[v12-engine] Con Rod Design

In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Sat 19 Apr 2008:

This is an interest discussion and there is some information
on the Carrillo web site that suggests these discussions go
on there. Having said that the consensus appears to be that
the H structure can provide a better strut and also deal
with the rotational forces better for a given weight of rod.

Or at least thats what I get from it.–
alex paterson
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In reply to a message from alex paterson sent Thu 24 Apr 2008:

Got a link or are you tlaknig about a Carillo web site? (I’m lazy
today).

I would guess it’s along the lines Kirby (?) said a while back -
where the most efficient (strength over mass) design would be a
hollow box, in the same way a torque tube/propshaft is more
efficient than a round bar. The H approximates more to the box with
stiffening mass near the edges, but still able to be machined from
a forging instead of fabricated. It can’t be extruded because it is
closed at each end by the bearings.

Pete–
66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
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PeterCrespin wrote:

in the same way a torque tube/propshaft is more efficient than a round
bar.

Y’know, I was thinking about this the other day. Why are the rear
axles solid? It would seem to be a better idea to make them hollow
tubes like driveshafts – in fact, any shop that makes driveshafts
should be able to fab up hollow versions that should weigh less and
be stronger. Could even have aluminum ones made.

Biggest problem would probably be reduced clearance for the exhaust
system.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 24 Apr 2008:

The rear axles are not just rotating members but very strong
suspension links needing to withstand large tension/compression
road shocks withou distorting or failing in case of abuse. Hence
they are forged with a yoke each end for the UJ - a nice easy one-
piece construction leaving, as you say, room for the exhaust. For
the first use on the E-type this was irrelevant though, as the
pipes passed under the IRS. The lower wishbones can be chunkier and
need to be stiff in several planes so they are bigger diameter
tubes with yokes welded on each end, although construction changed
early on and the ifrst ones maight have been forged.

That’s my take anyway. Not that it has a lot ot do with V12
engines :-)–
The original message included these comments:

Y’know, I was thinking about this the other day. Why are the rear
axles solid? It would seem to be a better idea to make them hollow
tubes like driveshafts – in fact, any shop that makes driveshafts
should be able to fab up hollow versions that should weigh less and
be stronger. Could even have aluminum ones made.
Biggest problem would probably be reduced clearance for the exhaust
system.


66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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PeterCrespin wrote:

The rear axles are not just rotating members but very strong
suspension links needing to withstand large tension/compression
road shocks withou distorting or failing in case of abuse.

All the more reason to make them tubular!

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 25 Apr 2008:

Fabrication versus forging I guess. And the decision may not have
been made on strength grounds but economy. Which is the quickest,
cheapest way to make a strong, compact and acceptably light
halfshaft: fabricate it from a minimum of two forgings and a piece
of cut tube, welded carefully together, or stamp it out in one
operation? Same goes for con rods.

The fabricated titanium bike conrods I’ve seen pictures of were two
machined full big and little end circles (rods were not split and
were used on built-up roller cranks) joined at the sides and
front/back by flat sheets of welded plate to end up looking a bit
like an IRS radius arm. I assume final bearing machining was done
after fabrication, to allow for any distortion and stress relief
after welding even if fabricated in a jig? Very light, very stiff,
very expensive.

The lower swing arms of the IRS are fabricated with tube but they
have to stand lateral forces as well as tensile/compressive and
rotational loads. The halfshafts don’t.–
The original message included these comments:

The rear axles are not just rotating members but very strong
suspension links needing to withstand large tension/compression
road shocks withou distorting or failing in case of abuse.
All the more reason to make them tubular!


66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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PeterCrespin wrote:

The fabricated titanium bike conrods I’ve seen pictures of were two
machined full big and little end circles (rods were not split and were
used on built-up roller cranks) joined at the sides and front/back by
flat sheets of welded plate to end up looking a bit like an IRS radius
arm.

Hollow box section? Yeah, that’s what I’m talkin’ about!

I assume final bearing machining was done after fabrication, to
allow for any distortion and stress relief after welding even if
fabricated in a jig?

Welding titanium is very tricky indeed. Plus you absolutely must
perform a stress relieving in an oven. Final machining of the
bearing openings afterward is a must, since not only will you get
some distortion but it’s the only way to make sure the length of the
conrod comes out just right!

Very light, very stiff, very expensive.

A bit risky, too. Even with careful X-ray inspection, you can never
be too sure the welds are flawless, and even the slightest flaw will
result in a fatigue failure down the line. Usually this will occur
at the point where the weld bead started and ended.

It’d almost be fun to work out a way to make similar rods using
Transient Liquid Phase (TLP) bonding instead. Far more reliable,
although I’m not sure that methods for using TLP bonding have been
developed for titanium. For making rods from more conventional
materials, though, it’d be the cat’s meow, and possibly a good
competitor for Carillo.

The lower swing arms of the IRS are fabricated with tube but they have
to stand lateral forces as well as tensile/compressive and rotational
loads. The halfshafts don’t.

Well, the halfshafts do have to handle torque loads. But yes, the
various loads on the lower swingarm definitely call for a massive
member.

These loads get even more massive when someone decides to do away
with the trailing arm and bolts the diff rigidly to the car, as is
common when this IRS is used in Cobras or whatnot. In these cases, a
couple of diagonal members are often welded into that swingarm to
strengthen it.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 25 Apr 2008:

How about ‘‘Oval Beam’’ or ‘‘Hollow Beam’’ conrods…
A quick trawl around the internet has led me to the conclusion that
a conrod has to be designed to resist compression, tension, torsion
and bending…oh…and fatigue.
The ‘‘I’’ and the ‘‘H’’ can both be designed to do this and opinion is
divided on which is better. So much so that I don’t think there is
a clear cut winner.
There are also Oval Beam and Hollow beam designs mentioned which
can also be designed to withstand the imposed load scenarios.

From an Engineering standpoint these latter rods should be the most
efficient design but would be more difficult to produce.
So the ‘‘I’’ and the ‘‘H’’ are predominant.
All the Engineering Basics are mentioned to a greater or lesser
degree. Shot peening for fatigue resistance, surface finish in
general and attention to shape/section changes to minimise stress
raisers. These provide measurable gains.
Materials from high tensile steels, Titanium, Aluminium (The tough
7 series aircraft grade…) and Aluminium based metal matrix
composites etc etc.
Each has it’s place depending on the design criteria.

But still I couldn’t find a DEFINITIVE advantage of the ‘‘H’’ over
the ‘‘I’’ shape.
That’s fine.
I can move on…except…I’d like to know what the Formula One
engine Design Engineers use in their sweet little beasties…–
The original message included these comments:

Hollow box section? Yeah, that’s what I’m talkin’ about!


MattFurness
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In reply to a message from MattFurness sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:

Since we’re talking about engine fundamentals Matt, I suspect
current F1 technology is not a million miles from this F1 item
posted previously. That rod in turn is clearly just a super-
developed version of existing H beams.

http://tinyurl.com/6l5fju

Pete–
66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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MattFurness wrote:

How about ‘‘Oval Beam’’ or ‘‘Hollow Beam’’ conrods…

The box section I was talking about is hollow. On a strict
strength/weight basis, a hollow oval would probably be best except
that there are limits to the external dimensions – it can only be so
wide or so broad. With the dimension limits, I think the hollow box
section becomes the optimum design, although possibly a hybrid
between a hollow box section and an H might be a contender – an H
with a hollow box for the center section, or a hollow box with webs
off the corners, whichever way you wanna look at it.

The ‘‘I’’ and the ‘‘H’’ can both be
designed to do this and opinion is divided on which is better.

It seems to me that another possibility might be a + section beam.
I seem to recall seeing such conrods somewhere, but don’t remember
where. The were probably not high performance items.

But still I couldn’t find a DEFINITIVE advantage of the ‘‘H’’ over the
‘‘I’’ shape. That’s fine. I can move on…except…I’d like to
know what the Formula One engine Design Engineers use in their sweet
little beasties…

We just looked at a link to a photo of a conrod from a Ferrari F1.
It was an H.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 28 Apr 2008:

I meant ‘‘currently using’’
The picture is from a 1993 engine. In F1 from 1993 to 2008 is a
very long time.
I wonder what they are using in today’s screaming little beasties.–
The original message included these comments:

We just looked at a link to a photo of a conrod from a Ferrari F1.
It was an H.


MattFurness
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In reply to a message from MattFurness sent Tue 29 Apr 2008:

Cranks are still cranks, rods are still rods, pistons are still
pistons. If anything, they will have become less exotic and more
refined, since F1 engine regulations have scaled back the use of
exotic materials and engine configurations to save money. The days
of five valve V12s and 20,000 rpm are history, as are the V10s,
Today it’s more like 750-800 bhp instead of 900-1000 from the
former three litre V12s, or the turbos years before them. They all
have to run the same engine management black box from the FIA to
prevent illicit traction control or variants thereof being used,
along with a rewv ceiling something like 19,000 IIRC. Something
like that anyhow.

So I suspect it’s a pretty safe bet that F1 conrods are still H
beams and engines are twice as wide in the bore as long in the
stroke.

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

I meant ‘‘currently using’’
The picture is from a 1993 engine. In F1 from 1993 to 2008 is a
very long time.


66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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F1 is still using H beam.

The last Race Engine Technology mag had an interesting analysis of the
conrod and piston issues.
They did note that H beam was weaker in buckling and did note that the major
stress was about 1/3rd the way above the big end (due to the COG of the rod
assembly). However they were more concerned about tension and compression
forces and the tendency for the little end to elongate … so they were
looking to control the deformation in the bearings to reduce friction issues
and to that end had useful ribbing detail.

The comparison engine (a fairly long stroke NASCAR V8 I think) also used H
beam and ran to almost identical stress limits. I don’t know about MotoGP
but I suspect they have surpassed F1 due to this ridiculous engine
development freeze.

And 19k rpm it is. They now can’t pass on the straights even assuming they
can get a slipstream because they are on the limiter anyway. On the bright
side, they are falling off the track with gay abandon. There was a comment
recently that they would be hitting 21k rpm if the freeze hadn’t happened.

Rgds
Mark-----Original Message-----


The original message included these comments:

I meant ‘‘currently using’’
The picture is from a 1993 engine. In F1 from 1993 to 2008 is a
very long time.

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In reply to a message from Mark Eaton sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:

Ah HUH. So that’s the critical factor…deflection in the bearing
housing.
Interesting. The H can be better configured to stiffen up that end
connection detail than the I.
It’ll be interesting to see what improvements are implemented in
the next few years on this aspect of engine design.
I’m totally opposed to these artificial barriers that stifle
innovation.
They would have been better advised to tolerate turbocharged
engines but successively reduce the engine size to keep the
competition relatively even. This would have encouraged further
development in this field and who knows where we would be now with
this technology.
As a Mechanical Ingenieur I find these Luddite actions distasteful.–
The original message included these comments:

assembly). However they were more concerned about tension and compression
forces and the tendency for the little end to elongate … so they were
looking to control the deformation in the bearings to reduce friction issues
and to that end had useful ribbing detail.


MattFurness
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MattFurness wrote:

I’m totally opposed to these artificial barriers
that stifle innovation.

There are those of us that feel automobile racing should be a
competition among builders. But there are others who feel it should
be a competition among drivers. Those who think it’s a driver
competition are always in favor of stifling any and all innovation;
in fact, a field of identical cars is the ideal, and that’s exactly
what many racing venues offer these days.

For a long while, F1 was the one place where competition among
carmakers reigned and innovation ran rampant. Unfortunately, it
appears those days are gone.

They would have been better advised to
tolerate turbocharged engines but successively reduce the engine size
to keep the competition relatively even.

The problem with that idea is that, once turbochargers are permitted,
there basically is no limit to the power available – you just turn
the boost up. Before the turbos were banned, they were getting over
1000 hp from 1.5 litre engines with 60+ psi of boost.

There is, of course, a fundamental problem with engine size limits.
To maximize power output for a given engine size, you either turbo it
with gobs of boost or you rev the bejeezus out of it. Since F1
banned turbos, they’re now at a reported bore/stroke ratio of nearly
five and are revving to 19K – and would happily go farther if not
for regulations limiting revs.

The far, far better way to go here would have been the way the ALMS
has gone: Air intake orifices. It doesn’t matter what you put
behind it, you can only get so much air through a particular size
hole. Establish a particular orifice size and let the builders use a
turbo, or a big V8, or whatever behind it.

Of course, the ALMS put some other restrictions on there, too, which
were well-intentioned but have somewhat mucked up the works. For one
thing, they established a minimum vehicle weight – which isn’t a bad
idea, it keeps teams from spending huge wads of money on carbon fiber
this and titanium that. But it also means there’s no downside to
using a heavy engine, so the Audi has gone to a huge diesel V12!
They’re kickin’ a** and takin’ names with an engine that apparently
doesn’t rev very high (the sound is amazing, like they’re shifting at
4000 rpm or something) but has 800+ ft-lb of torque. If not for the
weight minimum, they’d be losing badly to similar cars with gasoline
engines that weigh a couple hundred pounds less.

They also set up their P2 category to have smaller air intakes but
also less weight, with the result that they are about the same speed
as the P1 and it’s a toss-up which one is going to win overall in any
given race.

Just the same, the P1 and P2 classes in ALMS are my favorite racing
venue today. I don’t like the GT classes as well because they keep
messing those up, such as when they just decided to make the Aston
Martins carry a couple hundred pounds of extra weight so the
Corvettes could beat them.

This would have encouraged
further development in this field and who knows where we would be now
with this technology.

Besides the air intake orifice, another limitation I’d like to see
would be minimal driver input. Ideally, I think the driver should be
limited to having a gas pedal, a brake pedal, a steering wheel and a
lever that selects Forward, Reverse, or Park. Everything else that
needs doing should be automatically done by the car, including
shifting, weight jacking, you name it. F1 transmissions are
basically automatic already, but the driver has the capacity to
override it. With a requirement that racing transmissions be
automatic, think how much better automatic transmissions for street
cars would get. No longer would we have to put up with slushomatics,
we’d eventually get what’s essentially a manual transmission operated
by servos (which is basically what the F1 transmissions are).

Another thing I’d like to see would be movable airfoils. Jim Hall
introduced those in his Chaparral back in the 60’s – and he used an
A/T and operated the wing with his left foot – but they were soon
prohibited because nobody else had an A/T and hence their left feet
were busy. Again, with the minimum driver input requirement
mentioned above, I’d like to see movable airfoils that are controlled
automatically by the car. Apply the brakes and watch air brakes
deploy. Turn the steering wheel and watch airfoils move to help the
car turn.

And one more thing I’d like to see: ground clearance. They tried to
regulate ground clearance back in the day, but Lotus came out with
cars that would pass tech inspection and then “squat” at speed. Now
they’ve apparently given up. Here’s the fix: You know those little
steel domes they sometimes use to separate lanes of traffic? They
make a really big whump when you hit one with a tire. Well, I’d like
to see a few installed across the road on a race course. Paint lines
leading to them so you know where they are, but space them close
enough that you cannot go between them, you’ll have to choose one and
straddle it. If your car lacks ground clearance, you just ripped a
hole in the bottom of the car. Now, regarding the minimum driver
controls: If they want, they can design the car to sit 1/2" off the
ground – but it’s going to have to be able to automatically detect
the approaching dome and raise the car to clear it. Otherwise, the
car’s going to have to be high enough to clear the dome all the time.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:

So…the Luddite response was to ban turbo’s.
In my opinion, the correct approach is to allow turbo’s but reduce
the allowable engine displacement for promote further R&D in this
field.
My turbocharged Mitsubishi Evolution is a direct result of the leap
in development of turbocharging during this F1 period.Fantastic car.
Hey…if they can get 1000kW from a 500cc turbocharged engine the
whole world benefits from the downstream commercialisation of the
technology.
This is not an overstatement. New materials, new manufacturing
technologies and knowledge boundaries pushed back in a variety of
fields…
Dunno who makes these decisions but their last brain cell must have
jumped ship a while ago.–
The original message included these comments:

the boost up. Before the turbos were banned, they were getting over
1000 hp from 1.5 litre engines with 60+ psi of boost.


MattFurness
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 30 Apr 2008:

‘‘Besides the air intake orifice, another limitation I’d like to see
would be minimal driver input. Ideally, I think the driver should
be limited to having a gas pedal, a brake pedal, a steering wheel
and a lever that selects Forward, Reverse, or Park. Everything else
that needs doing should be automatically done by the car, including
shifting, weight jacking, you name it.’’

I may be wrong, but this has to be written by someone who has never
raced. To even think the above is to miss the entire point of
motorsport IMHO.

Besides, you can already have most of this with slot cars or oval
racing.

No disrespect, but any motorsport which does not involve changing
down through the box for slow corners, on-the-limit outbraking, no
turning right, no racing in the wet, no massive variety between
race tracks to be learned, no dips or crests etc, is less of a
sport than those varieties which ask a driver to master all the
above, or be trounced by other drivers who have. I have never raced
on ovals except sand racing and grass track (bikes) and I’m sure
there are specific skills involved I can only dream of having, but
you just can’t equate road or off-road circuit racing with ovals.

If it was just a contest of equipment why ask drivers to risk their
neck at all if there’s nothing in it for them? You could just put
22 engines on 22 dynos, press the start button and get a burger and
fries until they blow up one by one.–
66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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PeterCrespin wrote:

No disrespect, but any motorsport which does not involve changing down
through the box for slow corners, on-the-limit outbraking, no turning
right, no racing in the wet, no massive variety between race tracks to
be learned, no dips or crests etc, is less of a sport than those
varieties which ask a driver to master all the above, or be trounced
by other drivers who have.

Perhaps. But there is no shortage of racing venues that are intended
to be competitions among drivers. I’m talking about venues that are
intended to be competitions among carmakers, of which there is a dire
need.

In the good ol’ days, developments on the race track translated into
improvements in road cars – such as Jaguar developing disc brakes
for its LeMans entries and then putting them in their road cars.
Unfortunately, the era when racing developments meant anything at all
to road cars is long past. Nothing, absolutely nothing that goes
into the design of a modern F1 car has any application whatsoever to
road cars.

The unfortunate thing about this, IMHO, is that several things in
road cars are still in dire need of the development that competition
brings. The most obvious example is the automatic transmission. The
A/T has never seen any development through competition simply because
it has never been used in competition; racers always used manual
transmissions instead. That’s why we are saddled with the hopelessly
inefficient slushomatic. Even when competition introduced paddle
shifters – which are basically a manual transmission with actuators
doing the shifting – several road cars came out with paddle shifters
that were actually their bog standard A/T with a controller that
would force a shift when you flipped a paddle. Sad.

Create one venue in which the competitors are required to use an
automatic transmission, and just watch how fast automatic
transmissions develop.

If it was just a contest of equipment why ask drivers to risk their
neck at all if there’s nothing in it for them?

You could offer them a wad of cash? :slight_smile:

Seriously, I enjoy shifting gears as much as the next guy; all of my
present cars are stick, and I went through the effort of installing a
5-speed in my '83 XJ-S. But the fact of the matter is that 95% of
the drivers in the US today drive A/T’s, and a goodly number of those
wouldn’t know what to do with a stick if they were faced with one.
And continuing to support racing venues that ignore this simple fact
just leaves them farther and farther removed from their customer
base.

On a more theoretical basis, it’s the driver’s job to drive the car,
not to shift the gears. Shifting the gears should be done by the
car itself. It’s only because nobody’s ever come up with a way to do
it without launching the car into a spin in a corner that causes
racers to have to use sticks.

You could just put 22
engines on 22 dynos, press the start button and get a burger and fries
until they blow up one by one.

As much fun as that sounds, I’m not proposing that the car drive
itself, or even decide for itself how hard it’s gonna brake or how
fast it’s gonna enter a corner. I’m proposing that it shift its own
gears, which really isn’t driving, it’s doing the drivetrain’s job
for it.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 2 May 2008:

‘‘Nothing, absolutely nothing that goes into the design of a modern
F1 car has any application whatsoever to road cars.’’

Well, I guess we long since dropped con rods, but you would be
surrpised what stuff still comes from racing (cars and bikes)into
road vehicles, in terms of materials and concepts. Transmission
development is one such area. Twin clutch transmissions are
emerging thick and fast.

I went to an engineering society lecture at one of our premier
technical institutes last December. It was given by the Ricardo
people who designed the Bugatti Veyron transmission. A transmission
using similar principles is currently installed in a small demo
Mazda (IIRC) and Ricardo are offering the car to various OEM car
makers for evaluation. Ricardo’s opinion is that before too long
manual transmissions will be unavailable on mainstream cars since
autos are the only reliable way of making sure the engine and
emissions lawyas operate at peak efficiency. Human’s can’t be
trusted. And of the auto options, twin clutch electronically-
controlled versions are the most fuel-efficient option.

So you may end up getting your way Kirby, and I for one will be
sorry. Traction control, auto trans, launch control, ABS brakes
have no place on a race car IMHO. Even road cars end up being
driven at ridiculous speeds by people cocooned into a false sense
of security by all these driver aids. It is well known that people
speed up to negate (subconsciously or deliberately) most of the
safety advantage which the ABS and passive safety gizmos bring.

''As much fun as that sounds, I’m not proposing that the car drive
itself, or even decide for itself how hard it’s gonna brake or how
fast it’s gonna enter a corner.

Sorry, you’re behind the times. Many high end and performance cars
have been doing this for a few years. If you go into a corner too
hard, many modern cars will apply the brakes individually on each
wheel and juggle things to maximise grip and you cannot get them to
go ‘too fast’ no matter how hard you press the loud pedal. For now
it is still usually possible to switch these systems off by choice.
I doubt that feature will survive indefinitely.

‘‘I’m proposing that it shift its own gears, which really isn’t
driving, it’s doing the drivetrain’s job for it.’’

You might as well argue, as some certainly do over here, that it is
no business of the driver to choose their speed or even route.
Already lights and wipers are often automatic. Satnav technology
exists to automatically control vehicle speed on any road according
to perceived hazard level. They can also monitor and divert people
around jams etc. Paying for your driving by a gizmo logging every
mile you travel and the time of day you drive and fining you if you
go over the limit is only a few years away. What price driver
control then?

Pete–
66 2+2, 78 RAM D-type replica
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Fri 2 May 2008:

Peter,
If coded TV, etc, is easily broken by the Electronic nerds, how
long will it take them to disable the device you described. This
would make it a ‘‘stealth’’ car.

But if they do catch you, I suppose they could make it financially
unprofitable!! Then again for an occassional speed run out in the
country!!
Noel–
The original message included these comments:

You might as well argue, as some certainly do over here, that it is
no business of the driver to choose their speed or even route.
Already lights and wipers are often automatic. Satnav technology
exists to automatically control vehicle speed on any road according
to perceived hazard level. They can also monitor and divert people
around jams etc. Paying for your driving by a gizmo logging every
mile you travel and the time of day you drive and fining you if you
go over the limit is only a few years away. What price driver
control then?


'92 XJS Conv, '88 XJS, 68 XKE, 1914 &'15 Ford Model T’s
Edmond, OK, United States
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