[v12-engine] Distributorless ignition system for V12

In reply to a message from StevenD57 sent Thu 15 Mar 2007:

Hi StevenD57,

Im not supposed to say this…but… the LinkPlus G3 is due for
release very soon. I was lucky enough to be selected for a test
trial of the production run of the G3 units. Pricing is around the
$2000NZD mark which is around the $1380USD mark. If you want to
know more email nick@nzefi.com and he will fill you in on the exact
details.

Cheers John–
The original message included these comments:

at the product listings there. The show a LinkPlus G2 and a
Link Engine Management G2 but not a LinkPlus G3. I see the
LEM G3 has a $600 difference in price compared to the
LinkPlus G2 unit based on the prices quoted on the nzefi.com
site. Which one did you do all of this with?


Roleyrev
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In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Thu 15 Mar 2007:

Yes, I noticed that pricing on the nzefi and linkecu sites.
I think I will pass as I can get the megasquirt2 system
fully assembled ECU only (no harness or sensors) for $400 -
$450 or the simpler EDIS ignition only megajolt lite fully
assembled box for $144 - $161–
The original message included these comments:

Hi StevenD57,
Im not supposed to say this…but… the LinkPlus G3 is due for
release very soon. I was lucky enough to be selected for a test
trial of the production run of the G3 units. Pricing is around the
$2000NZD mark which is around the $1380USD mark. If you want to
know more email nick@nzefi.com and he will fill you in on the exact
details.
Cheers John


Steven A. DuChene - XJ6VDP XJ6C XJ12C XK120SE 3.8S E-Types
Phoenix, AZ Atlanta GA, NE Oh, United States
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In reply to a message from StevenD57 sent Fri 16 Mar 2007:

To be fair we need to be sure that we are making an accurate price
comparison:

For the MS-2/EDIS solution (which I don’t have working 100% yet :slight_smile:
we need:
MS-2 (I’ll use the assembled price): $400
Harness (assuming you don’t make your own): $65
2 x WBO&controllers (having two throttle bodies on the V12, I have
found using dual WBOs and the ‘‘dual fuel map’’ feature on MS-2
preferrable): 2 x $200;
The 2 EDIS-6 modules: $100
Total: $965

I excluded the coil packs, trigger wheel and sensor from the above
as this should be common to all systems.

Considering that the LinkPlus G3 can be assumed to be a
more ‘‘professional’’ system, with the solution proven 100% at this
time in the V12 AND that you can get a working map for no extra
charge (which you may have to tweak only slightly) from John
Reveley, then the $1400* Linkplus G3 seems worth considering ( in
my view anyway ) - for someone who wants to gets his car sorted
with minimal issues and effort.

  • Not sure if this price includes the WBOs? Even if it does not, I
    recon its worth a consideration, on the grounds that its a 100%
    sorted solution at this time.

However, for someone who intends retaining the existing OEM
fuelling ECU, the MS/Megajolt/EDIS solution could be a very
economical distributorless solution once we have a way of making it
work 100%.

John, is the Linkplus G3 happy to switch the Jag’s low impedance
injectors or do you have to fit current limit resistors?–
The original message included these comments:

I think I will pass as I can get the megasquirt2 system
fully assembled ECU only (no harness or sensors) for $400 -
$450 or the simpler EDIS ignition only megajolt lite fully
assembled box for $144 - $161


'80 XJS PreHE, 5spman, Dual EDIS, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Mon 19 Mar 2007:

Jagwit,

The LinkPlus G3 does require current limiting resistors in line
with the injectors. WBO2s are not included in the cost, I feel
however that the tune that I have is suffciently good if the same
parts are used that they probably would not be nessasary.
Interestingly there are some improvments to be had in the air
intakes. Both cold air (12% on map value) and intake restriction
(10 hp on dyno). There will be further development on this. I
think that Mister Jaguar was very intent on making the engine use
the least amount of fuel in 1977. Another thing that is very cool
is the ablity of the ECU to control idle speed (via the Bosch AAV
Ex BMW) in a closed loop fashion. This makes the idle respond to
anything that loads the motor eg drive, air con, high current
electical devices (electric engine fans). I would imagine for those
with a lot of accssories that change the engine idle air, a lot of
suplus plumbing and electical items would be able to be removed
making under the bonnet a simpler place.

John Reveley
77 Daimler Double Six
LinkPlus G3 ECU
Christchurch
New Zealand–
The original message included these comments:

  • Not sure if this price includes the WBOs? Even if it does not, I
    sorted solution at this time.
    John, is the Linkplus G3 happy to switch the Jag’s low impedance
    injectors or do you have to fit current limit resistors?


Roleyrev
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In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Tue 20 Mar 2007:

Hi John

When at first I took control of the fuel injection on my car I also
implemented current limit resistors and using the high impedance
approach (HiZ) but I found that doing so INCREASES the opening time
of the injectors, which in itself is not a big deal, but what I
also found was that doing so increased the DIFFERENCES between
opening times of the injectors which had a MUCH more negative
effect.

What I found was that it was impossible to get the car to idle
relatively lean and to run smooth on lean cruise because these
differences in opening times resulted in great differences in the
AFR ratios between the different cylinders under these two
conditions which cause rough running.

This is what motivated (forced) me to implement the true low
impedance approach (despite the great fear I had for frying the
injectors) where the LOW impedance injectors are switched directly
to ground for an initial period (which opens them in the quickest
possible time) and thereafter applying pulse width modulation is
implemented to keep them open. This is a feature that I am
personally very glad the Megasquirt supports (with hindsight of
course).

Keep in mind that my car is one of the very last Pre-HE cars which
I have concluded is a ‘‘halfbreed’’ between ‘‘true Pre-HE’’ and HE
versions. I’m not even sure if I have Pre-HE or HE injectors on my
car. The fuel rail certainly looks like HE but the heads are
certainly pre-HE.

Now that I’ve implemented low impedance switching (LoZ), the car
idles smooth at an AFR of 14 and I can lean it out to 17.5 on
lean overrun with the engine remaining smooth as we know it to be,
although I have chosen to not go leaner than 16.5 at very low
manifold pressures (40 - 15 kpa).

Megasquirt-2 supports both an Inlet Air Controller (IAC) which is a
stepper motor as well as a Pulse Width Modulated air controller
although I do believe one can not have true low impedance injection
switching AND PWM air control simultaneously (since the same PWM
circuit is used for both. The IAC and PWM control is temperature
based though, where I would have preferred it to be rpm based
(which is more complex to implement sw wise) as you confirm the
Linkplus does. My car still has its AAV which is working perfectly.

I have wired the AC pypass valve in parallel to the AC clutch which
results in a very good ‘‘constant’’ idle speed regardless whether the
AC compressor clutch is engaged or not.

Kind regards
Philip–
The original message included these comments:

The LinkPlus G3 does require current limiting resistors in line
with the injectors. WBO2s are not included in the cost, I feel
the least amount of fuel in 1977. Another thing that is very cool
is the ablity of the ECU to control idle speed (via the Bosch AAV
Ex BMW) in a closed loop fashion. This makes the idle respond to


'80 XJS PreHE, 5spman, Dual EDIS, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Tue 20 Mar 2007:

Philip,

It�s great to compare notes! When converting the car to the G3 one
of the considerations that I had was the inability of the G3 to
drive injectors directly under open and hold scenario. This would
have been a problem if I had used the 470cc injectors that the
original injection used. The reason the injectors were so large was
the fact that the old injection only fired once per cycle and not
twice as per later injection systems. The injectors that I used
are 185cc injectors of a donor HE motor (as well as the fuel
rail). Given that these injectors are way smaller the open times
are a lot longer and the value of time that the resistors add and
the difference in opening times is not enough to make a huge
difference at idle. In saying that the upper limit of the injectors
is also decreased due to the time required to open. The ECU also
has the ability to trim each of the injectors either via a single
fuel table as a percentage or as a percent on a RPM / MAP table for
each injector. The fuel pressure has been raised to 3bar via a
vacuum referenced Sard regulator instead for the 2 bar non
referenced regs of the old system. Have done some quick
calculations the upper limit on horsepower for the smaller
injectors is around the 450 mark, the upper limit for horsepower
for the larger injectors is about 1200 horsepower. The fuel pump
is good for around 500hp. In my case the smaller injectors made
more sense. As an aside I will over the next year or two make a
micro controller peak and hold board for the injectors, probably
using a microchip PIC16F877. The G3 also has the ability to
sequence in another set of injectors (with a secondary fuel map)
should the need for more fuel arise. Air steppers are also
controllable with the G3 and the extra outputs if not used turn
into GP io�s that can be used for other things. I chose the air
solenoid because of the cost and availability I think I paid around
the $60NZ for a used one. It fits in the approximate location of
the water controlled one. Your car being a manual one is free from
the transmission drive issues altering the engine speed at idle.

What type of O2 sensors have you used? Are they fast enough to
measure air/fuel on a cylinder by cylinder basis? Do they connect
to Megasquirt directly or do you use the application software /
handheld controller to monitor? Is there any facility in
Megasquirt to go closed loop?

I have two sensors to fit; the bungs are already in the pipes. The
bungs were fitted to dyno tune the car. The O2 readings on the
dyno were done with the Innovate LM-1 connected to the dyno. The
sensors that I have to fit are the Innovate LC-1. Both LM- 1 and
LC-1 are supplied with wide band Bosch LSU sensors. The LC-1
controllers connect to the G3 and provide a unified interface for
runtime data, fuel map reference and air/fuel ratio. If I get the
time the O2s will be fitted to the car this weekend, then we will
proceed to fine tune.
Cheers John–
Roleyrev
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In reply to a message from Roleyrev sent Wed 21 Mar 2007:

‘‘What type of O2 sensors have you used? Are they fast enough to
measure air/fuel on a cylinder by cylinder basis?’’
I’m also using Innovate LC-1 controller with the Bosch LSU4.2
sensors. According to the manual they are so fast that they can
measure individual pockets of cyl gas.

''Do they connect to Megasquirt directly or do you use the
application software / handheld controller to monitor? ‘’
In my implementation the two sensors connect directly to Megasquirt
using the second analog output which display on the megasquirt PC
interface (Megature) as AFRleft and AFR right. I only used the
Innovate sofware to be sure that the Megatune AFR values
corresponded with the Innovate values exactly.

‘‘Is there any facility in Megasquirt to go closed loop?’’
There are 3 in fact:

  1. EGO feedback: This is the more std sort of mechanism where
    fuelling correction is made by comparing the actual AFR with that
    which is desired in the AFR map.
  2. AUTOTUNE: is a facilty where you can program a 12 x 12 AFR map
    into MS. This map only tells MS what AFRs you WANT to have. MS
    can then use this AFR map to compare, using the above EGO feedback,
    the ACTUAL AFR being measured to change the values in the 12 x
    12 ‘‘VE map’’ (this is the ‘‘Autotune’’ feature in MS) which is being
    used to supply the fuel so that the actual AFRs approach that of
    the AFR map. This way the actual fuelling map is tuned in a very
    easy and quick way. However these changes are only made in ram and
    needs to be manually saved in MS’ eprom through the PC interface to
    ensure the new values are not lost by hitting the ‘‘burn to ECU’’
    button;
  3. Automatic mixture correction: Same as above except this happens
    all by itself in MS without any requirement for the PC interface to
    be active. Changed values are saved into eprom when certain
    programmable criteria are met by MS itself;

MS only has 2 injector outputs which mean that I must group the
injectors in two groups of 6. I’ve got the left bank on one output
and the right bank on the other.

Megasquirt now allows me to have TWO of these ‘‘VE maps’’ where each
map controls one bank of injectors. This allows me to ensure that
the AFRs on the left bank is similar to that on the right bank.
Especially at low rpms I have found the differences to be rather
great. Bit of a nuicance to program these two maps though.

No need to design those peak and hold circuits. Do a search on the
Ms web site and you’ll find the design quickly - can even buy them
ready made.–
'80 XJS PreHE, 5spman, Dual EDIS, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
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In reply to a message from jagwit sent Wed 21 Mar 2007:

For those interested in this subject, the system is now working
perfectly as reported on the XJ-S forum.

Kind regards
Philip–
'80 XJS PreHE, 5spman, Dual EDIS, Megasquirt-2 (spark&fuel)
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I was asked privately for an update on the above.

Well, all still working perfectly. The car is still a “get in and drive” car despite standing waiting for my attention for months on end.

It amazes me how well its starts after all that time (batt disconnected of course).

Other than XJS, I have two Jensen Interceptors, S3 E-type and '70 Chev C10 all begging for my attention. NOT, bragging, just explaining “months”.

1 Like

Hello Philip,

How long since you made one of your ‘boxes’ to go distributorless?

I was all set to order one about 6 years ago, I have the 2 x 6 cyl EDIS units, 2 x 6 cal coil packs & the 2 x VR Ford VR sensors - then my dad goes & drops dead in the pub one Friday teatime & it kinda through me off kilter for a good while!

Rgds.

Andy.

Andy, I presume you are referring to what I called the DESC module? I did send one in the last 12 months (or so…) to someone (and can still supply) but things have changed in the last 12 years…

Megasquirt-2 can now be built to have 6 ignition outputs (0-5V) for wasted spark, obviating the need for the two EDIS-6 modules and requiring only 1 VR sensor. You now only need the MS-2, one VR sensor and an ignition module with 6 inputs and outputs. Bosch has a 4-in/4out module, so two is needed, or build your own with six BP373 or equivalent.

MS-2 still is a winner in that it can comfortably elegantly control the 12 LOW IMPEDANCE injectors of the std V12 WITHOUT THE USE OF CURRENT LIMIT RESISTORS which - to my knowledge - is STILL the only aftermarket ECU out there that CAN do so. Current limit resistors are ONLY useful for race engines running low impedance injectors.

IMHO, the ONLY downside of using the MS-2 to control both fuelling and timing (configured with 6 ignition outputs) is that you can NOT ALSO have real time barometric fuelling compensation - which is extremely important if you intend driving in terrain that varies by more than 100m (300’) or so.

For ignition only, MS-2 is now an excellent 6-channel (12-cyl) wasted spark solution.

@Craig_Balzer… ATTENTION!!!