Upper ball joint rebuild

E-Type
1

Hello, I just wanted to share my experience with rebuilding the upper ball joints on my 1970 FHC.

Someone prior to me had assembled them with shims with a center hole that would not clear the spring outside diameter. They came apart that way and due to a lack of information, I reassembled them as they had come apart. The shims in the rebuild kit had a larger inside diameter than those I removed, but still not enough to clear the spring. This created a situation where the shims compressed the spring the distance of the shim thickness. Now I determined the inner shim diameter should clear the outer diameter of the spring. This allows the setting of the 0.004 inch (0.01 mm) clearance of the upper ball socket as per the specification in the shop manuals. (Both factory and Bentley.) After this clearance is set, install the spring contacting only the upper ball socket and the top cover. I found the circlip in the aftermarket kit was a smaller outside diameter than the groove in the A-arm and fit loosely. When I separated the upper joint from the stub axle carrier, the circlip failed and the inner parts went flying. Found them all. The original circlips were a snug fit and I reused them.

Here is what I did to prep the A-arm socket and the ball pins. The socket in the A-arm had minor galling due to lack of lubrication. I polished out the high spots using wet dry sandpaper: 220, 320, 600, 1500, finishing up with 3000 grit. I polished the ball pins in the same manner. I could no longer detect any high spots and any small pits will hold a little grease.

As per the manual I assembled the joint without the spring, shimming until it was tight. I then swapped out the shims and top covers until I arrived at the 0.004 in clearance.I found the top covers to vary in thickness from 0.074 to 0.081 inch. the final movement feels good to me. It happens that 0.004 inch is the valve clearance of many of the air cooled VWs I have had in the past, after a while you develop a feel for that slight clearance.

The greatest amount of time was spent determining how the joints go together. I am waiting on some shims I hope are correct. If not, I will clearance the shims I have to clear the springs.

The images show before and after of the A-arm sockets and ball pins. I hope this helps.

Keep smiling,

Mike
Hello, I just wanted to share my experience with rebuilding the upper ball joints on my 1970 FHC.

Someone prior to me had assembled them with shims with a center hole that would not clear the spring outside diameter. They came apart that way and due to a lack of information, I reassembled them as they had come apart. The shims in the rebuild kit had a larger inside diameter than those I removed, but still not enough to clear the spring. This created a situation where the shims compressed the spring the distance of the shim thickness. Now I determined the inner shim diameter should clear the outer diameter of the spring. This allows the setting of the 0.004 inch (0.01 mm) clearance of the upper ball socket as per the specification in the shop manuals. (Both factory and Bentley.) After this clearance is set, install the spring contacting only the upper ball socket and the top cover. I found the circlip in the aftermarket kit was a smaller outside diameter than the groove in the A-arm and fit loosely. When I separated the upper joint from the stub axle carrier, the circle failed and the inner parts went flying. Found them all. The original circlips were a snug fit and I reused them.

Here is what I did to prep the A-arm socket and the ball pins. The socket in the A-arm had minor galling due to lack of lubrication. I polished out the high spots using wet dry sandpaper: 220, 320, 600, 1500, finishing up with 3000 grit. I polished the ball pins in the same manner. I could no longer detect any high spots and any small pits will hold a little grease.

As per the manual I assembled the joint without the spring, shimming until it was tight. I then swapped out the shims and top covers until I arrived at the 0.004 in clearance.I found the top covers to vary in thickness from 0.074 to 0.081 inch. the final movement feels good to me. It happens that 0.004 inch is the valve clearance of many of the air cooled VWs I have had in the past, after a while you develop a feel for that slight clearance.

The greatest amount of time was spent determining how the joints go together. I am waiting on some shims I hope are correct. If not, I will clearance the shims I have to clear the springs.

The images show before and after of the A-arm sockets and ball pins. I hope this helps.

Keep smiling,

Mike

IMG_0444
IMG_0444.jpeg4032Ă—3024 1.61 MB

IMG_0476
IMG_0476.jpeg4032Ă—3024 1.84 MB

IMG_0470
IMG_0470.jpeg4032Ă—3024 1.48 MB

IMG_0474
IMG_0474.jpeg4032Ă—3024 1.87 MB

2

Hello Mike,
As per Andrew’s comment in the E Type Forum, your method may not really be a fix. Removing metal from a worn surface won’t make the ball fit well. You may end up with a bit better bearing at the very lower area of the Ball Pin, but not further up the Sphere.

Originally, the Spherical Socket component of the wishbone, was machined to the tolerance limits of 1.188" and 1.191". After machining, the Spherical surface was induction hardened to a min of 650 VPN (approximately 58 RHC) for a depth from 0.030" to 0.050". By polishing away the high spots of an already worn feature will have taken the socket well out of tolerance and depending on the degree of wear, probably through the induction hardened surface.

I’ve successfully repaired these before by building the surface up with weld using welding wire of the like material, machining the area to original specs and having the surface heat treated. The material used in the wishbone is a through hardening steel. Accordingly; the only viable heat treatment method is Induction Hardening to result in a hard surface with a tough surrounding substrate. Nitriding would also be a possibility, but by virtue of the process, the whole component would be heated and those areas not to be hardened would have to be masked. With Induction Hardening, the heat affected area is localized.

The welding rod used needs to be a high carbon rod so as to be able to respond to Induction Hardening and a Chromoly, or Nitralloy grade for Nitriding to be successful. The welded area can’t be in an annealed state for Nitriding to work.

Its hardly a viable job when only one, or two components are involved, so I tend to accumulate a few before setting up to carry out this work. Of late, I’ve been fitting the Nylon Insert version being sold by SNG Barratt and others.

Following are pictures of the Nylon Insert Component assembly and graphic representation of the Tool Path to machine the cavity to accept same.

Ball%20Joint%20Cavity%20Profile1
Ball Joint Cavity Profile1.JPG1068Ă—857 21.3 KB

Ball%20Joint%20Cavity%20Tool%20Path1
Ball Joint Cavity Tool Path1.JPG1187Ă—829 152 KB

Regards,

Bill

2 Likes
3

where are you located?

4

Thanks for the info. I did not go into enough detail on the condition of the socket. It was not worn with high spots. It had a few slight areas of gouging. Maybe created by a small piece of grit. Perhaps introduced during servicing by failure to clean the zerk fitting before greasing. Like a divot on a golf course. All I did was take the built up material down to the original surface. The area this material came from remained as a slight scrape. It is very small percentage of the total contact area and of a depth perceived rather than felt.

The last time I drove the car, there were no indications of worn ball joints, and when checking it, the movement and resistance by hand before packing with grease is smooth and even through the full range of motion. I am aware that if worn out of round, no amount sanding will make it smaller. I only used light hand (one finger) pressure and went through the finer grits to cleanup and polish. No dremel tool used. I am away for a while. When I get home, I will mic the socket to determine out of round.

I found out long ago after cutting a board too short, it is very difficult to then cut it longer. I have a friend who claims to have a board stretcher for those situations.

SNG Barratt has the upper wishbones with uprated ball joint installed for $328.00 each side. No issues with machining and heat treating. If my fix doesn’t work, I have some options. The reason for my original post was to point out the incorrect assembly sequence and wrong spacers used in my joints at some point. And that the rebuild kits I obtained also had spacers with too small of an inside diameter to clear the spring. The cleanup of my socket was an aside that got in the way of my original intention of sharing the assembly of the joint as per the factory manual.

Thanks for the input, Bill, I appreciate the response from you and Andrew. I take it as watching my back. I am located in East Tennessee. How about you? It would be nice to have a few resources around. I just returned to my Jag project after a seven year break while life got in the way. Now I am able to make it my main focus, and my wife really wants me to get it back on the road.

Keep smiling,
Mike Dwyer

5

Hello Bill and Mike,
I’m in Victoria, Australia.

Regards,

Bill

6

that’s all? About 12 years since tear down here

7

For what it’s worth I just rebuilt my upper ball joints using the original balls and arms. They required .024” of shims to take up all the play. Personally I rebuild them as tight as possible, if the snap ring goes in and the ball moves in all directions with some friction by hand, we’re done.

2 Likes
8

I just want you to know… Y’all’s (yes that’s a word) stories are not inspiring… 12/25/2020 my goal.

1 Like
9

And I thought all y’alls was the plural responding to more than one.:rofl: Hope to be on the road this year.

Cheers,
Mike 70 FHC

1 Like
10

Classic Minis use a shimmed ball-joint design that is sort of an inverted version of the Jaguar design.

While OE parts were very good quality, the repro parts (male and female) are covered in high and low spots. No amount of fiddling with shims will get you a consistent “stiffness”, and even if you get it “right” by some stroke of luck, the joints will loosen up almost immediately as the high-spots get worn off on the first drive down the highway.

The best trick anyone ever taught me was to lap them in with valve lapping paste. You smear the paste into the female socket, insert the ball as it would be installed during operation, then wrap the threads of the “ball” with tape, and clamp your drill chuck into the protected threads. Then, using low speed and light pressure, you can truly “match” the parts to each other, and achieve a beautifully smooth finish on both parts…once shimmed, they should give very consistent resistance to movement that should last for many miles, if properly lubricated.

Each one should take more than 5 mins to lap in. I can’t even imagine the task of sanding both components by hand, using varying grades of sandpaper.

1 Like
11

Shoot, and here I was, thinking only I knew that one…:wink:

12

Those Mini guys are a crafty bunch of beady eyed perverts, you know…

1 Like
13

Anybody who put the speedo cable and/or the lower radiator hose where they did?

Perverted!

14

stopped to help a Mini guy broke down in the middle of the road once

His recently fitted ball joints has snapped on both sides, leaving his wheels askew

15

Never heard of that one…but, there are a lot of questionable repro parts out there for most 50-60 year old cars nowadays.

1 Like
16

never seen a broken ball joint on any other vehicle, but there must be something in there, as another time, I popped into a mate of mine, a very experienced British car mechanic, and found him throwing tools around his workshop, and swearing, with a Mini on the hoist for front end work, he didnt usually act like that at all

17

Older American cars used to break lower ball joints fairly often, due to poor engineering.

18

Wigster – please define or give a MY range.
I am actively searching for new acquisitions: 1965 Riviera and 1970/71 Buick GS Stage 1.
Are they Older American cars??

19

Yes…late 59s to early 80s, plus GM pickups.

The BJs were ofttimes non-greaseable, especially post-1975(ish) so would fail pretty frequently.

Just inspect the wear and replace.

20

and I thought y"all was already plural