[v12-engine] 6.0L Denso injectors

V12-Engine
9

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Mon 16 May 2011:

Tobmag,

Injector open time is a function of engine load and rpm. I do not
have any specific info for that, but if you can get your hands on
an o-scope, you can get it.

IIRC, maybe in the range of 3 ms at idle, and 14-16 ms at 2,000
rpm, but that is just a guess.

SD Faircloth–
The original message included these comments:

Do you have any more data on these injectors eg opening time (or
dea time or whaterver you would like to call it)?

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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10

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Wed 18 May 2011:

I think you missunderstod my question.

Im looking for the dead time eg the time it takes for the injector
to open when activated, normally between 0,6 to 1,3ms depending of
injectortype.
This info you can find for all Bosch injectors but when searching
info on the Denso injectors I score zero…

BR//Tobmag–
tobmag
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11

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Wed 18 May 2011:

Tobmag,

Sorry…I don’t have that info.

SD Faircloth–
The original message included these comments:

Im looking for the dead time eg the time it takes for the injector
to open when activated, normally between 0,6 to 1,3ms depending of
injectortype.
This info you can find for all Bosch injectors but when searching
info on the Denso injectors I score zero…

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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12

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Wed 18 May 2011:

Tobbe

In the Megasquirt world, we regard DEAD TIME as OPENING TIME

  • CLOSING TIME.

The OPENING TIME (and this varies as a function of voltage)
is the time the injector takes from when the moment injector
is ‘‘switched on’’ by the ECU till the time the injector
pintle hits the full open position and starts squirting
fuel. I’ve been able to measure the opening time on the
Jag’s low impedance injectors but high impedance injectors
as found on Rover V8’s did not show that ‘‘kink’’ in the
current curve on the scope.

CLOSING TIME is the time the injector takes from when the
ECU switches the injector OFF till the moment the pintle
drops back to its resting position and stops fuel flowing.
Closing time is typically much less that opening time (I am
told) and is generally disregarded.

BR
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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13

jagwit wrote:

In the Megasquirt world, we regard DEAD TIME as OPENING TIME

  • CLOSING TIME.

The OPENING TIME (and this varies as a function of voltage)
is the time the injector takes from when the moment injector
is ‘‘switched on’’ by the ECU till the time the injector
pintle hits the full open position and starts squirting
fuel.

CLOSING TIME is the time the injector takes from when the
ECU switches the injector OFF till the moment the pintle
drops back to its resting position and stops fuel flowing.
Closing time is typically much less that opening time (I am
told) and is generally disregarded.

Gee, it seems to me that the important factor would be opening time
MINUS closing time! If the two times happened to be equal, you could
disregard the whole concept – whatever amount of time the injector
is switched on is the time the fuel is flowing.

I suspect that part of the reason the opening time is longer than the
closing time is that, for the opening time, it’s not just about the
pintle itself moving but also for the fuel to start moving. After
all, the fuel will have inertia. For the closing time, once the
pintle slams shut the fuel’s inertia has no effect other than perhaps
a brief spike in pressure within the injector itself.

– Kirbert

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14

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Fri 20 May 2011:

Philip,

I think Tobmag is looking for a different ‘‘dead time’’ definition
than perhaps what Megasquirt uses.

In other tuning circles…dead time refers to the time it takes for
the injector pintle to begin MOVEMENT once voltage has been applied
to the injector coil., or if one wants to be more precise since
voltage is already at the injector…the time it takes for the
injector to begin movement once the injector coil is grounded.

In this instance…dead time would include the time it takes for
the coil to energize to a point where the magnetic effect of the
coil begins to lift the injector against injector spring pressure
and fuel pressure, and will vary based upon battery voltage, ECU
compensation for voltage, the specific injector, injector
temperature, etc, etc.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com–
The original message included these comments:

In the Megasquirt world, we regard DEAD TIME as OPENING TIME

  • CLOSING TIME.

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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15

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Sat 21 May 2011:

HI, SD, question; do any port fuel injection engines use
PIEZO electronic injectors YET? or ever?/

much faster injection events, and multi-injection events,
to control combustion and(from Roger) cooler combustion
simply by not putting to much fuel in all at once,reduced
possible detonation

I am aware that the newer direct injection systems are
using the PIEZO technology, like later diesels, because of
such high fuel pressures, gasoline 2200psi fuel pressures,
GM Ecotech etc. I bet that press. atomizes fuel,YEEKS.

it seems to be ALL about atomization changing into
Vaporization.
if yo get atomized fuel droplets into chamber,sure bet it
will detonate.
but if you can get only vaporized gases, chance of
detonation is greatly reduced or eliminated!

its about small but powerful future engines,that can be
economical as well.

I said this elsewhere, YUP! times they are achangin.

I love this stuff,makes life interesting.–
The original message included these comments:

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com

In the Megasquirt world, we regard DEAD TIME as OPENING TIME

  • CLOSING TIME.

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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16

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sat 21 May 2011:

Ron,

You asked…’‘Do any port fuel injection engines use PIEZO
electronic injectors yet ? or ever ?’’

There is some fascinating reading available on the web on the R&D
behind the use of piezo materials, piezo injectors, piezo
actuators, pumps, etc. and its use in direct injection
engines…both diesel and gasoline. Siemens, Bosch, Delphi,
Continental…to name the big players.

From what I read, I don’t think the intent was EVER to use piezo
technology in a multi-port injection application, rather the use on
direct injection systems only.

The technology and its application appears to be specifically
targeted to the items you mentioned. Overcoming, and improving on
injection triggering events (injector timing and control), the very
high pressures required to inject fuel directly into the cylinder,
increasing fuel efficiency, reducing emissions, greater fuel
atomization, etc.

An MPI injection system does not require the technology, not to
mention the cost found in piezo direct injection. The only (and
admittedly) poor analogy I can this of is…it would be akin to
using a surgeons scalpel to cut a 2x4, where a hand saw works just
fine.

There are still injector manufacturers improving MPI injectors.
Delphi and others for example use multiple holes at the injector
tip to atomize the fuel spray beyond the old school pintle
injector. Delphi will soon release (2012 ?) a heated tip injector
that will heat the fuel for ethanol blends to improve cold start
fuel atomization.

I love this stuff too, and one has to wonder what the technology
will be in another 10-15 years.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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17

SD Faircloth wrote:

An MPI injection system does not require the technology, not to
mention the cost found in piezo direct injection.

True enough, but it’s worth noting that those long-nose butane grille
lighters you can get from a Dollar store for $1 each have a piezo
ignition system. If they actually had an ignition coil to provide
the spark, I don’t think you could buy one for $1. So while piezo
injectors may be obscenely expensive today, perhaps there’s no
inherent reason that the cost might not drop precipitously as the
technology is developed.

There are still injector manufacturers improving MPI injectors.
Delphi and others for example use multiple holes at the injector tip
to atomize the fuel spray beyond the old school pintle injector.

Any idea how the valve works? There aren’t multiple pintles to plug
those multiple holes I presume.

I also wonder how it improves anything. The old-school injectors
have a pintle with a little head on it so that when it opens the fuel
sprays toward the point, hits this head, and scatters. If you had
multiple holes without such deflectors, you’d get a whole bunch of
narrow streams rather than the one scattered spray. Better?

Interestingly, back in the day while I was working at P&WA we were
working with the opposite problem. There was one bearing between two
hollow shafts, and getting oil to that bearing involved a little
spray nozzle that squirted the oil at a scoop on the outer shaft
going past at 9000 rpm. Ideally, you wanted that oil to emerge from
the nozzle as a straight stream so it would all hit the scoop – but
invariably it would spray instead so only a small portion would hit
the scoop. I wanted to do a bit of development on the nozzle to try
to get the spray to stay together as a stream, but it was decided
that enough oil was hitting the scoop so fuggetaboutit.

Delphi will soon release (2012 ?) a heated tip injector that will heat
the fuel for ethanol blends to improve cold start fuel atomization.

Why only for ethanol blends? Wouldn’t the same idea help with
conventional fuel?

– Kirbert

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18

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 22 May 2011:

I’m looking for the dead time used for MS EFI system but as far as
I see thats the same as eg Bosch states in their specs.

It was basiacally a just shot in the dark if anyone had the data
since you cant find a s#it on the internet about them…

Guess I have to spend some time to find the dead time directly im
MS.

Just mounted them in the car and also filled here up with E85 so
now the tuning starts.

BR//Tobmag–
tobmag
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19

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 22 May 2011:

HEY KIRBY!!

you ask, see if I can tell it.

those multi-hole injectors use only one valve but use a
small disc with around 6 holes to make a lot of small
droplets of Atomized fuel, that can Vaporize easier.

I probably said this somewhere,large droplets of fuel are
not good(take to long to vapoerize),so the smaller you can
make them the better for effincey.

a thin DISC can break up fuel quicker than a long tubular
hole, same size, same pressure.

that is precisly why direct chamber injection is the only
way for modern engines to go, instead of 40psi, its 2200psi,
stop and think about the droplet sizing.
as a useless bit of trivia, modern diesels have 25,000-
30,000 psi.

OK 1st car in modern era to use a disc in MPI injector
nozzle, our one and only GM, 1957 Corvette FI, thru
1965(guessin).

and this will get kirby(probably most of the guys)thinkin.

Pratt-Whitney great 3350hp,B29 WW2, bomber engines used
Direct chamber FUEL INJECTION, with the fuel injected down
thru the center elctrode of the spark plug, to get it in
center of chamber,and COOL THE PLUG FOR detonation control.

my question; what ever happened to that technology, it is
said that it would give to much better fuel milage, so it
was put into archives somewhere, orders from OIL companies.

John Lennon said it,we still look like peasents to him!!LOL–
The original message included these comments:

Any idea how the valve works? There aren’t multiple pintles to plug
those multiple holes I presume.
Why only for ethanol blends? Wouldn’t the same idea help with
conventional fuel?
– Kirbert

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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20

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sun 22 May 2011:

Kirby,

The piezo technology is already there and proven for injectors.
And the piezo technology was in use quite a bit before it was
applied to injectors. Your example plus used in telephone speakers,
and a list of others. Siemens was one of the leaders in piezo
technology. I should think the cost is more so related…at this
time…by the limited production ( or if you like…the production
cost) and limited manufacturers.

As Ron replied, the multi-hole injectors use a moveable disc (or a
ball) at the end of the injector, as opposed to a single pintle. I
have seen injectors from two hole up to 8 hole. Without looking it
up, I think a two spray stream injector, with air assist is used on
the 2000 XJ8 and some other Jaguar engines. The spray is emitted in
the shape of an upside down V ( / ), and pressurized air is used
to assist in the spray control shape.

Also as Ron indicated an injector that can atomize the fuel into
smaller droplets is a substantial improvement over the single
pintle style, regardless of the little head at the end of the
pintle shaft, such as used on the 70’s and 80’s era V12s and XJ6s.
Even the later X300s use a disc style injector that emits the same
inverted V shape. Some time ago, I did some calculations on the
relationship of the diameter of a sphere and a sphere’s total
surface area, and how that relationship changes as the diameter of
the sphere decreased. I have since discarded the info, but IIRC the
surface area decreased at a greater rate than did the diameter.
Maybe I’ll do it again for kicks.

The variations on spray pattern are very evident ( to me anyway )
since I have the ability to visually observe them on the bench
machine. One of these days I’ll post a few photos here. Anyhow, the
bottom line is the smaller the fuel droplet the more the droplet
will be completely burned.

The Delphi heated tip injector theory. Ethanol has a low Reid
Vapor pressure and high flash point vis a vis gasoline. The tip
heats the ethanol to a higher temp so it will ignite easier in cold
start situations. If you Google…’‘Delphi mutlec 3.5 heated tip
port fuel injector’’ you will find the Delphi page link.

SD Faircloth–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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21

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Sun 22 May 2011:

I’m pretty sure the MS stie has at the least some start points to
begin the tuning.

SD Faircloth–
The original message included these comments:

Guess I have to spend some time to find the dead time directly im
MS.
Just mounted them in the car and also filled here up with E85 so
now the tuning starts.

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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22

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sun 22 May 2011:

Ron,

Just for proof of our thinking…smaller droplets will burn
faster, or more completely…I went back and did the calcs.

The surface area of a sphere is 4 x PI x radius squared.
The volume of a sphere is (4/3) x PI x radius cubed.
I uses PI as = 3.1417.

If a sphere has radius 2 (inched, mm, nanometers, whatever)
then surface area = 50.26
volume = 33.51

If a sphere has a radius 1
then surface area = 12.56
volume = 4.18

Therefore…reducing the sphere radius by 50% (from 2 to 1)
surface area reduces by 75% 50.26 - 12.56 or 37.33 which is then
divided by 50.26 = 75 % reduction in surface area.

Reducing the sphere radius from 2 to 1 has the volume effect of…

radius of 2 sphere volume is 33.51
radius of 1 sphere volume is 4.18

A volume reduction of 87.5% ( 33.51 - 4.18 ) or 29.33 and then
divided by 33.51.

In summary…reducing the sphere radius by 50%, reduced the volume
by 87.5%

Seems pretty conclusive to me, but I have an open mind for other
opinions, or corrections in the math.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com–
The original message included these comments:

I probably said this somewhere,large droplets of fuel are
not good(take to long to vapoerize),so the smaller you can
make them the better for effincey.

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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23

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Mon 23 May 2011:

SD, im not gonna disagree with that math. LOL.

just thinking the difference between 43psi and 2200psi, the
size of the fuel droplet sphere, is staggering!

the key is getting enough fuel to vaporize before the
atomized droplets can ignite all at once,from heat and
rapid pressure rise.(detonate).
of course getting a homogenous air fuel mixture,induced by
chamber characteristics would help a lot!

but thinking about it,with DI it would not be so important,
it seems as tho they keep the fire in the middle of the
piston anyway, and piston perifery, where pressure and heat
would not be as concentrated ,i donno its starting to get
com[plicated.

I cant seem to get enough info on the GM DI system,
like, do they give one controlled injection event, or do
they do mulitple small shots,of varying volumes, dpending on
air density and chamber conditions, relating to ionization
of after combustion chamber qualities.

I suppose this is getting off topic, and in no way related
to the HYPNOTIC control of our Jaguar V12s.LOL
which in reality are so simple.–
The original message included these comments:

Just for proof of our thinking…smaller droplets will burn
faster, or more completely…I went back and did the calcs.
The surface area of a sphere is 4 x PI x radius squared.
The volume of a sphere is (4/3) x PI x radius cubed.
I uses PI as = 3.1417.
Seems pretty conclusive to me, but I have an open mind for other
opinions, or corrections in the math.
SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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24

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Mon 23 May 2011:

HEY! SD, just reread your report on the 2000 XJ8, it has a
two stream injection, and uses air assist, ques;both streams
or just one?
and where does the pressurized air come from??

also seems as tho some Toyota injectors where made that
way?
two streams!
any thoughts on it?

air assist(just when you think you seen it all) LOL

also I do remember reading,some very early injection
systems used air for pushing fuel into engine!!

and heating the injector tip, thats pretty far out stuff,
is that for the FLEXFUEL engines?
I hope all the computors are workin well!–
The original message included these comments:

up, I think a two spray stream injector, with air assist is used on
the 2000 XJ8 and some other Jaguar engines. The spray is emitted in
the shape of an upside down V ( / ), and pressurized air is used
to assist in the spray control shape.
The Delphi heated tip injector theory. Ethanol has a low Reid
Vapor pressure and high flash point vis a vis gasoline. The tip
heats the ethanol to a higher temp so it will ignite easier in cold
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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25

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Mon 23 May 2011:

Ron,

The injector is made by Denso. It’s a four hole disc style
injector. The injector is fitted with a pintle that has two holes
at the bottom that are geometrically angled to direct the spray
pattern into the / shape.

The pintle further has four holes on the outer side of the pintle
located at 90 degrees apart. These four holes are located between
what I will call the 4 hole nozzle plate and the two geometrically
angles holes at the bottom pintle end. These are the 4 holes where
the air is injected, the purpose of the air being to assist in fuel
atomization.

I’m not sure of the air source for the Jaguar engines, but you can
Google ‘‘air assisted injection’’ and find lots of info.

SD Faircloth–
The original message included these comments:

HEY! SD, just reread your report on the 2000 XJ8, it has a
two stream injection, and uses air assist, ques;both streams
or just one?
and where does the pressurized air come from??

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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26

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Tue 24 May 2011:

The other thing with DI is that you will need a quite large
injector since you have a much shorter time to get all the fuel
directly into the cylinder…and large injectors dont usually
performe that good with low rpm/load.

Looking on a diesel engine with common rail they dont use the high
pressure all the time, low rpm/load around 800-1200bar and at full
load up to 2400bar, dont know what will happend with petrol at
these pressures. Altering the pressure will of course alter the
fuel amount as well…
Know one thing for sure and that is water cuts steel at these high
pressures so usually not the fuel it self that causes problem,
water in the fuel and condence in the fueltank is not that easy to
get rid of…

//Tobmag–
tobmag
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27

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Tue 24 May 2011:

Tobmag,

A larger injector for DI ? Totally out of my area, but at those
operating fuel delivery pressures it definitely requires some
serious engineeering, and thousands of hours of testing to match
the components.

Re…water cutting steel at super high water pressure. I completely
agree with that. Even the mfgs of high water pressure washers
(2,000 psi) provide a warning when using.

There was a TV program that aired in the USA for several years.
The outfit/company that was featured in the program was called
Orange County Choppers in upper New York state. They did custom
chopper assembly for stock bikes, and custom work. Great program
to watch. They had a machine that cut steel using super high
pressure water, albeit I cannot recall who made the machinery.
Very high tech computerized machinery.

SD–
The original message included these comments:

The other thing with DI is that you will need a quite large
injector since you have a much shorter time to get all the fuel
directly into the cylinder…and large injectors dont usually
performe that good with low rpm/load.
Know one thing for sure and that is water cuts steel at these high
pressures so usually not the fuel it self that causes problem,
water in the fuel and condence in the fueltank is not that easy to
get rid of…

–
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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28

In reply to a message from SD Faircloth sent Tue 24 May 2011:

to cut steel plate,
1st came the OxyAcetylene torch.

2nd came the Electric Plasma cutters.

3rd the Water-jet cutter.

today most equipped shops have all three!

the DI injectors iv seen are what I refer as a Pencil
injector, injector body is up,and out of the cylinder head ,
with a long thin hollow shaft going down into the
chamber,valve located at the bottom, it dont stick out into
cham, uses hi-temp Nylon=teflon o-ring seals at bottom.–
The original message included these comments:

Tobmag,
A larger injector for DI ? Totally out of my area, but at those
operating fuel delivery pressures it definitely requires some
Re…water cutting steel at super high water pressure. I completely
agree with that. Even the mfgs of high water pressure washers
to watch. They had a machine that cut steel using super high
pressure water, albeit I cannot recall who made the machinery.
Very high tech computerized machinery.
SD

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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