5.3 won’t start. Over the past 3 months I have replaced
everything on the engine. It had sheared the woodruff key and
the damper/pulley assembly had come loose from the crank. The
1990 Marelli used a damper with a cone unit inside the damp
with a taper. The cone had broken apart and the piece with the
key is no longer available. I have installed a damper from a
newer saloon that does not have the taper. The car will hit on
a few cylenders but is not close to starting. The question
is: where is the key way on the crank in regards to TDC and
could the new damper have a different TDC mark from the
original.
If the two dampers are stacked on top of each other and the
timing marks stamped on the edge of the pulleys are lined up,
then the 3 timing legs are out of sinc with each other. About
half way between the other unit. The damper pulley from the
original taper unit has 2 marks. One mark also has a large A
stamped on the side. The other mark is exactly the same as the
above but is about 12 degrees away from the 1st mark. In
either case…the timing fingers do not line up with the
timing mark. Therefore, the difference has to be the location
of the keyway. I was recently told on the forum that he had
exchanged a taper damper for the streight damper and there were
no problems. Why is mine different? Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated. As a last thought, could the damper from the 6
liter saloon/sedan be different from the XJ-S?
Thanks,
Harry Simmons
90 XJ-S 5.3 convertible
Charlotte, NC–
48 Saloon
Charlotte, NC, United States
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On the front cone, the woodruff key slot for the crank and the key slot for
the damper are 180 degrees apart.
The timing mark on the damper (marked “A”) is 30 degrees clockwise from the
damper woodruff key slot. (making it 150 degrees anti-clockwise from the
crank woodruff key slot)
I am afraid I don’t have the data on where on the crank the woodruff key
slot is w.r.t. TDC.
Could check on one of my cranks and get back to you on the crank nose
detail.
Rgds
Mark-----Original Message-----
The question
is: where is the key way on the crank in regards to TDC and
could the new damper have a different TDC mark from the
original.
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Ok. The crank has 3 woodruff key slots for 606 keys (3/16" x 3/4") woodruff
keys. (Typically 0.74" dia, 5/16" high and 3/16" wide). The rear slot is for
the oil pump drive (20 tooth), the middle one for the timing chain drive
(also 20 tooth) and the front one for the damper cone.
Theses keyways are all aligned with #1 & #6 throw. i.e. to TDC.
The internal keyway and external keyway in the damper cone are diametrically
opposed.
At TDC, the keyways on the crank are all pointing straight up, and the
damper key is then straight down (180 degrees apart) or pointing at BDC.
The “A” mark on the damper is 30 degrees clockwise from the damper key. So
this is 30 degrees clockwise from BDC or at 7 o’clock looking at the engine
from the front (damper end).
I don’t have an engine with the 3 legged timing “wheel” so I can’t advise on
alignment of that.
Rgds
Mark
PS. The oil pump drive can only go one way with its teeth closest to the #1
bearing; its 3.5mm internal chamfer mates against the 3mm fillet on #1 main
bearing. The timing chain drive appears to be able to fit either way around
and is almost exactly symmetrical … presumably meant to be symmetrical.
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In reply to a message from 3210 sent Sun 21 Feb 2016:
Mark, Thanks for the info. The engine is still in the car and
Hopefully, there is no need to go behind the front oil seal.
It has been thought that the timing chain has moved but now
that I see the fingers on the marelli timing are off, This
would explain why the engine will not start. With the keyway
on the shaft at TDC and the #1A piston all the way up, it looks
hopeful. I was afraid that something internal had been bent or
broken. I still have good compression in all cylenders.
If someone can now tell me about the timing fingers, and why
the timing marks are different on the 2 damper pulleys we may
get the engine running after all. I have had 2 notes off line
saying that the pulleys are the same so I will try to post some
photos this afternoon. It may be a model or year difference.
Best, Harry–
48 Saloon
Charlotte, NC, United States
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Accordingly to previous posts, the Marelli trigger wheel provides triggers 8
degrees ATDC for each cylinder group (A Bank), while B bank is calculated
from the A bank timing.
Additionally, it will not fire if it does not have the front timing wheel
sensor, the flywheel trigger (160 teeth) (both gaps of 0.45mm - 1.0mm) and
the manifold pressure sensor. Both sensors should measure about the same
resistance (about 700 ohm?)
There are reports of 2 different timing mark positions on Marelli dampers.
However, I think the damper is also known to “spin” as it gets tired, so the
timing marks can not be relied upon. Although this might be because rebuilt
dampers might not maintain alignment? In any event, the alignment mark is
theoretically irrelevant to the Marelli cars.
I also seem to remember that there were two different timing pointers, in
different positions, so it might be that swapping dampers from one engine to
another might “muddle” the timing marks??
Rgds
Mark
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In reply to a message from Mark Eaton sent Mon 22 Feb 2016:
The dampers are totally interchangeable regardless of cone
or non cone type. I run a cone type from 89 marelli on a
94 xj12 motor with no issues at all.–
stephen davis 1976 XJ-S, 1989 XJR-S, Sl SWB XJ12 x 3
gorae, Australia
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In reply to a message from 3210 sent Sun 21 Feb 2016:
That may have been me Harry. Keep in mind that the
keyways in the dampers will be different due to the
missing cone. The position of that keyway should in effect
be 180 degrees different to the non cone unit.
The keyways in the cranks are the same.
Xjs and marelli ignition saloon are the same.–
The original message included these comments:
of the keyway. I was recently told on the forum that he had
exchanged a taper damper for the streight damper and there were
no problems. Why is mine different? Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated. As a last thought, could the damper from the 6
liter saloon/sedan be different from the XJ-S?
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In reply to a message from baxtor sent Mon 22 Feb 2016:
I am an idiot.
Of course TDC on #1 is not vertically up, but 30 degrees
anticlockwise from vertical. (Banks at 60 degrees).
Therefore when #1 is at TDC, the crank keys are at 30 BTDC
(11 o’clock) and the damper cone key is at 30 BBDC (5
o’clock) making the mark on the damper (’‘A’’) exactly BDC
(straight down).
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In reply to a message from Mark Eaton sent Mon 22 Feb 2016:
Sorry, I do not understand how to proceed. As Mark says,
With the cone adapter key at 6 o’clock, the key in the damper
is now at 12 o’clock. The timing mark A on the 5.3 taper is at
11 o’clock and is 180 degrees from the timing mark on the 6
liter streight damper that came from a Vandas Plas saloon with
the crank key at 6 o’clock, the only timing mark is at 5
o’clock.
I assume you are saying to forget about the timing marks on the
pulleys as the 3 fingers of the timing ring are now aligned the
same. This would allow for the rotor not facing the front when
using the timing mark on the damper. I therefore must stamp a
mark on the damper pulley 180 degrees if required to check the
timing chain, pistons or the rotor. Yes/No?
Thanks,
Harry Simmons
90 XJ-S 5.3 convertible
Charlotte, NC–
48 Saloon
Charlotte, NC, United States
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In reply to a message from 3210 sent Tue 23 Feb 2016:
Harry, the way l am interpreting what you are saying is
that if we forget about the cone for a moment and just
look at the dampers, the timing marks and keyway are in
the SAME position on both types.
Is that what you are saying?–
The original message included these comments:
With the cone adapter key at 6 o’clock, the key in the damper
is now at 12 o’clock. The timing mark A on the 5.3 taper is at
11 o’clock and is 180 degrees from the timing mark on the 6
liter streight damper that came from a Vandas Plas saloon with
the crank key at 6 o’clock, the only timing mark is at 5
o’clock.
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Kirbert
(Author of the Book, former owner of an '83 XJ-S H.E.)
11
On the front cone, the woodruff key slot for the crank and the key
slot for the damper are 180 degrees apart.
Thanks for clarifying that. Now, what I’d expect is that when the decision was
made to do away with the cone, the key slot in the coneless damper would be
located in the same place the key slot on the INSIDE of the cone would have
been, so the dampers are interchangeable. And that has apparently been
confirmed by at least one owner swapping dampers around. But the OP had
a cone failure while driving, replaced the damper with a coneless type, and
the engine won’t start. We’re just trying to confirm that his problem is NOT
the damper swap, that he must look elsewhere for his problem.
The timing mark on the damper (marked “A”) is 30 degrees clockwise
from the damper woodruff key slot. (making it 150 degrees
anti-clockwise from the crank woodruff key slot)
I am afraid I don’t have the data on where on the crank the woodruff
key slot is w.r.t. TDC.
Since the banks are inclined at 30 degrees from vertical, I think you just
clarified that the crank key slot will be pointing straight down at TDC on
cylinder 1A.
– Kirbert
Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 22 Feb 2016 at 14:07, Mark Eaton wrote:
Kirbert
(Author of the Book, former owner of an '83 XJ-S H.E.)
12
At TDC, the keyways on the crank are all pointing straight up, and the
damper key is then straight down (180 degrees apart) or pointing at
BDC.
OK, that’s 180 degrees opposite of what I understood from an earlier
message. And I presume “TDC” refers to the 1A and 6A cylinders?
The “A” mark on the damper is 30 degrees clockwise from the damper
key. So this is 30 degrees clockwise from BDC or at 7 o’clock looking
at the engine from the front (damper end).
Confused. Isn’t the A mark supposed to line up with 0 on the timing plate at
TDC on the 1A cylinder? This makes it sound like it’ll be 30 degrees away.
PS. The oil pump drive can only go one way with its teeth closest to
the #1 bearing; its 3.5mm internal chamfer mates against the 3mm
fillet on #1 main bearing. The timing chain drive appears to be able
to fit either way around and is almost exactly symmetrical …
presumably meant to be symmetrical.
I have suggested that, with the cone failure on the OP’s engine, perhaps the
timing chain key was sheared as well. That’d be really difficult to check or fix,
methinks. It also doesn’t fit the symptoms, as he claims to have good
compression.
– Kirbert
Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 23 Feb 2016 at 9:42, Mark Eaton wrote:
In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 25 Feb 2016:
Just a couple of thoughts, given the damage zustained
by the original cone/damper it is quite likely the
sensor mounting boss has been damaged enough to upset
the clearances. I could not find reference to that
having been checked.
I am also curious as to whether the comparisons
regarding keyways and timing marks are all being done
with components oriented correctly to each other as
they would be on the motor.–
stephen davis 1976 XJ-S, 1989 XJR-S, Sl SWB XJ12 x 3
gorae, Australia
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In reply to a message from baxtor sent Thu 25 Feb 2016:
Nice weekend for laying under the Jag. Yes, I have checked the
clearences on the crank and flywheel sensors…have even
changed the clearences with shims etc.up and down…no luck…
It would seem that if someone could tell me where the rotor
should point with the woodruff key slot on the crank at TDC,
then I would know if the problem is with the timing chain.
Since the compresson is good on all cylinders, it would seem
that I have not damaged internals and the problem is not with
the chain.
I have stamped a timing mark on the replacement streight sleeve
damper 180 from the original taper damper. Now, with the
streight 6 ltr. damper on the engine, and the new mark at 6
o’clock, the keyway on the DS is TDC and the Marelli 3 finger
timing ring is correct.
Is the rotor supposed to point streight ahead toward the
radiator and the indent mark on the distributor bottom ring?
Or is it 12 or other degrees off.
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Picture #6 – even if dizzy is slightly misaligned (the dot
and the notch don’t line up), the engine should fire up.
Picture #5 shows the CPS at 1A TDC
Steve–
The original message included these comments:
Is the rotor supposed to point streight ahead toward the
radiator and the indent mark on the distributor bottom ring?
Or is it 12 or other degrees off.
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John (CJ95) has some other pictures in his albums that might
be of interest.
Steve–
The original message included these comments:
I have stamped a timing mark on the replacement streight sleeve
damper 180 from the original taper damper. Now, with the
streight 6 ltr. damper on the engine, and the new mark at 6
o’clock, the keyway on the DS is TDC and the Marelli 3 finger
timing ring is correct.
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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Sun 28 Feb 2016:
Steve, Great news. The timing chain and innerds are OK.
John’s pictures were a big help along with the discussion
regarding the position of A1 from others. Thanks. I will try
to post some pictures and info when I get the car running.
With the 6 liter damper that I have, The Crank keyway is
between 4 and 5 o’clock when viewed from the radiator, and the
Marelli rotor is facing the front and the mark on the base of
the distributor. This matches with the new stamp mark I placed
180 degrees from the original 6 liter mark.
Now it is back to the electricals and the missing or delayed
electrons. At least, I have not allowed any smoke to escape.
Thanks again to everyone who has helped on and off the list.
Harry–
48 Saloon
Charlotte, NC, United States
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In reply to a message from 3210 sent Sun 28 Feb 2016:
Hi Harry:
Glad I was able to provide some information to clear things
up.
The electrical – Marelli car dies suddenly ONLY if you
loose the CPS or the flywheel sensor.
These are the suspects. Polarity is important, as well as
the gaps.
Triple check everything.
Steve
PS I am assuming it is ignition because you said earlier
that spraying fuel in the intakes changes nothing in the no
start condition. You need to verify that too.–
The original message included these comments:
Steve, Great news. The timing chain and innerds are OK.
John’s pictures were a big help along with the discussion
regarding the position of A1 from others. Thanks. I will try
to post some pictures and info when I get the car running.
With the 6 liter damper that I have, The Crank keyway is
between 4 and 5 o’clock when viewed from the radiator, and the
Marelli rotor is facing the front and the mark on the base of
the distributor. This matches with the new stamp mark I placed
180 degrees from the original 6 liter mark.
Now it is back to the electricals and the missing or delayed
electrons. At least, I have not allowed any smoke to escape.
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In reply to a message from sbobev sent Sun 28 Feb 2016:
Recap: Car apparently coasted to the side of the road due to
damper sliding forward on crank shaft. This was not discovered
until the CPS and flywheel sensors, amplifiers, coils, fuel
pump, fuel regulator, temp. sensor, wiring, and others checked
or replaced. about a half hour before the failure, the car was
spun up to 90+ with the foot on the floor for a short
spurt…strange engine clicking/clunking noises began so
speed was reduced to 60 and then pulled to side of road.
Inspected engine and seeing nothing out of sorts and the sounds
normal, the car was driven for another 30 minutes at 65 mph.
Then it just quit running and coasted to the side of the road.
Before the loose damper assembly was discovered,. the engine
would hit on a few cylinders and even bang a bit. one night, it
even idled at 1100 rpm for a few seconds. Then nothing.
Compression good on all holes. Spark is powerful. r starting
fluid will not make it run or even try to hit on a few
cylinders.
Thanks again to all who have offered suggestions and supplied
technical info and histories of similar problems. It is now
just a matter of time before it runs again. As I only have
liability insurance, some solutions are not applicable.
Best,
Harry–
48 Saloon
Charlotte, NC, United States
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