[v12-engine] 1982 West German inported XJ12 HELP!

V12-Engine
1

First off let me introduce myself. My name is Scotty and have been
fooling around with Jags for a few years. I am a new car dealer and
enjoy working on ‘‘my’’ cars. I just purchased a ‘‘Grey Market’’ XJ12
to have some fun with… This car was sitting for many years an only
has 37,000 miles on it. The problem I have is no injector pulse and
no spark. When I first tried to start it I had spark buy no pulse.
now I have neither. So I have spent 2 days on this site and the
internet looking for an answer. I need to know if the Crane xr700
that I installed today gives the ECU the signal for the FI or does
something else do this. The distributor had the lucas 54419247
style pickup. is this all the should be inside or am I missing the
reed style pickup? All the things I have found show this.I know the
ECU is good because I sub’ed it into a 89 xjs today and the car ran
fine. I guess my qoestions are
1 What sends the signal to the ecm?
2 what distributor set up should I have?
3 Any other thing to look for?
3.Can I post pictures on the forum to help see what I have or dont
have?
Thanks very much,
Scotty–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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2

Scotty,

First thing to learn is if it’s HE or PreHE. The HE was introduced in the US
in 1982 as I recall, but some things you say suggest yours is a PreHE. But
in other places it looks like you have an HE.

One way to tell is to look at the angle of the spark plugs. If 1A is angled
such that you can easily replace the plug without a special tool or removing
the AC compressor it’s a PreHE. Or, look a the ECU in the boot. The PreHE
uses the 3CU whereas the HE is something else… 6CU I believe. If it’s an
HE the Crane XR700 isn’t a good match.

On the PreHE the distributor, OE or Crane, there is a pickup that interacts
with the sends pulses to the ignition amplifier. The OE uses a magnetic
proximity principle, whereas the Crane uses a photocell looking through a
slotted disk. The separate OE trigger board is not removed in the Crane
conversion. It sends signals to the ECU to drive the EFI. Originally it used
reed switches, but the upgraded part employs Hall effect transistors. Both
the board and rotor have to be changed. The Hall effect has a 4th wire since
it needs 12 volts whereas the reed switch doesn’t. So count the flat wire
bundle going rearwards from the dizzy to see which you have.

What makes me think it might be an HE is that you can switch out with an 89
ECU. There is no way that would work with a PreHE. So, we need some
clarification here.

Ed Sowell
'76 XJ-S coupe, red
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html

First off let me introduce myself. My name is Scotty and have been
fooling around with Jags for a few years. I am a new car dealer and
enjoy working on ‘‘my’’ cars. I just purchased a ‘‘Grey Market’’ XJ12
to have some fun with… This car was sitting for many years an only
has 37,000 miles on it. The problem I have is no injector pulse and
no spark. When I first tried to start it I had spark buy no pulse.
now I have neither. So I have spent 2 days on this site and the
internet looking for an answer. I need to know if the Crane xr700
that I installed today gives the ECU the signal for the FI or does
something else do this. The distributor had the lucas 54419247
style pickup. is this all the should be inside or am I missing the
reed style pickup? All the things I have found show this.I know the
ECU is good because I sub’ed it into a 89 xjs today and the car ran
fine. I guess my qoestions are
1 What sends the signal to the ecm?
2 what distributor set up should I have?
3 Any other thing to look for?
3.Can I post pictures on the forum to help see what I have or dont
have?
Thanks very much,
Scotty

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3

In reply to a message from Ed Sowell sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

Ed,
Thanks for the help. The ECU is the 6CU and the plug is easy to get
to. So I guess that it is the HE. Now what should I do to get this
running. Thanks Scotty–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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4

In reply to a message from GSX sent Fri 18 Dec 2009:

For some odd reason the car has this distributor in it. No wonder I
am having a hard time. this carb. dist.will not work on a FI engine
will it? Scotty

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/DistributorOPUS.html--
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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5

Scotty,

to have some fun with… This car was sitting for many years an only
has 37,000 miles on it.

If you are serious about this car, resist the urge to hear it roar to life
immediately. Do some general maintenance first.

The first thing I would do is be sure the fuel tank and sump are reasonably
clean. Also change the fuel filter, which is probably in the boot. Check
condition of hoses, and replace the screen on the pickup tube in the sump.
Then under the bonnet, replace the plugs, plug leads, all hoses, and change
the oil and coolant. While the plugs are out squirt some oil in the
cylinders.

The problem I have is no injector pulse and
no spark. When I first tried to start it I had spark buy no pulse.
now I have neither.

Deal with these issues one at a time. Might work on the spark first since
there was some initially. Check for 12v to the coil with key in Start and
Run positions. Then look over the wires and connectors connected to the
dizzy.

I need to know if the Crane xr700
that I installed today gives the ECU the signal for the FI or does
something else do this.

Since yours is an HE I can’t over nearly as good advice as HE owners can.
However, you should download Kirby Palms free online book. Link from my
Website.

The distributor had the lucas 54419247
style pickup. is this all the should be inside or am I missing the
reed style pickup?
I guess my qoestions are
1 What sends the signal to the ecm?
2 what distributor set up should I have?

Go to the AJ6 Engineering Website for a description of your EFI system.
http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/lucas_efi.php

3.Can I post pictures on the forum to help see what I have or dont
have?

You can’t attach anything to a posting, but there is a facility for posting
photos at the http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/

Ed Sowell
'76 XJ-S coupe, red
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html

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6

Scotty,

This from Kirby’s book:
"Up until 1980, the XJ S had a Bosch D-Jetronic EFI system that required a
trigger board within the distributor and a rotor with a magnet in the
counterweight. From 1980 on, the Digital P EFI system was used, and it
merely picked up the ignition pulses – no trigger board required. "

I’m out of my depth here, but this seems to fit the description of the dizzy
you’re looking at… no trigger board. The fiber composition disk has little
rods around the perimeter that are sensed by the magnetic pickup. This goes
to the ignition amplifier. I don’t know where the Digitial P EFI system gets
the ignition pulses Kirby refers to, but I guess the wire to the coil +
probably hooks into the harness going aft to the ECU. So that distributor
might work in your car.

You really should read some of the sources I’ve referred to, beginning with
the AJ6 Engineering description of the Digital P EFI system. These sources
are just a mouse click away. Kirby’s book is so large it can be daunting,
but it’s pretty easy to find your way around by looking at the table of
contents. The page numbers there are hyperlinked so a CTRL-right click takes
you to the page. (I’m assuming you can open a MS Word document.)

Ed Sowell
'76 XJ-S coupe, red
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html

In reply to a message from GSX sent Fri 18 Dec 2009:

For some odd reason the car has this distributor in it. No wonder I
am having a hard time. this carb. dist.will not work on a FI engine
will it? Scotty

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/DistributorOPUS.html

Scotty

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7

GSX wrote:

For some odd reason the car has this distributor in it. No wonder I am
having a hard time. this carb. dist.will not work on a FI engine will
it?

Not on a D Jetronic, it won’t! However, it’s worth noting that the
Lucas OPUS distributor that works with the D Jetronic EFI doesn’t
look all that different from this one. The primary difference is
that it has a “trigger board” mounted in it just below the rotor. As
mentioned on that web page, the rotor shown is actually the one
intended for use with the D Jetronic trigger board.

Oddly enough, I think it may actually be possible for that
distributor to work with the Digital P EFI system. It’s a bodge, but
it might work. The only thing the Digital P system needs from the
ignition system is a triggering pulse, which it can get from the (-)
terminal on the coil – or, alternatively, from a terminal on the
ballast resistor pack intended to drive the tachometer. The Lucas AB
14 ign amp has two separate feeds for the tach and the EFI system,
but they are the same signal, and I have no idea why you couldn’t
just splice them together.

We’re still unclear about just exactly what this engine is. Please
check the spark plugs. If they point straight up, this is a pre-H.E.
If they are canted towards the centerline, it is an H.E. This makes
a world of difference, and you’ll need to know which engine you have
with pretty much everything you do on it.

Also, please tell us if you have an ignition amplifier on the top of
the LH intake manifold that says Lucas AB 14 on it. Alternatively,
tell us if you have an ignition amplifier anywhere – in the vee, on
top of the radiator, anywhere – that looks like an aluminum block
with fins all over it.

Do you have a VOM? Because you’re gonna need one with the next round
of suggestions. Might as well hustle on down to Harbor Freight Tools
or Lowe’s and buy one.

– Kirbert

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8

Ed Sowell wrote:

I don’t know
where the Digitial P EFI system gets the ignition pulses Kirby refers
to

The order of evolution generally went like this:

Lucas OPUS with carbs

Lucas OPUS with D Jetronic

.
.
.

Lucas CEI with Digital P

Marelli with Digital P

Nippondenso

Now, where those dots appear is where this car is. The question is,
were the Lucas CEI and the Digital P introduced at the same time, or
are there cars with one and not the other? If one came before the
other, which came first?

We do know from Bywater’s reports that the Digital P came before the
H.E., as the Digital P pre-H.E.'s are the ones with 10:1 compression
that are supposedly the hot ticket.

We also know that Jaguar occasionally did some odd stuff, such as
continuing to install older style systems in XJ12’s while moving to
newer stuff in XJ-S’s, apparently to avoid having to recertify
emissions for the handful of XJ12’s they expected to sell.

Now, if the Digital P came first and this particular car has
Digital P EFI and a Lucas OPUS ignition – we know for a fact that it
has the OPUS distributor, apparently – that could explain what we’re
seeing. I would still think it odd that the distributor didn’t have
the mount bosses for a trigger board, but perhaps Jaguar spent that
long going through the NOS distributors it had purchased for use in
carb cars.

Patiently waiting for answers to earlier questions about H.E. vs. pre-
H.E., ignition amps, etc.

– Kirbert

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9

Wait…
he said if the plug is angled and easy to get at it is likely Pre-HE

He said if it has 6CU it is likely HE

You have a contradiction here; what do you have and does it have the
wrong ECU ??
Bill
AlaskaOn Dec 18, 2009, at 8:40 AM, GSX wrote:

In reply to a message from Ed Sowell sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

Ed,
Thanks for the help. The ECU is the 6CU and the plug is easy to get
to. So I guess that it is the HE.

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10

In reply to a message from GSX sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

, from a terminal on the
ballast resistor pack intended to drive the tachometer. The Lucas
AB
14 ign amp has two separate feeds for the tach and the EFI system,
but they are the same signal, and I have no idea why you couldn’t
just splice them together.
I think you might be on to something here. I will check this in the
morning. I have done most of the maintenance items you reccomend
and will finish the others.–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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11

I recall that those hot ticket V12s were built early-mid 1980…1980
calendar year, that is, not model year.

Finding one in a 1982 model year car would seem old but…heh heh
heh…given the iffy model year designations on euro/grey market cars I
wouldn’t rule it out.

The production date of the car from the door or fender tag might help.
Lacking that we can approximate the build date with the last 6 digits of the
VIN

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

.
We do know from Bywater’s reports that the Digital P came before the
H.E., as the Digital P pre-H.E.'s are the ones with 10:1 compression
that are supposedly the hot ticket.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !From: “Kirbert” palmk@nettally.com

12

In reply to a message from GSX sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

The production date of the car from the door or fender tag might
help.
Lacking that we can approximate the build date with the last 6
digits of the
VIN
VIN# DDRLW4CC326487
ECU: 6CU 83632A–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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13

In reply to a message from GSX sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

We’re still unclear about just exactly what this engine is. Please
check the spark plugs. If they point straight up, this is a pre-
H.E.
If they are canted towards the centerline, it is an H.E. This makes
a world of difference, and you’ll need to know which engine you
have
with pretty much everything you do on it

Ok I have compared my car to an 88 Hess & E and now I can see how
the pluge are different. My plugs are easy to get to. The 3 front
plugs face towards the front and the 3 rear plugs face to the rear.–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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14

In USA terms that would be a 1981 model year (VIN 320092 thru 330273), that
VIN range being built from about Aug 1980 thru July 1981. I suspect your car
was built early in calendar year 1981.

It just might have the transitional ignition/fuel injection configuration.

Personally I’d use the presence of an intake-manifold-mounted ignition
amplifier as the fastest method of identifying an HE motor.

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

In reply to a message from GSX sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

The production date of the car from the door or fender tag might
help.
Lacking that we can approximate the build date with the last 6
digits of the
VIN
VIN# DDRLW4CC326487
ECU: 6CU 83632A

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15

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sat 19 Dec 2009:

I could be wrong but as I remember it in the US the XJS (which was
the only V12 car Jag sold in the US in those years) was not sold as
an 81 model due to emissions issues. At the time there was a
question about the future of the XJS in the US. Then for 1982 it
was reintroduced as the HE with lower emissions and better mpg
along with the wood interior trim. The reason I remember this is I
bought a 76 XJS in 1980 and I was thinking it would be collectible
as there was only a 5 year run in the US with low numbers sold. At
the time I was actually disappionted when the 82 was introduced.
However I still sold the car for almost what I paid after 2 years.
This would mean that if your car is an 81 V12 I would expect it to
be pre-HE. This also appears to be clear from your description of
the plug orientation. In other words you must have one of the last
run of pre-HE cars. Being a Euro version once running this might be
very good when you step on the pedal or do a tune up and not so
good when you need to fill the tanks. BTW this sounds like a very
cool car. Once sorted I think you will really have something. Ed
Sowell should be your man on the Pre HE stuff. Good Luck–
Mike Blair 2x94 XJS(6.0 Coupe&4.0 Convert)+85 HE&96XJ12
powhatan/Va, United States
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16

In reply to a message from GSX sent Thu 17 Dec 2009:

UPDATE
I put it all back together and put new ends on the harness that
plus into the resistor and she fired with the crane xr700 and
starting fluid. I now have injector pulse but the injectors are not
injecting. Could this be from sitting so long?
Thanks for all your help.–
Scotty
Charlotte N.C., United States
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17

Doug Dwyer wrote:

Personally I’d use the presence of an intake-manifold-mounted ignition
amplifier as the fastest method of identifying an HE motor.

Thing is, I’m not entirely sure that’s valid. The intake-manifold-
mounted AB 14 ignition amplifier is a sure method of identifying
Lucas CEI ignition, but I’m not sure the Lucas CEI ignition was
introduced at the exact same time and in the exact same models as the
H.E. engine. And in this particular case, it’s just that sort of
uncertainty that was causing issues. We needed to know whether this
was an H.E. or a pre-H.E. by the characteristics of the engine
itself, not ancillaries bolted to it.

– Kirbert

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18

GSX wrote:

Ok I have compared my car to an 88 Hess & E and now I can see how the
pluge are different. My plugs are easy to get to. The 3 front plugs
face towards the front and the 3 rear plugs face to the rear.

Ahhhhh, a 1982 pre-H.E. engine. Methinks you have quite a prize
there. Offhand I have no doubt that you have Digital P EFI, which
explains the 6CU ECU. I’m a bit surprised at the Lucas OPUS
ignition.

Here’s the trick: The EFI ECU in the trunk needs a trigger signal,
the same signal that appears on the (-) terminal of the coil.
Ideally, a 100 ohm resistor should be in the line to prevent a short
back at the ECU from causing damage to the ignition system, which is
why later OPUS systems had it connected through the ballast resistor
pack. The ballast resistor pack actually has several resistors
inside, not just the ballast resistor, and one is the 100 ohm
resistor for this signal.

On later Digital P cars, this signal was sent via a coaxial wire that
causes all sorts of consternation because it gets hard and brittle
with heat, then cracks, then the core shorts out against the shield
and the car comes to a halt. The coax line is hidden inside a sheath
across the rear end of the engine behind the capstan; you have to
peel the sheath away to see the problem.

Thing is, your car is different. No idea what sort of wire is used
or where it is. You might wanna find it, though, and if it looks
like a regular size white wire that’s brittle and cracked, look
closer to see if that little white wire is actually a coax wire and
replace the cracked section if it is.

Don’t overlook the ballast resistor pack as a possible cause of
trouble. Sometimes it goes bad. In my book there’s a diagram of the
resistors inside that you can use to check it with a VOM.

Also: I usually recommend that Lucas OPUS owners replace their
ignition systems with something more modern; several owners have
reported that their cars run noticeably better than when their OPUS
was working perfectly. A Lucas CEI would be an excellent candidate
in your case, if you can find a replacement distributor and amp; you
have no need for the trigger board or funny rotor typically used on
pre-H.E. engines. Others simply install an aftermarket ignition
system such as a Crane. There’s also something called ReOpus, which
is an original-looking Opus amp that actually has modern guts inside.

– Kirbert

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19

Ahhhh…

Good point

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

.

Thing is, I’m not entirely sure that’s valid. The intake-manifold-
mounted AB 14 ignition amplifier is a sure method of identifying
Lucas CEI ignition, but I’m not sure the Lucas CEI ignition was
introduced at the exact same time and in the exact same models as the
H.E. engine. And in this particular case, it’s just that sort of
uncertainty that was causing issues. We needed to know whether this
was an H.E. or a pre-H.E. by the characteristics of the engine
itself, not ancillaries bolted to it.

Doug Dwyer wrote:

Personally I’d use the presence of an intake-manifold-mounted ignition
amplifier as the fastest method of identifying an HE motor

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !From: “Kirbert” palmk@nettally.com

20

GSX wrote:

I put it all back together and put new ends on the harness that
plus into the resistor and she fired with the crane xr700 and
starting fluid.

Excellent! Halfway home.

I now have injector pulse but the injectors are not
injecting. Could this be from sitting so long?

Actually, yes! Get a 9V transistor radio battery and connect it to
each injector, one at a time, and listen for a click. I’d hate to
think they are all jammed shut, but they could be. Meanwhile, might
as well go ahead and pour a bottle of injector cleaner into the tank.

There are oodles of other possible problems, though, that have
nothing to do with the car sitting so long – other than they might
explain WHY the car was sitting so long! One excellent possibility
is the fuel pump control circuit in the ECU, a notorious cause of
problems in the 6CU. At the fuel pump relay, one of the wires to the
relay coil is orange and it goes to the ECU. Jumper this wire to
ground. This will result in the fuel pump relay being energized
whenever the ignition is on. If the car starts and runs fine, you
can drive it like that indefinitely. If you crash the car, though,
the last thing you want to do just before passing out from your
injuries is to reach over and shut off the ignition, because the fuel
pump will just continue to pump fuel all over the accident scene.

Another excellent possibility is the wire that provides a trigger
signal from the ignition system to the ECU, as described in a
previous message. BTW, does your tach seem to work when the engine
runs on starting fluid?

– Kirbert

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