABS reads the pressure in the hydraulic power assist brake system. If
you wait until the pressure builds and the warning light goes out before
moving – the ABS works fine. If you do not wait and start rolling before
the pressure has built, the computer re-checks the system at 5 MPH. If the
pressure is not up, the ABS warning comes on and the ABS shuts off. Then,
as if that wasn’t enough, you have the ABS computer and relay. After about
10 years, you find you have to re-solder all the solder joints because they
have lost contact to the circuit board. This is true for ALL the solder
joints in the car – not just the ABS. The finally, you have the
Accumulator valve and sensors. The fluid rushing back and forth in the
accumulator valve will wear the aluminum body of the valve causing it to
leak – much like the water passages of the XK engine. Eventually you have
to open the valve and sand the seat so the little valve will close. Whilst
doing that, you should also open the sensors and sand the contacts so they
operate as well.
It is the second poorest piece of engineering I seen from Jaguar,
surpassed ONLY by the Self-leveling Shocks that even Jaguar. in a tech
bulletin, recommended you remove from the car!!
Don’t get me wrong, I DO like the XJ40. Once the system is operational
it works fine. The car is safe and secure enough for me to allow my 17 year
old son to drive it to school every day. It just takes a large amount of
vigilance
No, thanks for the suggestion, but I believe I will not stay up late
thinking of ways to add ABS to my saloons!!

Cheers
Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

In reply to a message from junot sent Sun 7 Nov 2004:

One tip with ABS: Never ever force the caliper pistons back into
the calipers when changing pads without opening the bleed screw and
expelling the old comtaminated fluid out at the caliper. Reverse
flow of contaminated fluid back through the ABS modulator and up to
the reservoir is a recipe for trouble as the small orifaces and
filters to not take kindly to contamination. Also every car
should get a brake fluid flush once very two or three years. If
treated properly ABS is quite reliable.

The original message included these comments:

if the '88 XJ40 ABS sytem is similar to the '91. then all u have to do
is

pull the fuse to disable it …
the owners manual states that if the ABS system fails, then u still have
the

standard hydraulic braking system …

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Amen, Clark! Without sounding too aggressive, the XJ40 which I purchased new

  • a first for the 7-odd Jaguars I have owned - was by far the worst car I
    have ever owned, period. The only Jag I ever had to have towed: it broke
    down on the way home from the dealer on day one!
    I could go on an on, but suffice it to say that the car almost
    single-handedly put Jaguar under at the time as more and more horror stories
    came out, such as that the car was never tested to anywhere near the lengths
    that Jaguar claimed. A real shame…

Rick Cusack
'67 420G

John,
Cheers
Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

In reply to a message from junot sent Sun 7 Nov 2004:

One tip with ABS: Never ever force the caliper pistons back into the
calipers when changing pads without opening the bleed screw and
expelling the old comtaminated fluid out at the caliper. Reverse flow
of contaminated fluid back through the ABS modulator and up to the
reservoir is a recipe for trouble as the small orifaces and
filters to not take kindly to contamination. Also every car
should get a brake fluid flush once very two or three years. If
treated properly ABS is quite reliable.

The original message included these comments:

if the '88 XJ40 ABS sytem is similar to the '91. then all u have to
do
is

pull the fuse to disable it …
the owners manual states that if the ABS system fails, then u still
have
the

standard hydraulic braking system …

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[Commercial use of subscribers e-mail addresses prohibited.]-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [Saloon-lovers] Conversion from an XJ40 to a 420

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Yes — But it is a GREAT car for a high school Senior to drive to school.
21 MPG and built like a tank and it is definitely the poor man’s rich car.
One of the kids at his High School drives an older BMW with a license tag
that is “WANNAJAG”
Could it get much better for a 17 year old?? Actually it could but I won’t
let him drive the 420 S

When I first got the XJ40 nearly 4 years ago, I made it a quest to go
through the entire car and make sure it all worked properly. Except for the
occasional, controllable ABS warning, EVERYTHING on the car works as it
should. It is almost as much fun to drive as the 420 and nearly as quick.
Like the 420, I do all my own work on the XJ40 and now that it has a new
Crank Shaft Position sensor and a new water rail hose, I would trust it to
drive it any where. After all, it IS a Jaguar!!

Cheers
Clark
'67 420
'67 S-Type
'88 XJ40

Amen, Clark! Without sounding too aggressive, the XJ40 which I purchased
new

  • a first for the 7-odd Jaguars I have owned - was by far the worst car I
    have ever owned, period. The only Jag I ever had to have towed: it broke
    down on the way home from the dealer on day one!
    I could go on an on, but suffice it to say that the car almost
    single-handedly put Jaguar under at the time as more and more horror
    stories
    came out, such as that the car was never tested to anywhere near the
    lengths
    that Jaguar claimed. A real shame…

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