Starter Motor Question

Oops just realised I said jump start in my first post. That should have read push start. Rolled down my driveway and dropping the clutch.

Tom this is one of those problems where you will just have to step through all the likely issues. you have from what i have determined now confirmed it is not the battery itself. The issue appears to be a lack of current to allow the SM to turn over or engage. You will there for have to confirm all of the high current connections including the main earth. It won’t be sufficient just to visually check them you will have to remove each one and clean and reattach. its a pain but there are not that many on the starter circuit. If you are able to verify that all is ok then it will be down to one of the devices inline with the SM. i.e the solenoid just after the battery or the SM itself. Please double check the earth connections from the battery to the body and the engine to the body ( i make the earth connection from the battery to the engine then the engine to the body). In the end it could be the SM itself but it is the least likely item in my opinion. one other thing you could try is to with on as many loads as you can and check the volt drop (place the meter on the battery positive and then the engine block that will show if you have any resistance in the earth side. As i say just my opinion.
Best regards
Phil D.

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Tom;
I am not familiar with the starter electrical system of the early E Types, do you have a ‘starter relay’ in the system? If you do that might be the cause of symptoms.
Good luck.

Regards, Joel.

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Tom, sorry about your frustrating situation. Unfortunately, your initial description that jump starting worked, indicated an okay starter motor and cables, which now is no longer indicated. In all probability, it now is the SM, but it could still be a bad cable or connection. As Phil said, check all your connections, both visually and, preferably with a volt meter. If you want details on voltage drop information, let us know. The intermittent failure you have is often caused by worn or sticking starter motor brushes. When they do not contact the armature, the pull in circuit of the solenoid is not completed, and the solenoid just clicks. If you hit the starter with a 2 x 4, it jars the brushes, they make contact, and it starts. Or as you drive, the brushes vibrate and sometimes touch, sometimes do not, thus the intermittent starting. Or, as Joel indicates, it could be a faulty solenoid circuit, ie. relay or even starter switch itself. This is also best checked with a voltmeter, checking for 12 volts at the solenoid S post when cranking. BUT, before simply replacing or repairing the SM, determine exactly what the problem is.
Tom

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I went through a “mess” with my different car. Caused by several things.

The other car suffered a SM malady as well. But, that one was “easily” solved and fixed.
.
But I suspect the architecture is similar.
Parts to check:

  1. The ignition switch may be worn and dirty inside.
  2. Relay points in an electro mechanical .unit might be dirty.
  3. The solenoid may have failed internal contacts.
  4. The starter motor my have worn brushes and buses and bearings.
  5. Low voltage available at the battery.
  6. Wires and cables connecting the above.

If one does the easies first. Recomended. Clean and tighten all the connections. Works so often!!!

If not, down and under. For absolute safety, disable the ignition, one way or another. Small wire to solenoid. Jump known good 12v to it. Cranks? Great, go back topside.

No? Jump 12 v to the big post on the solenoid. Cranks ? No, solenoid issue.

Jump 12v to the starter. Spins but not crank? Good, Motor good, solenoid not. I used a small wire and it got hot quick. Caveat.

All down stairs good? Go upstairs . Relay, wires and switch to be verified.

And, yes, clicking indicates the presence of a relay, a good thing.

Diagnostics are imperfect, but miles better than guess and parts tossing!!!

Carl

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I always check the ground side when this happens to me. The battery could be in great shape but the ground could be bad, corrosion at the block connection. That would explain why it jumps fine, assuming the jumper cable ground is to the engine.

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Tom,

It could be the starter, but it could also just be the connections at the battery. It’s hard to narrow it down to one or the other even when you’re standing at the car, let alone by antipodal text messages.

Have you got a battery cutout switch?
Could you post 2 pictures, one of each battery clamp (i.e. zoom in to show a closeup).
Take a DVM with you and the next time the “Click no start” happens measure the battery voltage at the battery posts, at the body of the clamps, and also at the bit of copper wire exposed where they enter the clamps, and report that here.

If you are getting different symptoms by doing nothing other than just replacing the battery then it could be something as simple as a clamp or wire which is not making a good connection: by moving it around during the battery swap you create a temporary clean connection.

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Definitely!!

Decades ago, my neighbor returned from a camping trip. His big Ford F250 4x4 with hefty cab over camper towed in !!! Big bucks, I dared not inquire. He told me that it failed to start at a distant camp ground and that jumps failed.

The big Ford had two 12V batteries. One for the truck and one for the “house in the bed”!!! Fran went all out on the rig.

As I had a bunch of critters here, he asked my counsel. I dug out my battery post cleaning gear. Fran, clean all the cables
All eight terminus. Back to whatever the h… I was up to.

Fran came over. Ecstatic, but displeased. Truck cranks just fine. “Had I known:”.

Lesson II.

Now, here is the stuff to keep those terminals clean. Get some!!

Fran, a smart guy. Entrepreneur in jewelry manufacture.
Too bad, he and spouse now dementia patients…

Carl

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Added:

Jaguar Mantra on electrickery:

Clean, tighten and lube all electrical connections.

Carl

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Further to Andrew’s excellent advice.

Since there is a good chance, given your report, that the problem is at
the battery connections, I would try pulling the cables out of their
swedged connections to the lead terminals.

I have had new cables where the connection was loose, resulting in the
situation you are experiencing.

Cheers, Alan

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Tom,
Since you’ve clarified “jump start” as push start then that resets a lot of thinking here. Try a jump start with battery cables when it won’t start. It will help to define if its a battery connection problem, I think we can assume its not the battery based on what you’ve done, but cables and connections are still (cheapest and easiest) suspect.
pauls

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I had an experience years ago with my work truck that would not start. Battery and all connections were good. Auto club tried to jump start with no success.
Tow truck driver wiggled cable as I attempted start and started right up. Cables can fail at clamp connection, replace cable.

Glenn

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Hello. Thank you for all the replies. I spent a couple hours cleaning and tightening all every connections I can find in the engine bay last night. Car started ok with the battery fresh off the charger. I’ll leave it connected for 24 hours and see if the problem occurs again. If so i think i’ll call in some help who can work out whats going on.

The problem has now spread to my XJ6 after I used its battery in the E-Type.

My gut feel is that the car is doing something to the battery which effects its ability to crank over the Start motor. Is this possible?

Yes, it is possible to have a phantom draw that discharges the battery as the car sits. Can be tested for and, if present, tracked down and eliminated. But a simpler thing you can do is disconnect the battery (removing the ground cable will do) and see if that prevents a charged battery from running down over night or perhaps in a couple of days…

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I agree with George, anything is possible but there are two tests I haven’t read that were tried or results. 1) what happens with the headlights on when trying to start. Headlight dim, its nearly always battery, if they go out nearly always a connection. The other thing is what happens after it won’t start and you connect jumper cables to it. You’ve added a good battery, if it starts then it also implies battery but doesn’t eliminate a cable problem. These are simple tests that will tell you a lot.
pauls

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Hi Tom,

Further to my earlier email, I think you’ll find the problem is the contacts that are actuated by the solenoid which is on top of and integral with the SM as I previously mentioned.The fact that the car will start normally at times is because sometimes the dirty contacts do conduct electricity to the SM in the normal way.This is a well known fault with this system.

I do not see how the fact that a ‘push start’ starts the car actually proves the solenoid and SM are functioning as neither component is involved or actuated in a push start!!

Best of luck,

JEFF

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Contagious???

My LT1 powered XJ has been resting during our drought busting rain storms.

IAs we had a brief interval of sun, I tried firing it up. No fire, mere relay rattles. Oh, h… So, I put my Schumacher smart charger on it. Alll afternoon. It went 888. Some type error. Status. 12v. 60%.
I’ll try a crank later. And, perhaps more charge. If either is a no start. Two paths to take,

  1. parasitic drain.

  2. Replace the battery.

Carl

Carl, aren’t you going to try jumper cables first?
pauls

Tom,

Some great advice given and I know you’re frustrated as these quirks tend to be.
Try this procedure:

  1. Remove your battery and fully charge it.
  2. Re-install the battery and attempt to start the car. If it starts OK take it for a short 30 minute test drive. Make sure you have your cell phone!
  3. Note the charging indication (Battery Condition) during the drive.
  4. Once back home shut the car off. Wait a few minutes then attempt to restart.
  5. If it starts then you can rule out the generator or alternator and/or regulator as the culprit.
  6. If the car fails to start attempt to jump start via battery cables from another vehicle.
  7. If it starts right up then I’d suspect you have a charging problem, not keeping your battery fully charged.
  8. If it fails to start then suspect a starter relay or the solenoid.

If your drive to the coffee shop was a short one your battery may have been drained just enough to cause the re-start problem. There may have been enough juice in the batter to allow a push start and to get you home.

Let us know how the test goes. What year/Series is your car?

Good luck and Good Hunting… Leading to

Happy Motoring,

Dick

'74 OTS
'99 XJR
1947 Stinson 108-1 "Voyager

Growing Old is Mandatory. . . . Growing Up is Optional…

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After sitting for 24 hours with the battery connected the car started strongly first time. I ended up with yet another new battery, unplugging , cleaning all connections, giving the starter motor a good bashing. I also revisited all the work I did a month ago internally; Hand Brake switch, map light, cabin light, Door switches Water sprayer etc. Hopefully it is sorted out. Distinct lack of success from never actually identifying the issue.

Now it is just a matter of parking on hills until I can confirm the issue(s) are gone.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

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