[v12-engine] Engine dimensions

I’m considering the Jaguar V12 engine for a kit car project.
Problem is the size of the engine.

Could anyone give me any details on that? Heighth x Width x Length
I also need those measurements of the gearbox.

I hope anyone can help me out,

Regards,

Joost van Ekris–
JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Could anyone give me any details on that? Heighth x Width x Length
I also need those measurements of the gearbox.

Arnoud posted once or twice for the carb engine:

according to the “Genesis” folder they are:
length: 110.8 cm/43.5"
width: 101.0cm/ 39.75"
height: 70.0 cm/ 27.5"
weight: 308.45 kg/ 680 lbs

As the gearbox, use something else. Don’t go to all that trouble to put
a three speed behind it.--------------------
Robert
73XJ12HE
87XJ-SC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Robert Warnicke sent Thu 29 Jan 2004:

Are there any other gearboxes, besides the 3 speed, available for
the V12 engine?–
The original message included these comments:

As the gearbox, use something else. Don’t go to all that trouble to put
a three speed behind it.


JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

I have a 4 speed Jaguar transmission behind mine.

Mike Eck
New Jersey, USA

'51 XK120 OTS, '62 3.8 MK2 MOD, '72 SIII E-Type 2+2

Are there any other gearboxes, besides the 3 speed, available for
the V12 engine?

As the gearbox, use something else. Don’t go to all that trouble to put
a three speed behind it.

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Robert Warnicke sent Thu 29 Jan 2004:

Are there any other gearboxes, besides the 3 speed, available for
the V12 engine?

Yes. Anything you want.

http://www.conversioncomp.co.nz/results.html?category=Jaguar&submit.x=24
&submit.y=28

http://www.johnscars.com/

http://www.vintagejag.com/Store/articles.htm

http://www.keislerauto.com/--------------------
Robert
73XJ12HE
87XJ-SC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Robert Warnicke sent Thu 29 Jan 2004:

Excellent information, just the kind of stuff I was looking for!
Thanks!–
JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from JvE sent Thu 29 Jan 2004:

What would be the average cost of one of those engines? Is there a
big difference between the carburetted and the EFI models?

Also, according to one of the price guides on this site, and XJS in
fair condition should be around 800 pounds. Is that a realistic
amount? Most XJS’s I’ve seen for sale (esp. here in Holland) are
much more expensive…–
JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

I saw on e-bay a guy in Houston was selling a rebuilt V-12’s for $3500
(with an your core exchange engine, of course). It was the 11.5 CR HE
motor, with no ancillaries (i.e. a longblock).

I think Holland’s prices and availability on Jags is much different than
other markets - in the US, an older XJS coupe is lucky to take $2000US,
and may go for 1/2 that regardless of condition. Of course, a convertible
brings in more money, and a the newer the car the more it brings - but I
doubt anyone in the US would get over $20,000US for one, and it would
probably be hard to get over $15,000US. Just doing a quick search on e-
bay right now, the highest price for one that has a bid is $15,000 and
it’s a 6 cyl 1995 convertible. There are a couple xjs’s listed higher,
but they have no bids.

Phil Bates

In reply to a message from JvE sent Thu 29 Jan 2004:

What would be the average cost of one of those engines? Is there a
big difference between the carburetted and the EFI models?

Also, according to one of the price guides on this site, and XJS in
fair condition should be around 800 pounds. Is that a realistic
amount? Most XJS’s I’ve seen for sale (esp. here in Holland) are
much more expensive…

JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting
services and
resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books
and more !

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

JvE sent

What would be the average cost of one of those engines? Is there a
big difference between the carburetted and the EFI models?

No big difference between EFI and Carb other than the obvious. There
are some different compression ratios around. The biggest difference
when you get to preHE and HE, and then the later 6.0 You really need to
read Kirby’s Book.

The question you will ultimately need to ask yourself is do you want to
go stock, if so then you probably want the HE with its advanced FI.

If you are going to be adventuresome, you want the preHE because you
will not be going stock, ie. dropping all the primitive stuff and
pumping up the power with turbos, increasing the valve size, or whatever
your funds permit.

Then there is always the nearly mythical AJ6 head conversion, which I
don’t suppose it matters what you start with.--------------------
Robert
73XJ12HE
87XJ-SC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Robert Warnicke sent Fri 30 Jan 2004:

:slight_smile:

I was referring to the cost of the engines themselves, not to the
technical differences, sorry if my post was unclear.

I have downloaded the book when you first suggested it, and I’ve
been reading through the engine chapters. very usefull indeed!

In the book it says that there have been no succesfull attempts as
to turbocharge the V12. Do you know of any links of people who have
attempted to do so after the book was published? (my funds wouldn’t
permit anything like it, but it makes interesting reading material
nonetheless)–
The original message included these comments:

The question you will ultimately need to ask yourself is do you want to
go stock, if so then you probably want the HE with its advanced FI.
If you are going to be adventuresome, you want the preHE because you
will not be going stock, ie. dropping all the primitive stuff and
pumping up the power with turbos, increasing the valve size, or whatever
your funds permit.


JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Well Bradley has twin _super_chargers, there are pics of it on the
jag-lovers site, and at various times he has posted the process he has
gone through and what he has done, try the archives. He did it on an
HE, which is contrary to conventional wisdom, BTW.

In his case I would have gone Pre-HE. The concept that I believe his engine
builder (which I used to follow, but have since changed from after reading
some dyno charts), is that the HE has the better combustion chamber/swirl,
which is better for forced induction. Will allow more boost, etc. This is
true! Problem: HE heads don’t flow very well. However, Bradley still managed
to make 488 rwhp (so figure 550-575 flywheel hp) from a 6.0L V12, in a VERY
streetable form, and I might add the car is damn fast (I rode in it).

Another list member, Ted, is just beginning his twin turbo odyssey. I
will be “watching” him closely. I have heard of others, but only rumor.

Oh so that’s YOU who’s been stalking me! Sheesh why don’t you just come up and
say hi? I’ll hand you a wrench! You can help!

Bradley must be (or perhaps more accurately, was) loaded, but Ted
doesn’t seem to be. Hanging a couple of T3s on a preHE shouldn’t be a
big deal. T3s are a few hundred bucks, nothing compared to the cost of
building an entire car, and isn’t that why you asked about dimensions in
the first place? The rest is just plumbing. Admittedly the fuelling
would not be stock and it could be a big ticket item, but it might be
accomplished by megasquirt or variant.

Last figure I heard on Bradley’s car was probably about twice what I have to
pay for college (for those who don’t know, that’s a whole lot of $$$). I am
not loaded, I’m a college student (also known as “broke” or “the opposite of
loaded”).

As for turbos, do the math and you can figure out what’s adequate turbo wise.
A lot of it depends on how much boost you’re going to run. I know what I’m
doing and have figured out a stock application turbo that I can use. Do the
math and you can figure out the same. It’s not nearly as simple as just
picking out two turbos and bolting them up, at least not if you want optimal
results. You would be surprised just how undersized most factory turbos are
for a V12, even in pairs, even on “high performance” cars. Fueling is also
not as simple as just a MegaSquirt. The factory fuel lines can’t flow enough
fuel, the factory fuel injectors (at least on an HE) can’t flow much more
fuel than a stock V12 with minor upgrades (i.e. where mine is currently), not
to mention the fact that trying to use the stock fuel rail for much more
horsepower is like trying to breathe through a straw while doing a heavy
cardiovascular workout.

As the saying goes, “Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go?” There
are ways around this to a certain extent (as I’m finding out), but make no
mistake, unless you have a whole lot of spare parts sitting in your garage
(that happen to be perfect), it’s going to cost some money to do this. I’ve
done enough calculations that I have a good idea of what I need to
successfully pull this off and at this point I’ve spec’d out every major part
I’m going to need. It’s a lot of parts, not to mention all the fabrication I
need to do, and other expenses I have along the way. You have to also assume
that you’re going to discover problems with your car along the way that
you’re then going to have to fix.

Oh, don’t forget the cooling system. Anyone who thinks their V12 runs warm
now, add twin-turbos! :slight_smile:

http://caffrey.dk/megasquirt/
* *MegaSquirt - Electronic Fuel Injection Computer by Bowling & Grippo * *
and spark (megajolt or something)

MegaSquirt, MegaSpark, MegaJolt, MegaJoltLight, MegaSquirtnSpark, MegaEDIS,
MegaSquirtnEDIS. There’s lots of them out there!

Hmmmmmmm I have spent way to much time collecting information I am not
likely to use… It almost sounds like I know what I am talking about.
What a great parrot I am. Sigh, sob, sniff…

Hey, collecting information is all that I’ve done up until now. Now I’m
beginning to use some of it. Doing something like this is a LOT of work. It
makes you appreciate how much work the people who make turbo/supercharger
kits for stock cars have to put into it to make it work, be reliable, and run
using otherwise stock equipment. Do I ever have respect for them.

Also, for those who are interested, this weekend I’m going to start some of
the groundwork for the project. And that’s not even going to be working on
the engine, that’s work I need to do on the car to make it prepared to accept
the engine, among other things. Maybe next weekend I can get started on some
of the fabrication… maybe. Don’t worry, I will take pictures along the way
and try to keep pretty detailed documentation of everything I do so if I
succeed it will be easy for others to follow in my footsteps (relatively
speaking), and if I fail then people will know where I went wrong.

-Ted
'82 Jaguar XJ-S – 5.3L V12

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Do you know of any links of people who have

attempted to do so after the book was published?

Well Bradley has twin _super_chargers, there are pics of it on the
jag-lovers site, and at various times he has posted the process he has
gone through and what he has done, try the archives. He did it on an
HE, which is contrary to conventional wisdom, BTW.

Another list member, Ted, is just beginning his twin turbo odyssey. I
will be “watching” him closely. I have heard of others, but only rumor.

(my funds wouldn’t
permit anything like it, but it makes interesting reading material
nonetheless)

Bradley must be (or perhaps more accurately, was) loaded, but Ted
doesn’t seem to be. Hanging a couple of T3s on a preHE shouldn’t be a
big deal. T3s are a few hundred bucks, nothing compared to the cost of
building an entire car, and isn’t that why you asked about dimensions in
the first place? The rest is just plumbing. Admittedly the fuelling
would not be stock and it could be a big ticket item, but it might be
accomplished by megasquirt or variant.

http://caffrey.dk/megasquirt/
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

and spark (megajolt or something)

Hmmmmmmm I have spent way to much time collecting information I am not
likely to use… It almost sounds like I know what I am talking about.
What a great parrot I am. Sigh, sob, sniff…--------------------
Robert
73XJ12HE
87XJ-SC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Do you know of any links of people who have

attempted to do so after the book was published?

Well Bradley has twin _super_chargers, there are pics of it
on the jag-lovers site, and at various times he has posted
the process he has gone through and what he has done, try the
archives. He did it on an HE, which is contrary to
conventional wisdom, BTW.

Bradley’s car is actually quite impressive. I am fortunate enough to
have seen it and have driven it. I might be the only person other than
his crew to drive the car alone.

Another list member, Ted, is just beginning his twin turbo
odyssey. I will be “watching” him closely. I have heard of
others, but only rumor.

Ted has planned his new engine quite carefully and I predict a
successful exercise.

Bradley must be loaded, but
Ted doesn’t seem to be.

Bradley is a hardworking man who deserves the fruit of his labors. Ted
is a hardworking college teen who deserves the fruit of his labors.

Hmmmmmmm I have spent way to much time collecting information I am not
likely to use…
It almost sounds like I know what I am talking about. What a great
parrot I am.
Sigh, sob, sniff…

Not at all. Don’t cut yourself short.

John

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

On 29/01/2004, Robert Warnicke told us:

Could anyone give me any details on that? Heighth x Width x Length
I also need those measurements of the gearbox.

Arnoud posted once or twice for the carb engine:

according to the “Genesis” folder they are:
length: 110.8 cm/43.5"
width: 101.0cm/ 39.75"
height: 70.0 cm/ 27.5"
weight: 308.45 kg/ 680 lbs

The length figure in the genesis folder includes the e-type alternator
which was mounted backwards in front of the engine. The XJ engines are
about 6" shorter. The e-type might also have been an inch taller due to
the different sump design.

regards,
Mike

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Hmmmmmmm I have spent way to much time collecting information I am not likely to use.... It almost sounds like I know what I am talking about. What a great parrot I am. Sigh, sob, sniff...

Awe Robert… passes over consolation cracker out of my own stash

Paul Kobres
85’ XJS
Columbia SC

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Paul Kobres sent Fri 30 Jan 2004:

Everybody, thanks so much for all the information! You guys are
great!

The Jag V12 seems like a really versatile, not to mention unique
engine. At least on paper, it beats the alternative I had in mind
(Rover V8) fair and square. The only thing holding me back are the
costs. The rover engine can be easily be found for about 200 UK
pounds, or $300 US, and spare parts are readily available.

The V12 cost quite a bit more, but it really is so much more
impressive.

I just might have to save up a bit then!

@Ted: Please keep us informed of your progress! Do you have a
website where you put your information, or is there a part of this
forum you post in often?–
JvE
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Everybody, thanks so much for all the information! You guys are
great!

Yep, this IS a great list!

The Jag V12 seems like a really versatile, not to mention unique
engine. At least on paper, it beats the alternative I had in mind
(Rover V8) fair and square. The only thing holding me back are the
costs. The rover engine can be easily be found for about 200 UK
pounds, or $300 US, and spare parts are readily available.

You would be surprised just how affordable V12s once you actually own them. In
stock form they’re still VERY potent (just ask the Camaro/Mustang drivers
who’ve encountered my car). The only downside is the some 700 lbs of weight.
Besides that, I would recommend going for it. Even if you can’t afford to
build up the engine now (hey I still can’t but I’m doing it anyway) it’s more
fun than any V8 out there. I have some friends who have very fast V6/I6/V8
cars, and even though their cars are faster than mine, they are in awe of the
fact that I have a V12… and paid less for it than they paid for their
cars!! There’s nothing like a 12.

The V12 cost quite a bit more, but it really is so much more
impressive.

Like I said, it’s not so bad when you get into it (at least not over here). A
lot of it is building up a good network of sources (like people on this list)
who will help you out.

I just might have to save up a bit then!

Good plan!

@Ted: Please keep us informed of your progress! Do you have a
website where you put your information, or is there a part of this
forum you post in often?

I post here pretty often and will make a point of posting with my progress as
it comes along. I will also try to document everything as well as I can with
pictures, etc. The goal is to have the car running and driving by the J-L
picnic (now I’ve publicly announced it… uh oh). Whether or not that will
happen I don’t know, but by late May/early June I should be able to say more
definitively if I will make that deadline. A lot of it depends on what parts
I can come up with.

Incidentally, anyone know of a place where I can get some cheap IHI/Borg
Warner RHF6/GM8 turbos? Came off of the later model (late '97+) GM/Chevy 6.5L
Turbo Diesels. I need two of them in good condition, new or used. You can
guess as to what I need them for. :slight_smile:

-Ted
'82 Jaguar XJ-S – 5.3L V12

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Ted DuPuis sent Fri 30 Jan 2004:

Ted, the Chevy turbo-diesel is commonly used in ambulances over
here. Maybe you could check with companies that overhaul
ambulances? Or maybe you can get your hands on 'm via state
auctions? Also check some junkyards. The diesel engine was offered
in a bunch of GM vans I believe, you might just get lucky there…

How do you plan on hooking up the turbos? Do you make your own
headers that accept them, or do you modify the existing headers?

I do not know in how far this site would be relevant to you, but it
is interesting, and good reading material anyway:
http://msvorinich.itgo.com/

That guy put a massive Hollset turbo from a truck on a rather small
Ford 4 cil. engine.–
The original message included these comments:

Incidentally, anyone know of a place where I can get some cheap IHI/Borg
Warner RHF6/GM8 turbos? Came off of the later model (late '97+) GM/Chevy 6.5L
Turbo Diesels. I need two of them in good condition, new or used. You can
guess as to what I need them for. :slight_smile:


Joost van Ekris
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Ted, the Chevy turbo-diesel is commonly used in ambulances over
here. Maybe you could check with companies that overhaul
ambulances? Or maybe you can get your hands on 'm via state
auctions? Also check some junkyards. The diesel engine was offered
in a bunch of GM vans I believe, you might just get lucky there…

Well, the state auctions are usually entire vehicles not just parts off of
them. Junkyards are an option, but they tend to charge an arm and a leg.
Also, the vans didn’t have the GM8 turbo, only the pick-ups/Suburbans, late
'97+ models. I don’t know what the vans used, but it was different. Sorry, I
probably should have clarified that. It’s easy to tell with these turbos if
it’s a GM8, because it says so on the little panel with a serial # and
everything. Specifically, I’m looking to spend <$250-300 on a used turbo.
Would, of course, pay more for a new/rebuilt one. Mileage is of minimal
importance to me, if it’s really in bad shape I can rebuild it myself. I’m
going to go junkyard hopping this weekend for one, but if anyone happens to
be going junkyard hopping I would appreciate it if you’d take a few minutes
to look around. For reference, when you spin these turbos they should spin
VERY freely and VERY easily, virtually no effort involved, and there should
be zero shaft play.

How do you plan on hooking up the turbos? Do you make your own
headers that accept them, or do you modify the existing headers?

I’m making an adapter to work with the existing factory manifolds, but not
like you may think. Pictures and more details will come after I do the work.

I do not know in how far this site would be relevant to you, but it
is interesting, and good reading material anyway:
http://msvorinich.itgo.com/
That guy put a massive Hollset turbo from a truck on a rather small
Ford 4 cil. engine.

Yep, a lot of people do that. My goal is to have something that will be
quick-spooling, moderate boost, very streetable, as I believe a Jaguar should
be. Ideally, you won’t be able to tell that the turbos are there unless you
look at the boost gauge or hear them whistle, you will just be able to tell
that when you hit the gas the thing has a very linear pull that pushes you
into your seat. A lot of the things that I’m doing should help keep that the
case, but ultimately we won’t know until I get it all done.

-Ted
'82 Jaguar XJ-S – 5.3L V12

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Joost van Ekris sent Fri 30 Jan 2004:

Oh, and what are you doing with the intake too? I take it that the
stock intake manifold doesn’t accept the tubing from the turbos? Or
do you plan on attaching the tubing to the air filter base?

Just an idea I had: maybe you could build a complete dual-circuit
turbo system? One turbo on each bank, complete with it’s own
intercooler, then both tubes go to the intake manifold where
they’ll join in a T piece. It might take up less space that way,
plus you could brag about having two intercoolers. If you can mount
two of 'm.

In the book I downloaded from jag-lovers.org, there was a
description of the cooling system. The jag radiator design seems
overly complex. Wouldn’t it be easier / more efficient to have two
(smaller) radiators, one for each bank? Again, there might be
problems with finding the space to mount both of 'm, but if the
space is available, wouldn’t it work better? (perhaps improving the
cooling of the engine, as I learned that the V12 runs quite hot)–
The original message included these comments:

How do you plan on hooking up the turbos? Do you make your own
headers that accept them, or do you modify the existing headers?


Joost van Ekris
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !