[v12-engine] Distributorless ignition system for V12

The car started last night for the first time on its new
Distributorless ignition system!!

Not wishing to cross-post but having learnt from my previous
Megasquirt postings about the common interest on matters V12, I
thought I should just mention here that I have presented my
first ‘‘report’’ on a Distributorless ignition system for the V12 on
the XJS forum under a similar topic.

Might have to change my signature line now… :slight_smile:

Kind Regards
Philip–
'80 XJS 5.3PreHE, 5spman, MSD6A, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 6 Mar 2007:

Philip,

That is fantastic news. Do you find it runs smoother at idle? I
too have started my distributorless igntion for the first time this
week (77 Daimler Double six) and found that the car runs soo smooth
at idle you can sit a coin on edge in the Vee. Fuel and spark by a
LinkPlus G3 :o) Email me off forum and compare notes. Off to check
out your XJS post

PS have video of coin in vee

Cheers
John Reveley
77 Daimler Double Six
Christchurch
New Zealand–
The original message included these comments:

The car started last night for the first time on its new
Distributorless ignition system!!


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Tue 6 Mar 2007:

Surprisingly yes, but only when the engine is hot. It misfires a
bit when cold. This could be because the spark plug gaps are not
yet set as per EDIS requirements which I believe is something like
1.4mm!!

I also found it pics up revs noticeably quicker. I wish I could
explain this with good reason though. MSD6A makes serious spark,
dissy and all, why should EDIS be better? I found the same on the
Landy.–
The original message included these comments:

That is fantastic news. Do you find it runs smoother at idle? I


'80 XJS 5.3PreHE, 5spman, MSD6A, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 6 Mar 2007:

Philip,

Stands to reason, here are my thoughts. No Dwell limitations
caused by physical rotor movment. Plenty of time to charge the
discrete coils between firing the plugs. I have to say that the
MSD6A is a really good fix for the standard ignition.

Cheers John–
The original message included these comments:

I also found it pics up revs noticeably quicker. I wish I could
explain this with good reason though. MSD6A makes serious spark,
dissy and all, why should EDIS be better? I found the same on the
Landy.


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Philip,

There must be a delay in the bob weights flying out. How significant it is,
I am not sure.
Spring constants, acceleration of the weights, even overshoot. F=m x a etc.
Certainly there is stiction.

Whether the spring and weight time constant matches the acceleration rate of
the engine is an interesting question. You assume the designers considered
that. Then again, their primary constraint would be diameter and the masses
and spring constants that delivered the correct curve vs revs. Did they have
the luxury of tweaking the spring and mass combination to deliver a designed
rate of change? Does an engine with a lightened flywheel (which accelerates
quicker) benefit from a distributor that responds quicker (lighter springs
and bob weights)?

Rgds
Mark-----Original Message-----

Stands to reason, here are my thoughts. No Dwell limitations
caused by physical rotor movment.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Mark Eaton wrote:

There must be a delay in the bob weights flying out. How significant
it is, I am not sure.

Actually, I think it may be significant – and designed in. The
weights don’t move radially outward, but rather swing in an arc
around a pivot point. I think this means that the weights will
tend to impede advance while the distributor rotor itself is
accelerating. Once it stops accelerating and settles at a stable
rpm, the weights will swing freely to the point where the centrifugal
force balances against the return springs – presuming nothing is
sticky or seized.

I have a feeling this is a conservative design. Besides being
careful not to provide too much advance at constant speeds, it is
even more careful not to provide too much advance during snap accels.

Of course, the engine isn’t supposed to see any snap accels, it comes
bolted to a GM 400 transmission, snap isn’t in its vocabulary.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 7 Mar 2007:

The thing about the weights might apply to a std dissy but in my
car the weights were disabled, so the dissy was only providing a
fixed reference timing to Megasquirt who determined the actual
advance based on rpm and ‘‘vacuum’’.

Pics of installed system at:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1173295832

Please don’t look at the wiring - this will get cleaned up when all
is working as a project on its own.–
The original message included these comments:

around a pivot point. I think this means that the weights will
tend to impede advance while the distributor rotor itself is
accelerating. Once it stops accelerating and settles at a stable
rpm, the weights will swing freely to the point where the centrifugal
force balances against the return springs – presuming nothing is
sticky or seized.


'80 XJS 5.3PreHE, 5spman, MSD6A, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

jagwit wrote:

The thing about the weights might apply to a std dissy but in my car
the weights were disabled, so the dissy was only providing a fixed
reference timing to Megasquirt who determined the actual advance based
on rpm and ‘‘vacuum’’.

Understood. I was suggesting this might be the reason you claim your
engine revs quicker than the stock system. The distributorless
ignition system obviously won’t hinder advance during accels the way
the mechanical system might.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

jagwit wrote:

The thing about the weights might apply to a std dissy but in my car
the weights were disabled, so the dissy was only providing a fixed
reference timing to Megasquirt who determined the actual advance based
on rpm and ‘‘vacuum’’.

Understood. I was suggesting this might be the reason you claim your
engine revs quicker than the stock system. The distributorless
ignition system obviously won’t hinder advance during accels the way
the mechanical system might.

I haven’t converted my V-12 to distributorless, but I have converted
another car that direction (some 6 cylindar air cooled german car).

There are advantages and disadvantages to distributorless systems. My
system is pretty old, and I’m guessing that some of the disadvantages have
been cleared up. The advantages are that you get very consistant spark,
long duration spark, and very precise spark, and (of course) you virtually
never have to replace any ignition parts - the only parts that fail are
the sensors, and they are cheap (about $60) and relatively durable. The
disadvantages on my old system were the inflexibility of the map, and it
was hard to find plug wires for my application at any reasonable cost.
These systems require pretty heavy duty wires, as the spark is very
strong. As far as mapping - I have a 12 year old GM type system that has
adjustment for the initial advance (at 1000 RPM - before that is
determined by the sensor and trigger wheel, and should be 0 degrees), the
additional advance from 1000RPM to 3000RPM (which increases linearly from
the 1000RPM level to the set 3000 RPM level), additional advance from 3000
RPM to 8000 RPM (similar to the previous one, but could be retard or
advance, and not as much as the 1K - 3K setting), and the cut out where
one should no longer have advance. Most distributor curves are not quite
that rigid - they have a little curverature to them, and that change in
rates of advance may occur at a different point than 3000 rpm.

The bottom line on my german car was as follows, though. I could no
longer get distributor parts - they were NLS for over 10 years. A cap and
rotor were going for $300 in good used condition, and the wires were $300
a set and went bad frequently. So for $600 I could upgrade to
distributorless, and never have those costs again. Wires were still
expensive (at about $200) but once bought and installed, they have never
been trouble.

Phil Bates

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Pics of installed system at:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1173295832

I’m finding these discussions on distributorless systems for the V12 really
interesting. I notice that everyone seems to be using some sort of dual
coil - waste spark system. Has anyone tried the coil-on-plug set up or is
there some reason why that won’t work on the V12?

Mike Kennedy
1977 XJC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Pics of installed system at:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1173295832

I THINK (I’m not sure on this) that Jaguar did just that on their final
incarnation of the 6.0 liter V-12 used in the '96 XJ12 sedan. I know they
used it on some of the 6 cyl motors, I’m just not sure on the V-12.

Phil Bates

I’m finding these discussions on distributorless systems for the V12
really
interesting. I notice that everyone seems to be using some sort of dual
coil - waste spark system. Has anyone tried the coil-on-plug set up or is
there some reason why that won’t work on the V12?

Mike Kennedy
1977 XJC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting
services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On
Line Books and more !

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Mike Kennedy sent Thu 8 Mar 2007:

As long as those COP units can

  1. physically be secured (the tend to have a heavy mass - the coil -
    towards the top of the unit);
  2. driven electrically as required, I can see no reason why COP on
    the V12 can not be implemented.

Kind regards
Philip–
The original message included these comments:

coil - waste spark system. Has anyone tried the coil-on-plug set up or is
there some reason why that won’t work on the V12?


'80 XJS 5.3PreHE, 5spman, MSD6A, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

I have explored using Ford (Motorcraft) DG-508 COP units.
These are cheap and readily available. Quite small and light weight.

They have a 30 degree “boot” which works well on the V12. So far I have CAD
modelled it and worked out the fitment … but haven’t implemented anything
in the flesh.

BUT. I have throttle bodies (they may not fit with the normal inlet
manifold). All I require is a small spacer from one of the throttle body
bolts.

There are a lot of comments on the net about poor reliability of both the
boot and the coil plug. It appears that Ford did not specify Gold, Gold
Flash, Phosphor Bronze or in fact anything offering any kind of reliability.
The fix is to ‘goop’ the plug socket with gel and replace the boots with
aftermarket types when they fail. (Mean while the US is apparently full of
mis-firing V8 Crown Vic’s and Ford Explorers). It is also very difficult to
find the mating plug, which doesn’t seem to be anything standard. You can
get pigtails, but they are almost as expensive as the coil.

It does look like Jaguar used this coil on the S-Type V8, but I haven’t had
that confirmed. Nor have I heard whether they have had misfire problems
also.

Ideally, you would use a Beru/Bosch coil but you are generally talking big
bucks.

There are now also ‘pencil’ coils available which don’t have a ‘head’,
rather have the coil built around the tube. These don’t appear to need
fastening, just go on like a boot. I think a Porsche V8 has them and they
were surprisingly cheap, but I haven’t got any further with that.

Pro’s. Zero distributor. Zero Coil packs in the V. Zero HT leads snaked
around your injectors.
Potential for full sequential and individual cylinder advance/knock
control.
Con’s. Driving 12 of them. Only the really really expensive ECU’s will drive
twelve coils directly.

I see no reason you couldn’t parallel up two coils to drive 6 pairs (say),
but each coil will suck about 17Amps during charging and would normally
driven with a current limited output drive.

Cheers
Mark-----Original Message-----

As long as those COP units can

  1. physically be secured (the tend to have a heavy mass - the coil -
    towards the top of the unit);
  2. driven electrically as required, I can see no reason why COP on
    the V12 can not be implemented.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Mark Eaton sent Thu 8 Mar 2007:

Hi Mark

I went down this road two months ago, LS2 coil on cap with
intergrated ignighters also I checked out a mazda / ford pencil
style with intergated igniters, both units had mounting issues in
the rear of the vee, not so much the HT lead or boot but the plug
socket arrangement required to fire the things was large
(waterproof four pin connections) and required physical support. I
was going to fire them in pairs off six channels of ignition outs
on the ECU as a wasted spark setup. What I wound up using was two
three coil double ended packs from a GM / holden mounted in the Vee
in similar style to Philip. I did apply a lot of thought as to what
the best layout would be to keep the HT leads short and direct.–
The original message included these comments:

I have explored using Ford (Motorcraft) DG-508 COP units.
These are cheap and readily available. Quite small and light weight.
They have a 30 degree ‘‘boot’’ which works well on the V12. So far I have CAD
modelled it and worked out the fitment … but haven’t implemented anything
There are now also ‘pencil’ coils available which don’t have a ‘head’,
rather have the coil built around the tube. These don’t appear to need
fastening, just go on like a boot. I think a Porsche V8 has them and they


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Fri 9 Mar 2007:

Pictures of my new wasted spark setup (and new ECU) See above post

Cheers John

http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1173407587--
The original message included these comments:

on the ECU as a wasted spark setup. What I wound up using was two
three coil double ended packs from a GM / holden mounted in the Vee
in similar style to Philip. I did apply a lot of thought as to what
the best layout would be to keep the HT leads short and direct.


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 6 Mar 2007:

These are interesting observations, about idle behavior and on-
throttle behavior. I have always been intrigued with reports that
the Lucas cars feel different from the Marelli cars; it would be
interesting to get an opinion of how your car feels, with
EDIS/Megasquirt from someone who’s driven both a Lucas and a
Marelli car. Of course, the 5-speed (and probably your diff ratio,
too; I thought yours is early enough to be a 3.31, but I think the
euro versions of your model year may have been 3.07…) will
confound a reasonably direct comparison.

Mike–
The original message included these comments:

I also found it pics up revs noticeably quicker. I wish I could
explain this with good reason though. MSD6A makes serious spark,


Mike, 1990 5.3 XJS Convertible, ‘Caterwaul’
Lakewood, OH, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Fri 9 Mar 2007:

John:
But what drives all of this on your car? Are you still using
the stock fuel injection ECU? If not what? What controls the
ignition system advance and timing? Is this a megasquirt
setup or not?

More details please…–
The original message included these comments:

Pictures of my new wasted spark setup (and new ECU) See above post
Cheers John
http://www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1173407587

The original message included these comments:

on the ECU as a wasted spark setup. What I wound up using was two
three coil double ended packs from a GM / holden mounted in the Vee
in similar style to Philip. I did apply a lot of thought as to what
the best layout would be to keep the HT leads short and direct.

Roleyrev


Steven A. DuChene - XJ6VDP XJ6C XJ12C XK120SE 3.8S E-Types
Phoenix, AZ Atlanta GA, NE Oh, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from StevenD57 sent Sun 11 Mar 2007:

Sorry for the tardy reply.

I was forced to do somthing about a failed ECU (d-jetronic) & Map
sensor in my 77 Daimler double six. I made the choise to bring the
ECU into the 2000’s by fitting a LinkPlus G3 ECU (
www.linkecu.com ) with the help of NZEFI ( www.nzefi.com ) the ECU
has eight injector drives and eight iqniton drives. The
installation required 6 injector drives (two injectors per drive)
and six coil drives (wasted spark setup). The TPS switch was
replaced with a TPS sensor (similar to the later Jag ECU’s) a new
map sensor was supplied as part of the ECU and the ignition outputs
require the coils to be driven through an igniter (in my case off a
Nissan Skyline) and the coils which are GM in origin. I needed a
60 - 2 tooth wheel which was machined up along with the belt drives
to form a new front pully for the engine, also cast was the bracket
that holds the reluctor sensor to work with the toothed wheel. The
sensor is off a Subaru Imprezza. A Bosh AAV electric valve was
fitted in place of the water valve on the Jag, this is also
controlled by the ECU via a pulsewidth modulated aux output, the
air intake and water temperature sensors were retained off the
original ECU, the water sender has a standard Bosch calibration,
the air temperature sender required to have a custom look up table
created in the ECU. The fans have been changed to electric and
driven off relays via some more aux outs of the ECU - linked to the
water temperature sender in software. The flow of the standard
fuel pump measured fine, the fuel regualtors were replaced with one
3bar vacuume referanced regulator, the fuel rail changed for the
later HE style rail and smaller HE injectors fitted (the standard
P - Jetronic green injectors flowed 470cc per min, enough for about
1200 HP!). Two wide band O2 sensors fitted to the exhausts and
wired back to the ECU (for tuning purposes) The ECU software has a
very good graphic display mode for tuning. The car has spend quite
a few hours on the Dyno and many hours on the road being tuned to
perfection (well as good as it gets, always tweaking). I have no
issues in giving away the ECU file to those that want to follow in
my foot steps, as long as they support NZEFI by purchasing the ECU
off them. This means that you get the beneifts of a good tune and
many hours of dyno time for free. I am working on a fully
documented proceedure web site at the moment. The ECU can be used
with or without the distributor. Any further questions don’t
hesitate to email me or post on the forum.

Cheers John Reveley
77 Daimler Double Six
LinkPlus G3 ECU
Christchurch
New Zealand–
The original message included these comments:

But what drives all of this on your car? Are you still using
the stock fuel injection ECU? If not what? What controls the
ignition system advance and timing? Is this a megasquirt
setup or not?
More details please…


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Wed 14 Mar 2007:

Fabulous post John, but there’s something I’m struggling to work out

…where do you put the cigarette paper when you want to adjust the
the timing :-)–
The original message included these comments:

In reply to a message from StevenD57 sent Sun 11 Mar 2007:
Sorry for the tardy reply.
I was forced to do somthing about a failed ECU (d-jetronic) & Map
sensor in my 77 Daimler double six. I made the choise to bring the
ECU into the 2000’s by fitting a LinkPlus G3 ECU (
www.linkecu.com ) with the help of NZEFI ( www.nzefi.com ) the ECU
has eight injector drives and eight iqniton drives. The
installation required 6 injector drives (two injectors per drive)
and six coil drives (wasted spark setup). The TPS switch was
replaced with a TPS sensor (similar to the later Jag ECU’s) a new
map sensor was supplied as part of the ECU and the ignition outputs


Peter Crespin 66 2+2 E, 74 Daimler 4.2, 86 XJ-S 3.6 manual
Cambridge, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Wed 14 Mar 2007:

John:
I am confused. I went to the linkecu.com web site and looked
at the product listings there. The show a LinkPlus G2 and a
Link Engine Management G2 but not a LinkPlus G3. I see the
LEM G3 has a $600 difference in price compared to the
LinkPlus G2 unit based on the prices quoted on the nzefi.com
site. Which one did you do all of this with?–
The original message included these comments:

I was forced to do somthing about a failed ECU (d-jetronic) & Map
sensor in my 77 Daimler double six. I made the choise to bring the
ECU into the 2000’s by fitting a LinkPlus G3 ECU (
www.linkecu.com ) with the help of NZEFI ( www.nzefi.com ) the ECU
has eight injector drives and eight iqniton drives. The
Cheers John Reveley
77 Daimler Double Six
LinkPlus G3 ECU
Christchurch
New Zealand


Steven A. DuChene - XJ6VDP XJ6C XJ12C XK120SE 3.8S E-Types
Phoenix, AZ Atlanta GA, NE Oh, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !