Spark plug wires/conduit

xks unlimited lists a red spark plug wire conduit for the 3.8. when did it switch to black?
some ignition wires come with boots some without. ??
what is the correct setup for a 64ots number 879xxx?
thanks,
ed

Ed

The red HT conduit was used on all XK engines from about 1955. The conduits were made of red vulcanised fibre though for the E-Type at least they were then over-painted black. These new red conduits were made using an original as a pattern by SNGB and a superb job they did of it - exact in every detail. Those of us involved in getting it made agreed it should be red (as fitted to the XK 150/150 cars) and leave owners the option of painting. The originals turned back to red after a few thousand miles anyway because nothing will stick to the cellulose based fibre so the paint literally fell off. I have left mine red as it looks good.There is evidence that some of the original early conduits were made in black Vulcanised Fibre - the manufacturer used whatever they had to hand it seems.

However you need to know that there were three versions of the HT conduit, each with a unique part number - #C2451, #C23608 and #C24126. The main redesign (third version #C24126) of the conduit was to accommodate the engine lifting eyes which were fitted from about August 1964 on wards necessitating one of the conduit fixings to be moved. So if your car is pre August 1964 without engine lifting eyes the red conduit is correct. The red conduit is of a much higher quality than the reproduction black one available from the usuals. Everything you could ever want to know about the HT conduits is here: http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?p=59452#p59452

Oddly, despite all the R&D undertaken by XK140/150 owners, SNGB and myself together with Jaguar documentation listing the changes the JCNA do not accept these conduits as being original fitment for concours competitions!

The plug caps would have originally been Champion WCX600 ‘bow tie’ from mid 1963.

David

david
thank you for an excellent reply. does sng barratt sell the bow tie plug caps also?
the 64 ots is a usa lhd model 879xxx with a build date of approx may 1963.
btw would it have a 3.07 diff ratio?

Hi David,
Thanks for your input.The latest update to the S1 Judging guide includes changes to the conduit that has been sitting for several months and wont be posted until I see the 2nd version that I know is 100% original. What is a shame is that I took pictures of a original owner 20,000 mile E-Type a few years ago that fell within the numbers of the 2nd version but did not get a picture of the back bracket. The car was since sold and to this point in time I have not been able to contact the new owner. As a point of information this car 881640 engine number RA7016-9 did not have the bow tie plug caps but the 2nd style the ones with Champion written in an oval on the top.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi

David that is because we are waiting for the UK body to change their guides first–oh wait there are none! I think the JCNA author has written and had there been a protest this year it would have been addressed earlier. I appreciate your work and contributed an original NOS part to the effort. Not sure why you had to include your comment in what was otherwise a very accurate description!

Excellent news regarding the S1 judging guide Bob!

As regards the caps it seems the Champion WC548 ‘dot’ caps were fitted up until about October 1961. After that the Champion ‘oval’ caps were fitted up until mid 1964. After that the Champion WCX600 ‘bow tie’ caps were used.

In Summary (dates approximate):
Up until September 1961 - Champion WC548 ‘Dot’ caps
Up until June 1964 - Champion WC548 ‘Oval’ caps
June 1964 onwards - Champion WCX600 ‘Bow-tie’ caps (suppressed)
Export cars #C17456 (no suppressor) was specified so a WC548 dot or oval.
UK cars #C16979 was specified so WCX548 dot or oval with plug in suppressors. All cars were eventually fitted with the WCX suppressed plug caps (bow tie design by then) as witnessed by the Nov 1965 J37 parts catalogue.

All can be found at various suppliers although original ‘dot’ caps seem to sell for about $250 each as they are sought after by early Mini owners. The oval caps are available here: http://tinyurl.com/oo7fcq5 for $9 each (ignore the photo, they are all black not gold!). Norman Motors can supply a set of six ‘dot’ caps for £100. The later Champion WCX600 ‘bow-tie’ are easily available on eBay etc.

Regards

David

[quote=“George_Camp, post:5, topic:351983, full:true”] Not sure why you had to include your comment in what was otherwise a very accurate description!
[/quote]
Just a light hearted comment George although it was factually correct. I have been in correspondence with Bob over the conduit but I understood it was being held in abeyance for the time being. Tadek and myself worked hard with Julian Barratt to get these made to the highest standards with the expectation of strong sales for SNGB to cover their setup costs. Not sure how many have been sold but I don’t think turnover has been stellar so I was anxious to get JCNA’s seal of approval to give the conduits momentum. I have been discussing other items for production with Julian but they won’t happen unless we get behind them.

I think you are right about the UK concours rules - there does not appear to be any as far as I can tell. I have never been involved in a concours so I would not know. These types of events are fairly rare over here and few are serious. Sorry if I hit a nerve but I really do hold the work JCNA, Bob Stevenson and yourself do in very high regard.

Regards

David

if i understand this correctly, the red conduit is correct(due to eye bolt spacing) for a june 64 build lhd ots? however, to be correct it should be painted black?
is there a black conduit available with the correct spacing?
thanks
ed

Ed

No the only conduit with the correct spacing is the red one. The brackets are already black. Painting it is relatively easy as you only need to mask off the rivet heads on one side if you want to. The originals were sprayed over with matt or satin black (the manufacturer over painted the rivet heads) after assembly leaving the inside red. To be concours correct they should be black but the red looks so good when fitted I decided to leave mine that way.

Buy the red one!

Regards

David

David I know you did. The issue is you do not understand how JCNA works. Bob S (that yankee SOB) is the author of the guide. He has signed over reproduction to JCNA as is normal but he and he alone can change it. If JCNA wishes a change and he refuses (he never has with proper evidence) then we can scrap it and write a new one (but we never will). So Brother Bob knows he can change it at any time but I know he has had higher priorities for a while and had he ignored them I would have killed him!. Bob has made great contributions to JCNA and E Types. In the New EType originality guide BOB is omnipresent in the work. JCNA moves but perhaps not quickly enough at times. No problem just wonder why the finger is pointed at times when there is little else out there. It is perceived as discouraging at times.

As indicated, there were a number of us in at least three different countries, and with help from several other people who did a lot of research and input through two different suppliers to produce accurate reproductions of this first version spark plug conduit as fitted to ALL XKS and only early E-types before there was a second then third version for late 3.8 E types and 4.2 E types. At that stage the only reproduction conduits available from both US and UK suppliers was the 4.2 E type third version, with nothing remotely correct available for XK’s unless you made your own from scratch with an original available to copy.
The trouble is the first version for XK’s and early 3.8 E types came in three different variations, plus a few other irrelevant variations. Over the XK and early 3.8E period they were made from RED fibreboard, Red fibreboard painted Black, and BLACK fibreboard. Although many original conduits were confirmed, we were unable to establish any age related pattern regarding these three colour variations, albeit I concluded that my September 1955 XK140 should have a Red one, Tadek 1952 XK120 had its original red painted black one, a local 1951 XK had its original Black one, and a couple 3.8E types seen also had a Black fibreboard version. Be interesting what the new Mueller/Haddock book says about the colours of this early E- type version (and also re second and third versions).
So I am pleased after all this effort that those now made are in RED fibreboard, Tadek is happy enough as it’s easy enough to paint a red one black for his 1952 XK120, but sadly not yet made in BLACK fibreboard which although definately not conclusive, is probably a more accurate choice for early 3.8E types.
We don’t have a detailed written judges originality guide in Australia as does JCNA, but judge based on available sound evidence/research, so now that there are accurate reproductions of this first version conduit are available, any XK or early 3.8 E that presents with the readily available third version reproductions will be deducted accordingly, if judge of the day is sufficiently knowledgeable, but word gets out very quickly, so unlikely to go unnoticed.
Roger

If you have any information on the various versions Roger I would like to hear it to add to what I already know and be able to pass it on to Bob Stephenson. From my research it looks like this:

C2451 - carried over from the XK150S and fitted to all E-Type’s up until April 1964. Page B26 of the Service Manual illustrates it.

C23608 - a direct replacement for #C2451 from April 1964 (SPB A139 refers) engine no. RA5634 and supplied for all in service replacements going forward. My research suggests the only difference was to change the HT lead exit holes from round to oval following complaints of the difficulty in threading new HT leads into the conduit. HT leads at that time were copper cored so quite stiff.The oval holes also had the benefit of allowing the leads to sit closer to the body of the conduit.

C24126 - from August 1964 a revised conduit bracket location and design to allow the fitting of the engine lifting hoops from engine no. RA 7324 (SPB A146 refers). The modification not only included the flat brackets to allow the conduit to sit lower in the cylinder head but involved fitting of two lifting brackets, four revised studs and four revised washers. It was not backward compatible with either C2451 or C23608 unless the other listed items were fitted.

So almost all 3.8 E-Type’s had the red conduit design rather than “early” cars which we tend to regard as the first 500. Detail changes to the conduit apart, for originality and most certainly concours entrants I would expect to see every 3.8 E-Type not displaying the lifting brackets to have the red conduit, painted black for the purists, left red for the more style conscious or those who want their car to have a ‘patina’.

Photo showing the bracket location of an original red conduit:

Oval holes of the intermediate C23608 conduit:

Fitted to my March 1962 FHC (because I think the red looks cool!):

Regards

David

PS I am quite glad we agreed to leave the conduit red as it makes discussing and differentiating it so much easier. So when I use “red conduit” it should be black on the E-Type, at least temporarily!

David,
I will respond in more detail later I am currently in Melbourne for the Formula 1 Grand Prix opening race for the 2017 season, so don’t have immediate access to my files/notes at home in Canberra some 650km away.
Most of the research work by a number of us that communicate on XK forum was done focused on XK originality, and E types were periferal, but in process a number of us accessed many original XK’s and George Camp who was exceptionally helpful provided a NOS red conduit as part of the research project. But by no means the only original conduit that contributed.
I have a lot of respect for Mueller/Haddock effort on matters E type originality, but have not yet seen what is in their new book given I am not home until next Tuesday, but as before my periferal assessment for early E types was a black fibreboard conduit, as my focus was more on XKs which as before was totally inconclusive, with clear evidence of three versions - black, red, and red painted black, but not at all conclusive over any time line/demarcation.
Whatever, the fact we are now getting an accurate reproduction C2451 conduit is a MAJOR advance on previous situation where all the XK and E type suppliers - Usa and UK - were unashamedly offering only C24126 reproductions for everything.

As before, Tadek who was a major contributor, has a 1952 XK120 with an original red painted black conduit. My 1955 XK140 is most probably a red conduit, a local 1951 conduit is 100% definately black fibreboard, so totally inconclusive almost like batch by batch co-existing, but all functionally interchangeable, thus same part number.
My view is although there is a clear difference in the C2451 Conduit relative to the later C24126 conduit, I just do not have the reliable research data to make any conclusions over the colour of the fibreboard, albeit what I do have so far suggests Black fibreboard for early 3.8 E types with C2451 conduits, and not red as I confidently believe is correct for my 1955 XK140.
More than happy to see more developed research on this matter than my own, and as discussed on XK Lovers forum.
I tend to find the E type forum more dominated by those who want to modify cars without having a sound engineering basis for doing so, rather than care about originality which did have sound period engineering basis, whereas the XK forum is not so much into 5 speed gearboxes and similar modification rubbish (my opinion, and not an uneducated engineèring opinion)

I am just pleased we now have reasonably accurate reproduction C2451 conduits avalibke, whereas a few months ago, we didn’t.
Hopefully JCNA will get up to speed, with a few 100 point XK’s now only 99.9 pojnters untill they get C2451 repro conduit rather than their current C24126 repros, albeit I know they have a policy process to go through first.
Main thing is there are lots of owners not interested in Concours, who just want to get things as right as possible for their own satisfaction.
Roger

Hi David & Roger

The attached photo, if it attaches, is also of 881640, as is one of your photos, original owner, 20K mileage, unrestored 64 E, June 1964 production date, engine #RA 7016-9 which should have the 2nd style conduit but has the 3rd style but no lifting lugs. I talked to the original owner this morning and he cannot recall ever having this changed or know why as the car was rarely used. The original owner was an engineer and kept records on everything but the records went with the car, it was sold a few years ago, and until this point in time I have not been able to contact the new owner.This car is very original, except for the resonators, 4.2 style installed by the dealer, header tank and for some reason one phillips head screw in the commission plate. You’ll also notice that it has the oval style spark plug caps, and I was told by Champion that as they do not have an archive they could not date when the various caps were used.
Bob
889076
Plymouth, Mi.

How about the two-part conduit? At some point in history the only conduit I could buy (probably from the Jaguar dealer here) was a black conduit that separated into two halves, and the plug wires could just be laid in. It had an oval cross-section when assembled, and had cable channels at the rear to hold wire number 1 in place. Just terrible, but are you aware of it? It certainly was not original to the car (I don’t remember what the original was like).

Jerry

fyi, roberts post #14 did not download the text in its entirety but did open completely in my email…

There is a little slider under the one line that lets you see the whole text, but WHAAA?

Jerry

Fixed it now,

There is a problem with a line in a post starting with more than 4 spaces, markdown interprets it as preformatted text, so it doesn’t wrap the lines, it displays it as one very wide sentence up to the next CRLF.

(I take it that my editing the post hasn’t abrogated anyone’s right to free speech or offended their sensitivities.)

Thanks Bob.

Your photo does show the later style ‘flat’ brackets designed to press the conduit further down towards the head to allow more clearance under the lifting brackets. This makes me wonder whether I have it wrong and the intermediate conduit C23608 not only introduced the oval holes but also the simpler ‘flat’ bracket in April 1964. Four months later Jaguar installed the lifting brackets so all that was required was re-positioning one of them. Unless more information comes in I think that is what I will include in the UK Forum ‘Factory Fit’ thread. It will also maybe simplify your task with the Judging Guide. So my new summary would read:

"C2451 - carried over from the XK150S and fitted to all E-Type’s up until April 1964. Page B26 of the Service Manual illustrates it.

C23608 - a direct replacement for #C2451 from April 1964 (SPB A139 refers) engine no. RA5634 and supplied for all in service replacements going forward. My research suggests the difference was to change the HT lead exit holes from round to oval following complaints of the difficulty in threading new HT leads into the conduit. HT leads at that time were copper cored so quite stiff.The oval holes also had the benefit of allowing the leads to sit closer to the body of the conduit. The brackets were modified to be flatter so pushing the conduit closer to the cylinder head.

C24126 - from August 1964 a revised conduit bracket location to allow the fitting of the engine lifting hoops from engine no. RA 7324 (SPB A146 refers). The flat brackets allowed the conduit to sit lower in the cylinder head to clear the two lifting brackets, four revised studs and four revised washers. It was not backward compatible with either C2451 or C23608 unless the other listed items were fitted."

As regards colour of the conduit. Jaguar was a conservative company and probably specified various parts be finished in black so as not to stand out. They certainly did so with the Lucas FRV 11/7A battery where /7 denotes special assembly to Jaguar requirements (no white Lucas logo highlight, black caps rather than silver or red) and the C45PVS-6 generator where the S denotes special finish to Jaguar requirements. Whoever manufactured the Vulcanised Fibre conduits for Jaguar were told they had to be black so in the absence of that colour stock, painted the red ones. When black stock became available they used it. Even in the early 1960’s Britain was suffering shortages and the mindset from the war was to make do with what was on hand.

As regards dates of the plug cap styles we know the dot caps were used on Mini’s until mid 1961 when they were replaced with the oval ones. Trust me, the Mini owners are way more into original components and dating than E-Type owners will ever likely to be! We know from Jaguar documentation the oval caps were still being used up until at least March 1964:

The plug cap part numbers are the same for the 3.8 and 4.2 cars so it is anyone’s guess when the 'bow-tie caps were introduced but my bet is mid 1964 when Champion introduced the WCX600 caps with integrated suppression. Previously they offered the plug in suppressors as illustrated above.

David

:wink:

No, we’re good here.
Thanks for all your work!
Cheers, Alan