[Saloon-lovers] Power steering box conversion: Mark IX

In reply to a message from peder sent Sat 3 Sep 2016:

Peder,
You probably mean the 420 steering or late Mk 2 boxes. I cannot
find one! Hens teeth might be easier to lay hands on?
Then there is the issue I am dealing with now: mounting, rag union
fit, pitman arm size and geometry.
Not simple I am afraid.
Alternative is resurfacing and grinding original armature in the
Mark IX box and that will be north of 2000 USD.
ILOB–
The original message included these comments:

What about using the much better Marles Varamatic steering
box that Jaguar started using on the saloons in !965. Came
with PS needless to say. They are bone dry after an
overhaul.


Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sat 3 Sep 2016:

certain Toyota Diesel Hilux have a PS pump/alt that bolts
right in to the Jag setup, one of our club members has one
in his S-type.

1000psi @ 1000rpm for the 3.8 MKX, spec as per manual, same
pump as MK9–
The original message included these comments:

What I want to learn is the pressure generated by the Jaguar
P/S pump so I can determine if the Saginaw box will be
adequately pressurized to operate properly.
Can anyone tell me the pressure generated by the Jag pump?
Hoping for answers.


Tony
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In reply to a message from awg sent Sun 4 Sep 2016:

Thanks for info on the pump pressure. Now if I can figure out eh
P/S box problem I’ll be set.
ILOB–
Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Tue 6 Sep 2016:

fyi.

the Marles variamatic is the same for MKX,420G, 420, S-type.
(well nearly every individual part has the same Jag part nums)

A later Marles can be easily swapped in place of a earlier
Burman in MKX (if you can find one!)

I know several owners, one is very frustrated engineer, who
has rebuilt his Burman several times, will ask him what he knows

It would be a matter of checking the bolt hole spacing, (for
MK9) dont know about knuckle joint or Pitman arm, but better
chance on Jag gear than non-Jag.

If you are able to establish they do fit, it may be cheapest
to buy a wrecked car with the Marles box, then on sell the
remains.

I bought a wrecked 420G for $700, spare steering box was one
reason.

Driven by bog standard Saginaw PS pump, which I believe runs
at ~ 1200psi–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks for info on the pump pressure. Now if I can figure out eh
P/S box problem I’ll be set.


Tony
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In reply to a message from awg sent Tue 6 Sep 2016:

The Mark IX is Burman and I guess the Marles would need
to be found for the comparison. The S-Types had Burman
boxes an early and a later type depending on production
year. These boxes are different than the Mark IX box.
They are distinct from the Mk IX box both in bolt
pattern as well as the geometry of the associated pitman
arm. I know, I have an S-type.
Just a friendly caution Tony please. Listers rely on
these searchable posts to learn and sort out problems so
we must be as accurate as possible. I consulted the
books before returning this post.
As for the Varimatic, I’ll have a go again at finding
one but I am not too confident.
Thanks for the Post.
By the way, Makk IX, not Mark X!–
The original message included these comments:

the Marles variamatic is the same for MKX,420G, 420, S-type.
(well nearly every individual part has the same Jag part nums)
A later Marles can be easily swapped in place of a earlier
Burman in MKX (if you can find one!)


Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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I have a Marles box sitting in a left hand drive 420 parts car. Have no
idea as to condition, but no reason to think it will not be fine after new
seals are installed.
Make me a reasonable offer for the box and whatever other steering parts
you want (including the entire front sub frame). I really don’t want to go
unbolt it and the associated parts for you, would rather you come to Baton
Rouge, Louisiana to do it yourself, then haul off the carcass. Better
yet, buy the entire car and you get a set of wire wheel hubs all around, but
has a Chevy engine.
Bob McAnelly

In a message dated 9/10/2016 10:21:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
ibuxton@medicine.nevada.edu writes:
In reply to a message from awg sent Tue 6 Sep 2016:

The Mark IX is Burman and I guess the Marles would need
to be found for the comparison. The S-Types had Burman
boxes an early and a later type depending on production
year. These boxes are different than the Mark IX box.
They are distinct from the Mk IX box both in bolt
pattern as well as the geometry of the associated pitman
arm. I know, I have an S-type.
Just a friendly caution Tony please. Listers rely on
these searchable posts to learn and sort out problems so
we must be as accurate as possible. I consulted the
books before returning this post.
As for the Varimatic, I’ll have a go again at finding
one but I am not too confident.
Thanks for the Post.
By the way, Makk IX, not Mark X!–
The original message included these comments:

the Marles variamatic is the same for MKX,420G, 420, S-type.
(well nearly every individual part has the same Jag part nums)
A later Marles can be easily swapped in place of a earlier
Burman in MKX (if you can find one!)


Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sat 10 Sep 2016:

thx Iain for the clarification.

You have added further info not known to me

to further clarify for others in future.

another gent and myself created a spreadsheet and compared
all factory part numbers for the Marles box, from all models
I listed

As I mentioned most individual part numbers are identical
EXCEPT, the HOUSINGS, which may account for the bolt pattern
discrepancies. Would need to check output shafts. Seals are
the same, so parts have same diameters

I have no personal experience with Burman, other than
knowing several owners of both MKIX and MKX that could not
cure the leaks, (and that a Marles can replace a Burman in a
3.8 MKX)

I once fitted a Toyota PS box to an International Scout
manual steer, and it required to have Pitman arm
‘‘rebroached’’ (new splines cut)

Pitman arms can also be ‘‘bent’’ and rebroached to suit, but
is expensive in a one-off case (ie lifting uncommon SUVs)

fwiw, your search for an alternative solution is to be commended

I suspect the MK9 is an orphan for easy steering box swap,
or the problem surely would be long ago solved?–
The original message included these comments:

The Mark IX is Burman and I guess the Marles would need
to be found for the comparison. The S-Types had Burman
boxes an early and a later type depending on production
year. These boxes are different than the Mark IX box.
They are distinct from the Mk IX box both in bolt
pattern as well as the geometry of the associated pitman
arm. I know, I have an S-type.
Thanks for the Post.


Tony
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In reply to a message from awg sent Sat 10 Sep 2016:

Tony,
This is helpful. I was wondering if what I think you call
re-broaching could be done to my pitman arm. Who does that
sort of thing? If I could have that done to the arm and
the rag joint, I would probably be in business?
Best,
ILOB–
The original message included these comments:

I once fitted a Toyota PS box to an International Scout
manual steer, and it required to have Pitman arm
‘‘rebroached’’ (new splines cut)
Pitman arms can also be ‘‘bent’’ and rebroached to suit, but
is expensive in a one-off case (ie lifting uncommon SUVs)
fwiw, your search for an alternative solution is to be commended
I suspect the MK9 is an orphan for easy steering box swap,
or the problem surely would be long ago solved?


Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sun 11 Sep 2016:

Iain,

You may be able to find a local shop who would rebroach the pitman
arm.

I would try talking to Borgeson first, they may have off the shelf
parts to help you get everything connected together:

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

re-broaching could be done to my pitman arm. Who does that
sort of thing? If I could have that done to the arm and
the rag joint, I would probably be in business?


1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sun 11 Sep 2016:

Hi Iain,

Andrews suggestion is great for the upper joints.

For the Pitman arm, rebroach means the splines must be
re-cut internally to exact correct fluting via machinist
that KNOWS.

good off-road engineers can do this, if you lift a 4wd high
the Pitman arm issues are one of many that must be addressed.

To fit ‘‘other’’ steering gear I would only use an experienced
pro, usually a licenced automotive engineer.

The Pitman arm has the hole welded, then rebroached, also
their is a process of heating and re-bending but I dont know
much about it, but has to be done via a correct process

steering plates with bracing and tubes that go thru the
chassis that are way stronger than factory can be fitted to
most vehicles.

This often need to be done to many 4wd, that have oversize
tyres and extreme off-road, factory box tears out the rail etc.

If you want an actual example, google ‘‘Jeep Cherokee XJ
steering reinforcement plates’’ and see the various solutions
they use’'–
The original message included these comments:

This is helpful. I was wondering if what I think you call
re-broaching could be done to my pitman arm. Who does that
sort of thing? If I could have that done to the arm and
the rag joint, I would probably be in business?


Tony
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sat 3 Sep 2016:

In reply to IILOB Burman/Saginaw box conversion:

It’s my understanding the Burman box operates somewhere
from 500 to 700 PSI, so will assume the original pump was
designed to match.

After much investigating I had no luck in finding a Chevy
(or any other) steering box that would even come close to
matching the physical requirements needed, or have heard of
any kind of working replacement for the Burman box.

I too had the experience of a leaky Burman box (’‘they ALL
leak’’) and got fed up with cleaning puddles of fluid in my
garage…pity these cats refuse to be house-trained !!

Until I found a remedy, the only temporary solution was a
strategically placed box of JohnnyCat kitty litter.

After endless investigation I came up with a solution that
was passed to me by respected sources… it worked well for
me and no doubtedly might fire up this forum with cries
from the LYNCH MOB!

Replace ATF fluid with Lucas Power Steering Stop Leak.
Overly expensive thick-purple-syrup…100% guaranteed by
Lucas…the Prince of Darkness.

Anyways… worked for me, and worth a try before we start
talking conversion as that is the dark and lonely road
less traveled.

Good luck and Cheers to you, my fellow nuthouse inmate.

JamesBond 007
1960 MK IX lump conversion
1959 MK IX with 40K original miles!
(think we’ll drive the lump today and guarantee arrival)–
jamesbond007
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In reply to a message from jamesbond007 sent Tue 13 Sep 2016:

The Lucas ATF solution sounds a winner

as I mentioned no personal experience with Burman, but if
they leak even without pressure, that would suggest o-ring
seals or gaskets are failing, unless parts are flogged to
the extent of excess movement.

anyway, I DO have experience with factory o-rings that leak
in other applications, and the standard methodology passed
to me by experts, is go to a bearing & seal specialist and
obtain individual Viton o-rings that match the original set
sizes, and that in many cases will effect a cure.

sometimes its just the one seal that is the troublemaker,
maybe a fraction undersize–
The original message included these comments:

I too had the experience of a leaky Burman box (‘‘they ALL
leak’’) and got fed up with cleaning puddles of fluid in my
garage…pity these cats refuse to be house-trained !!
Until I found a remedy, the only temporary solution was a
strategically placed box of JohnnyCat kitty litter.
After endless investigation I came up with a solution that
Replace ATF fluid with Lucas Power Steering Stop Leak.
Overly expensive thick-purple-syrup…100% guaranteed by


Tony
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In reply to a message from jamesbond007 sent Tue 13 Sep 2016:

James,
Not often that I earn responses from movie greats.
I have committed to a path from which, as you suggest,
there is little chance of return.
I have a saginaw box that is an outside the rail LHD unit.
The rag joint union and the pitman arm do have to be
rebroached or replaced somehow. I called everyone I could
think of and NO ONE will do one-off broaching.
I appreciate the comments form the forum about o-rings and
this and that, but the box I have is so worm that no amount
of effort and expense to effect sealing that would survive
the pressure of gravity feed worked. So, at several
hundred pounds of pressure even syrup will fail to help. I
am taking the path less traveled. It may be less lonely
that you think.
I will report progress.
ILOB–
The original message included these comments:

It’s my understanding the Burman box operates somewhere
from 500 to 700 PSI, so will assume the original pump was
designed to match.
I too had the experience of a leaky Burman box (‘‘they ALL
leak’’) and got fed up with cleaning puddles of fluid in my
garage…pity these cats refuse to be house-trained !!
Until I found a remedy, the only temporary solution was a
strategically placed box of JohnnyCat kitty litter.
Replace ATF fluid with Lucas Power Steering Stop Leak.


Iain Buxton, Reno, NV 66 3.8 S-Type 61 Mark IX 2000 S-Type
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In reply to a message from ILOB Reno sent Sat 17 Sep 2016:

Iain,

Shipping might cost a bit, and I’ve no idea what they would charge,
and I’ve never had any work done by any of these 3 guys, but… Try
getting in touch with these guys:

If they can’t do it it either can’t be done, or they know someone
who can.

You’d be best to send some pics and measurements.

Andrew–
The original message included these comments:

The rag joint union and the pitman arm do have to be
rebroached or replaced somehow. I called everyone I could
think of and NO ONE will do one-off broaching.


1968 3.8S
Zurich, Switzerland
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Hello Ian,
This is Rock Browning (finally retired).
I have resealed my Mark IX and it was good. Where is yours leaking at?
Rock Browning

So how did your conversion turn out? I have 61 Mark 9 with Chevy 350 and have blown my steering box seal 3 times. After the 2nd one I sent my steering box and Chevy pump to a vintage jag restoration place so they could calibrate the the two together as requested. Well That was 1500.00 down the drain as it lasted less than a 1000 miles before it blew again. I am at witts end not knowing what to do next. Anybody have any experience or heard of what others are doing.
Thanks

I have installed a Blazer box on my MK IX. Certainly not a straight forward conversion. You need to make a 3/8 plate between the MK IX chassis and the Blazer box. Biggest problem is cutting the Blazer steering link and cutting the MK IX steering link then welding them back together. Because you are doing a huge amount of welding, then the steering link needs to be heat treated to release the stress caused by welding. You sure don’t want it to break. If I can figure out how to upload pictures, I will. Steve in Denver
Oh, the MK IX power steering pump worked with great with the Blazer box.

The seventh icon from the left is the upload button, hit that and it will ask you to upload an image from your device. Enjoy.

Have a look in User Guides and How-Tos, there you will find How do I: Add pictures to a post?

I think Xk’s unlimited / Moss now sells a power rack and pinion conversion for our toys! does an XJ6 have that? I need to get mine and the MK-1 together for comparison!