[v12-engine] Doing Norman Lutz' cooling mods

Sir Norman

I am putting this on a thread so that any others can see
your reply. Many thanks for emailing me the cooling mods
pics and explanation. I am afraid the peasants in south
Burgundy, not being very expert, have a couple of questions,
please.

  1. How do you fit the plugs and get them to stick in place?
    Are the holes/plugs threaded, or are they somehow glued in
    place?

  2. In your close-up pic of the front water manifold, I take
    it than one hole, the one on the right in the pic, has been
    drilled to size, and the other on the left in the pic has
    just had the 1/8th starter hole drilled?

Wonderfully interesting information about your engine work,
many thanks. I am buying a lottery ticket this week in order
to be able to send you the deposit on a 48 valver!

Greg–
UK spec 1986 XJS V12 HE
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In reply to a message from gregory wilkinson-riddle sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

Sir Norman,

I would also like to know what the thickness of these restricting discs are.

I also assume that the top picture of the front water rail housing is showing a STG 2 Modification, not the STG 1
Modification.–
Ptipon
Modesto/CA, 90 XJS-V12 conv, United States
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In reply to a message from gregory wilkinson-riddle sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

Greg the plugs are 3mm/1/8’’ thick and are a bash fit in the holes.
make them 0.003 to 0.005’’ larger than the cast hole. If the cast
hole has to much ovality then you may need to drill the hole.
Correct, the left hole is the 1/8 starter. As I stated I rebuild
them all with the 1/8 hole and drill them to size when the customer
specifies what he needs as I normally supply these on a change over
basis, specially the STG 2.
Greg they say V12’s run cooler if filled with some of that
Burgundy, I know the driver certainly runs better.–
The original message included these comments:

  1. How do you fit the plugs and get them to stick in place?
    Are the holes/plugs threaded, or are they somehow glued in
    just had the 1/8th starter hole drilled?
    to be able to send you the deposit on a 48 valver!


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from gregory wilkinson-riddle sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

Greg, I’ve already bought your Nigerian Lottery ticket you can
collect your winnings if you forward me $50K to cover the
Government taxes and my commission.
Yours faithfully
Norman–
The original message included these comments:

many thanks. I am buying a lottery ticket this week in order
to be able to send you the deposit on a 48 valver!


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Norman LUTZ sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

Norman
Your generosity is an example to others; I will fax you my
personal cheque forthwith.

As to burgundy in the XJS, the way things are going in
France right now, there will only be Burgundy available.
Mind you, it might be the cheaper alternative ere long …

Greg–
The original message included these comments:

Greg, I’ve already bought your Nigerian Lottery ticket you can
collect your winnings if you forward me $50K to cover the
Government taxes and my commission.


UK spec 1986 XJS V12 HE
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In reply to a message from gregory wilkinson-riddle sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

Gentlemen, unfortunately most people only think oftheir cooling
system when the vehicle boils. But is is a very important part of
the vehicles operation.
An engine that operates at more even and correct temp will operate
more efficiently. That equates to better fuel economy,. more power
or both.
That is the reason thermostats were invente, to maintain as
constant an engine temp as possible.
The first cars didn’t even have water pumps, they relied on a
system of thermo syphoning and were continually boiling on even a
cold day.
I have had customers report better engine response and fuel economy
which is what you would expect of a more efficient engine.
So in closing thgis mod is beneficial to all engines regardless of
climatic operating conditions.–
Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from Norman LUTZ sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

it seems as tho the race engine info here are just standard
engine mods for the last 60yrs,

cooling system mods,like increasing flow in the poor
areas,back of block and heads,bleed piping,restrictors in
strategic areas,slowing pump speeds,ETC.,

add and raise the expansion tank hite, like ford did in 1958
on big engines.

a couple of mods I do not see mentioned,

running a hi-temp coolant like Evans boiling point 375F
without pressuizing system,
big value is it dont cause localized HOT spots.

no corrosion at all,or cooling system build up, self lubeing
pumps etc.

and I think youall missin the boat without using THERMAL
BARRIER COATINGS,in certain areas.

lets face facts about our beloved V12s, there head cooling
is akin to a steam boiler, especially the long exhaust port
where heat transfer into coolant is high.

thermal coating port and chamber area WILL reduce a lot of
heat related probs. coated chamber reduces SEAT probs.

some yrs back I made steel tubes that I inserted into the
exhaust ports,all way in till the bowl area,blended
everything and coated the bowl, a small air clearence behind
the tube gave a BIG insulation to aluminum oversized port,

really works great on TURBO engines that have a lot of
residual heat in exh. flow.

and con rod mods using Chevy stuff goes back to the 50s or
before also, Hey! it worked on chevs why not any engine(i
recently did a 4cyl. ford) a longer rod with offset crank
and lighter pis pins.

boy did you just trigger the old brain, my very first crank
shaft was a 1948 mercury V8 crank with 1/8’’ offset journals,

had to look this tidbit up(anyone remember BRIAN FUERSTENAU
of Group 44 racing team),

I talked to him in 1989, and there Jag V12s where using
small journal chev rods, and a reduced main diameter by
using a machined steel insert , screwed to cap and block
web, and a smaller bearing from a pontiac mod, for the same
reason, large dia created lube probs from frictional speeds.

anyway my premise here is, modifying factory production
engines, seems to fall into just experiance any many yrs of
doing it.

and I have to give credit to just good old fashioned
AMERICAN HOTRODDING, and creative free thinking.–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Norman LUTZ sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

it seems as tho the race engine info here are just standard
engine mods for the last 60yrs,…

anyway my premise here is, modifying factory production
engines, seems to fall into just experiance any many yrs of
doing it.

And I, for one, am very grateful to Norman for passing on his “just
experience and many yrs of doing it” for the
benefit of those of us who wish to read and learn from his posts.

and I have to give credit to just good old fashioned
AMERICAN HOTRODDING, and creative free thinking.

:-X

TTFN
Bill
Surrey, UK
86 Daimler 4.2, 84 Sovereign 4.2 5spd man, 88 XJ-S 5.3 convertible 5spd man

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 21/10/2010 00:03, Ronbros wrote:

I’m going to have to agree with you.

After all of the years that I have been on this forum, I have yet to hear anyone give a solution to handling this plagued problem of dropped valve seats.

There seem to be many that tell you what they have done, but they don’t tell you how to do it. Instead they just give snippets and one liners.

Norman volunteered his information freely and fully.

As rudimentary as some may think it to be, I haven’t seen them offer it up.

Thanks, Norman

A.J.On Oct 20, 2010, at 8:58 PM, BMD wrote:

On 21/10/2010 00:03, Ronbros wrote:

In reply to a message from Norman LUTZ sent Tue 19 Oct 2010:

it seems as tho the race engine info here are just standard
engine mods for the last 60yrs,…

anyway my premise here is, modifying factory production
engines, seems to fall into just experiance any many yrs of
doing it.

And I, for one, am very grateful to Norman for passing on his “just experience and many yrs of doing it” for the
benefit of those of us who wish to read and learn from his posts.

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A.J.,

I would like to thank you for myself & the rest of us that didn’t have the common sense to stop and think to simply say “THANK YOU” to Mr. Lutz. As an old quote once stated, “There just is no substitute for experience.” I for one, being a bit older, am acutely aware of the value of experience and the cost of it’s acquisition.

Mr. Lutz, please forgive me for not stopping to realize that a simple “THANK YOU” is the very least we amateur gear heads owe you for sharing your hard gained experience and Jaguar wisdom.

While I’m about the business of saying thanks, I would also like to pause to say thanks to our long time online friend and mentor, Mr. Kirby Palm without whose guidance, my Lucas dizzy would STILL be in bits and pieces on the bench! THANKS Kirby!!

Earl Kiker
89 XJS Conv/Lucas
97 VDP
Earl Kiker

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Norman LUTZ wrote:

Greg the plugs are 3mm/1/8’’ thick and are a bash fit in the holes.
make them 0.003 to 0.005’’ larger than the cast hole. If the cast hole
has to much ovality then you may need to drill the hole. Correct, the
left hole is the 1/8 starter. As I stated I rebuild them all with the
1/8 hole and drill them to size when the customer specifies what he
needs as I normally supply these on a change over basis, specially the
STG 2.

OK, somehow I’ve missed out on being privvy to how this cooling
system mod works, but I’m gathering that it involves taking the
coolant manifolds off, pressing plugs into the openings (in either
the manifolds or the heads), drilling them to specified sizes, and
then reinstalling the coolant manifolds? Is that correct?

Because if that’s what’s up, I’m wondering why you don’t just take
the coolant manifolds off and bolt them right back on with two
gaskets and an orifice shim at each hole. The shim could be a piece
of stainless steel sheet metal with the same exterior shape as the
gasket and the specified diameter hole drilled in the center.
Reversible, alterable, and has zero chance of a plug coming loose and
wandering around somewhere. And the later gortex gaskets weren’t
very thick, so stacking two plus the shim wouldn’t add much stack
height.

I have often wondered why Jaguar closed off the two center ports and
then left the two front and two rear wide open. I wanted to presume
that they had done tests to determine this was the optimum layout,
but of course experience with other areas of the car would indicate
that would be a poor presumption.

Mr. Lutz said somewhere back there that the failures at the rear
cylinders clearly indicated that the problem was getting enough
coolant to the far end of the block – but it wasn’t the two rear
cylinders that dropped valve seats on my '83, and I don’t recall us
ever noticing such a pattern on all the dropped valve seats over the
years on this forum. They seemed almost random, although perhaps
more often on the B bank than the A bank.

We did hear once from someone who reported that his rear cylinder
liners weren’t getting any cooling at all due to crud in the water
jacket. It had completely filled in the area between the rearmost
liner and the rear of the block. I suppose that’s neither here nor
there, although perhaps an indication that improved flow back there
might help keep all that crud moving rather than settling out.

All in all, I still think the main cause of overheated Jaguars is
crud blocking the airflow through the radiator. If that space behind
the oil cooler is full of tobacco, it doesn’t matter what fiddling
you’ve done with the flow through the heads. I suspect what Mr. Lutz
is talking about is presuming you have already cleaned all the crap
out of the radiator fins, the airflow is fine, now how do you get the
car to remain cool under extreme conditions? I’m just worried that a
lot of owners here will leap to the conclusion that some plugs will
answer all their problems, even when they live in Massachusetts.

– Kirbert

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Earl Kiker wrote:

While I’m about the business of saying thanks, I would also like to
pause to say thanks to our long time online friend and mentor, Mr.
Kirby Palm without whose guidance, my Lucas dizzy would STILL be in
bits and pieces on the bench! THANKS Kirby!!

You’re quite welcome. And yes, I’m still here, although not as
active a participant in these discussions as I have been in the past.

– Kirbert

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1 Like

A.J. Simpson wrote:

After all of the years that I have been on this forum, I have
yet to hear anyone give a solution to handling this plagued
problem of dropped valve seats.

The solution is obvious - don’t over heat the engine for extended
periods of time. Fit a properly calibrated temperature gauge, and when
the temperatures exceeds 100C, stop immediately. That’ll ensure you
never drop any valve seats.

V12 Jaguar engine isn’t more susceptible by design to dropping valve
seats than any other engine, engine temperatures being the same. What it
is more susceptible to is overheating due to an appalling cooling system
design with very little margin for error.

Gordan

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

Kirby,
Small restrictor plates could be made up to achieve the same, but
it’s probably less work and less gaskets to turn a few bits on a
lathe than cut, file and drill some metal plates.

Whilst having a crudded up radiator does no good to anyone, if you
have poor flow path through the heads then that has to be a more
fundamental thing to address. Fixing the rad only is like shutting
the gate after the horse has bolted by simply giving it a little
further to run. It’s a downstream (average) temperature solution to
an upstream (specific) temperature problem.

Norman should be thanked for researching the what the source of the
problem could be.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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In reply to a message from Earl Kiker sent Wed 20 Oct 2010:

Well said Earl, as a newbie to the carworld any information which
helps us with these machines is most welcome and greatly
appreciated. This new information on the cooling system in addition
to all of the information in ‘‘the Book’’ is priceless. I know a
fellow here in Fresno who had two V12’s and just gave up and lumped
them. I pleaded with him to read this list and follow with
questions, etc. Too much trouble for him, so he ruined a great
machine IMHO. Norman has provided a very quick and simple
modification that can be implemented and provides further assurance
of continued success with our machines. I say BRAVO and thank you
again. Kirby’s assistance has kept me in the game as have so many
others on this list. This is not a place for ego, this is a place
for common cause and thought. Thanks again, Norman, Kirby, George
B., Jaguar Joe Bialy, Richard D., and on and on, you know who you
are. Best, JW–
The original message included these comments:

I would like to thank you for myself & the rest of us that didn’t have the common sense to stop and think to simply say ‘‘THANK YOU’’ to Mr. Lutz. As an old quote once stated, ‘‘There just is no substitute for experience.’’ I for one, being a bit older, am acutely aware of the value of experience and the cost of it’s acquisition.
While I’m about the business of saying thanks, I would also like to pause to say thanks to our long time online friend and mentor, Mr. Kirby Palm without whose guidance, my Lucas dizzy would STILL be in bits and pieces on the bench! THANKS Kirby!!
Earl Kiker


86XJ-S cpes, Ballet I, Act II, 288 Dana
Fresno, CA, United States
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Norman has tried to send me his cooling modifications but his email keeps
bouncing. Would some other list member mind trying to forward the email? If
so, please contact me off list and I’ll supply a few addresses to try.

Thanks,

Mike Kennedy
1977 XJC

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Many thanks Luis, Norman’s cooling mods came through just fine when you sent
them. Thank you, as well, Norman for putting the material together.

Mike Kennedy
1977 XJC-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v12-engine@jag-lovers.org
[mailto:owner-v12-engine@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kennedy
Sent: October-21-10 9:02 AM
To: ‘Dr.Quail’; v12-engine@jag-lovers.org
Subject: RE: [v12-engine] Doing Norman Lutz’ cooling mods

Norman has tried to send me his cooling modifications but his email keeps
bouncing. Would some other list member mind trying to forward the email? If
so, please contact me off list and I’ll supply a few addresses to try.

Thanks,

Mike Kennedy
1977 XJC

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A.J. Simpson wrote:

I have
yet to hear anyone give a solution to handling this plagued
problem of dropped valve seats.

The solution is obvious - don’t over heat the engine for extended periods of time.
I’m with you there.

Fit a properly calibrated temperature gauge,
Well, that would seem to mean fitting an aftermarket gauge with a digital readout. I guess you gotta do, what you gotta do.

and when the temperatures exceeds 100C, stop immediately.
Agreed, but I can’t tell 50C, or 100C from shinola by looking at “N”. I won’t say that I didn’t miss something, but I don’t recall hearing what “N” is. I think Kirby’s assessment of where the needle needs to be is a damn good gauge but being where it’s supposed to be and giving you a temp reading are two different things. “The Book” states the following:

“If your car has a properly-operating cooling system fitted with 190⁰F (88⁰C) thermostats, the needle will always be sitting on the N when the car is warmed up. Perhaps just a hair to the high side of the centerline of the scale, but always within the width of the letter itself, never above it.”

Norman points out that by doing this mod engine temps will become more evenly distributed, which is a good thing. Greg Wilkinson made an observation that the temp readings may increase on the instrument gauge. With Kirby’s help and guidance, we have come to base an acceptable temperature reading to be “N” and below. The question is, what will the needle read now?

That’ll ensure you never drop any valve seats.
Well, speaking in absolutes is pretty tough, but I’d agree as far as “Giving yourself the best possible chance of it not happening” On second thought, I kinda take the absolute part back. I believe Dick Maury once talked about pinning, or peening the seats, and having success in doing so. I have a set of heads on the bench that look to have been peened. I guess the head could explode and those seats ain’t going no where.

V12 Jaguar engine isn’t more susceptible by design to dropping valve seats than any other engine, engine temperatures being the same.
Gotcha. Perhaps, the interference fit of the seats could be tighter?

What it is more susceptible to is overheating due to an appalling cooling system design with very little margin for error.
Agreed.

A.J.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On Oct 21, 2010, at 4:08 AM, Gordan Bobic wrote:

In reply to a message from Mike Kennedy sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

I do appolgise for the off Forum nature of this post but I as
previously stated, was unable to download the pictures to the Album.
Any who fell they need to look attheir cooling problems do not
hesitate to join us at my email address.

Norman Lutz–
The original message included these comments:

Norman has tried to send me his cooling modifications but his email keeps
bouncing. Would some other list member mind trying to forward the email? If


Norman LUTZ
HEIDELBERG HEIGHTS, Australia
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In reply to a message from A.J. Simpson sent Thu 21 Oct 2010:

I’ve raced Jaguar’s since the 1970’s and never dropped a valve
seat… yet thousands of others have…
I would base the solution to the problems this way.
tighten up interfaced betweens casting and seat? .002%
modify water flow. .10%
replace stock rubber hoses .30%
clean out radiator to allow air flow .10%
Clean out engine to allow proper water flow .30%
Proper maintinace .10%
watching guages .098%
The later means when the temps climb, stop! Don’t keep going
untill you get someplace convienant.–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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