[v12-engine] Full Sequential Operation for 6.0L

I am running in phase-sequential operation from a
crank trigger and the distributor drive is presently
covered with a plate.

Does anyone know if this abandoned distributor drive
gear could be used to provide a connection for a cam
trigger to provide information for full sequential
operation?

Thanks, Tomxjs–
Tomxjs
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

that sounds like a question that may be answered by the EMS
manufacturer.

this electronic stuff keeps advancing so fast, hard to keep up
with it.
you gotta be on top of it everyday,
OR just experiment, and find out on your own!–
The original message included these comments:

I am running in phase-sequential operation from a
crank trigger and the distributor drive is presently
covered with a plate.
Does anyone know if this abandoned distributor drive
gear could be used to provide a connection for a cam
trigger to provide information for full sequential


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

To answer your own question, take a screwdriver and have a look
under that blanking plate. If the distributor drive gear is still
there on the very late 6l motots, you can convert to a cam sensor
by using an old distributor base and fabricating an appropriate
sensor mount.

See the pictures towards the bottom of the following page for
examples of how others have done this:-

You can also put the cam sensor on the end of the camshaft, or
trigger from one of the cam lobes, or as the NipponDenso engine
does, with a spigot on the A cam. The method you mention is the
only one which doesn’t involve altering the cam covers, but does
place the sensor wiring in the middle of the V, where there may be
least free space.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

What ECU are you using?

Br
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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In reply to a message from MarekH sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

Thanks Marek, I removed this distributor myself and
fabricated the plate so I know the drive gear is there.

I am dyno tuning an Electromotive Tec3r system on my
xjs on phase sequential operation and after all the
parameters are established I want to add a cam sensor
and tune on full sequential operation to determine if
any practical benefits for a road car can be realized.

The website link you have provided does answer my
installation questions and I thank you very much.

Tomxjs–
Tomxjs
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Tue 8 Mar 2011:

Dear Tom,
I’m putting my cam sensor onto the end of the B cam, to be
triggered from one of the four, suitably lengthened, sprocket
bolts. (Pic sent offline.) Subject to not having coil pack
ignition, I would have put it into the V as discussed.

Given how poor (relative to modern smaller cars) fuel economy is,
any benefit is worth investigating. Given the injector duty cycle,
I’d guess it’ll probably have vanished around 3000 rpm.

kind regards
Marek–
The original message included these comments:

The website link you have provided does answer my
installation questions and I thank you very much.


MarekH
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In reply to a message from MarekH sent Tue 8 Mar 2011:

Thanks for the pictures. I suppose that since the two
cams are joined by the timing chain that any variation
in indexing between them would remain the same no
matter where a single trigger may be installed in the
system.

I have 6 coils in the ‘‘V’’ but I may have have room to
extend a shaft, from the distributor drive gear, between
them to install a trigger wheel.

Thanks again for the alternative suggestions to trigger
directly off one of the cam shafts. Is there anyone else
currently running an Electromotive system on the V-12

Regards, Tomxjs–
Tomxjs
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I assume that you are planning on firing the injectors in sequence with the
ignition rather than in groups. Just an FYI, the XJR-S uses fully
sequential injector control using some kind of sensor on the distributor.
The system is made by Zytek.–
Stevo

93 Black XJR-S Coupe & Convertible

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I am running in phase-sequential operation from a
crank trigger and the distributor drive is presently
covered with a plate.

Does anyone know if this abandoned distributor drive
gear could be used to provide a connection for a cam
trigger to provide information for full sequential
operation?

Thanks, Tomxjs

I assume that you are planning on firing the injectors in sequence
with the ignition rather than in groups. Just an FYI, the XJR-S uses
fully sequential injector control using some kind of sensor on the
distributor. The system is made by ZytekOn Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Tomxjs tom-carpenter@comcast.net wrote:

Stevo

93 Black XJR-S Coupe & Convertible

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Thanks a lot Steve. Yes that is what I am interested in doing and I will look into the XJR-S distributor set up.

Regards, TomOn Mar 8, 2011, at 2:27 PM, Steve G wrote:

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Tomxjs <@Tomxjs> wrote:

I am running in phase-sequential operation from a
crank trigger and the distributor drive is presently
covered with a plate.

Does anyone know if this abandoned distributor drive
gear could be used to provide a connection for a cam
trigger to provide information for full sequential
operation?

Thanks, Tomxjs

I assume that you are planning on firing the injectors in sequence
with the ignition rather than in groups. Just an FYI, the XJR-S uses
fully sequential injector control using some kind of sensor on the
distributor. The system is made by Zytek

Stevo

93 Black XJR-S Coupe & Convertible

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In reply to a message from William T Carpenter sent Tue 8 Mar 2011:

Yea Tom, I want to see you buy some of the Zytek stuff, that
will be the day. When the stuff was made, it was SUPER
expensive.
I have a complete parts list for all those parts, but doubt
that any of it is still available today, as that dates back
to around 90-91.
Chadbourn Bolles–
The original message included these comments:

Thanks a lot Steve. Yes that is what I am interested in doing and I will look into the XJR-S distributor set up.


Dr. Chadbourn Bolles, JaguarXJ_S@Yahoo.com
Leesville, SC, United States
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In reply to a message from Dr. Chadbourn Bolles sent Tue 8 Mar 2011:

Chad don’t worry I am not buying it as have what I want.
Just curious as to how their cam trigger received it’s
signal.

Regards, Tom–
Tomxjs
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Tue 8 Mar 2011:

Hey Tom, I was going to add a cam pos sensor to my v12 also. I
thought I could add a crank trigger and use the distributor hole to
modify the dizzy and make it into a cam pos sensor. I was going to
buy a cam pos sensor used on the 6 cyl Jag engine and make it work
on my 5.3L v12.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120671694987&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT.
As long as the engine management system knows where #1 TDC is, it
shoould work.
Phil–
The original message included these comments:

Just curious as to how their cam trigger received it’s
signal.
Regards, Tom

Tomxjs


92XJS
Clarksville, TN, United States
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In reply to a message from 92XJS sent Wed 23 Mar 2011:

Phil thanks for your input and I too intend to use the
abandoned distributor connection to drive a cam trigger
for full sequential operation.

Another member has replied with pictures of his system
to reference the cams by extending a bolt that secures
the cam sprocket to the camshaft that makes a simple
and neat arrangement…

However, even though I already have six ignition coils
in the engine Vee, I can access the distributor hole
easier than removing a cam cover to get to the cam
sprocket’s bolts.

What fuel and/or ignition system are you using?

Regards, Tomxjs–
The original message included these comments:

Hey Tom, I was going to add a cam pos sensor to my v12 also. I
thought I could add a crank trigger and use the distributor hole to
modify the dizzy and make it into a cam pos sensor. I was going to
buy a cam pos sensor used on the 6 cyl Jag engine and make it work
on my 5.3L v12.


Tomxjs
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Thu 24 Mar 2011:

Hi Tom, my 92 XJS has the Morelli dizzy and a standard coil. I
wanted to add an aftermarket EMS from Wolf motorsports of
Australia. Here is a link to Ian Hissey’s web page where I first
saw an aftermarket Wolf EMS installed. HalTech (another EMS
provider) http://www.haltech.com/ says in there brochure that they
can run a v12 and do sequential fuel injection, but after talking
to the USA rep, he says they cannot do both on a v12 with one
computer, but suggested to buy two. (not in the budget-even though
thats what Jaguar has OEM; one for fuel, one for ignition). I
wanted a computer to do it all and I think it would be neat to hook
it up to a laptop and adjust the parameters on the go. (Most
aftermarket EMS are geared for a v8 and not v12.) From what I’ve
read, there isn’t much performance gained from sequential vs batch
and no way to measure the stociometric of each cylinder to adjust
individual injectors unless you had 12 lambda O2 sensors wired. So
I bought a 96 XJ12 that was wrecked and am putting the driveline in
as an upgrade with the computers from the Nipppon Denso system
having two sixpack coils. My ultimate goal now is to change over to
Coil on Plug to get rid of the high tension wires in the Vee and
dress up the top of the engine to show quality.(of course, the 313
HP 6L will be a nice gain and no dizzy to worry about :))–
The original message included these comments:

However, even though I already have six ignition coils
in the engine Vee, I can access the distributor hole
easier than removing a cam cover to get to the cam
sprocket’s bolts.
What fuel and/or ignition system are you using?
Regards, Tomxjs


92XJS
Clarksville, TN, United States
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In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Thu 24 Mar 2011:

Hi Tom, Ian’s web page dropped from the last reply. His web page
is:http://www.ichi-intl.com.au/Personal/XJ-SC%20Mods/004%20ICH%
20181%20Mods%20Ignition.htm
I understand the MegaSquirt3 can now do sequential injection for a
v12 with a cam reference. That was my alternate option instead of
Wolf or Haltech. I’ve seen a few custom v12s with TEC3 installed
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/tec3.html and it had a
supercharger with inverted custom intake and a central plenum
chamber all polished for show
http://www.britishv8.org/Other/MartinJansen.htm
Really classed up the old V12…got me thinking about doing the
same with the supercharger too. Still wish I had a windows based
EMS to do it all though. Let me know what your plans are and we can
compare notes.
Phil–
The original message included these comments:

What fuel and/or ignition system are you using?
Regards, Tomxjs


92XJS
Clarksville, TN, United States
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Full sequential operation is only relevant in light load operation. Primarily it helps emissions, secondarily it can slightly help fuel economy.

Under full load the injector open time becomes a much larger percentage of the total available injection time. Near redline at full throttle this can reach 90% or so. This means that the injector is open nearly all the time; sequencing which 10% of the time the injector is closed is of no benefit to power. Unless you are hypermiling or trying to lower emissions, I would not base your choice of EFI system on the abailty to do full sequential.

More useful in real life are things like idle control, fan control, knock sensor input, wide band O2 interface and distributorless ignition.On Mar 27, 2011, at 5:16 PM, 92XJS wrote:

In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Thu 24 Mar 2011:

Hi Tom, my 92 XJS has the Morelli dizzy and a standard coil. I
wanted to add an aftermarket EMS from Wolf motorsports of
Australia. Here is a link to Ian Hissey’s web page where I first
saw an aftermarket Wolf EMS installed. HalTech (another EMS
provider) http://www.haltech.com/ says in there brochure that they
can run a v12 and do sequential fuel injection, but after talking
to the USA rep, he says they cannot do both on a v12 with one
computer, but suggested to buy two. (not in the budget-even though
thats what Jaguar has OEM; one for fuel, one for ignition). I
wanted a computer to do it all and I think it would be neat to hook
it up to a laptop and adjust the parameters on the go. (Most
aftermarket EMS are geared for a v8 and not v12.) From what I’ve
read, there isn’t much performance gained from sequential vs batch
and no way to measure the stociometric of each cylinder to adjust
individual injectors unless you had 12 lambda O2 sensors wired. So
I bought a 96 XJ12 that was wrecked and am putting the driveline in
as an upgrade with the computers from the Nipppon Denso system
having two sixpack coils. My ultimate goal now is to change over to
Coil on Plug to get rid of the high tension wires in the Vee and
dress up the top of the engine to show quality.(of course, the 313
HP 6L will be a nice gain and no dizzy to worry about :))

The original message included these comments:

However, even though I already have six ignition coils
in the engine Vee, I can access the distributor hole
easier than removing a cam cover to get to the cam
sprocket’s bolts.
What fuel and/or ignition system are you using?
Regards, Tomxjs


92XJS
Clarksville, TN, United States
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In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Mon 28 Mar 2011:

Gary you are correct on actual benefits to be expected
from full sequential operation and small as they are my
currently installed Electromotive system can do it with
just the addition of a cam trigger. Otherwise my interest
would be substantially less.

I have already installed the other modifications that you
have suggested and along with exhaust modifications I
have experienced good results as proven on the dyno.

I still am researching various electric water pump
designs and applications.

Regards,
TomXJS–
The original message included these comments:

Full sequential operation is only relevant in light load operation. Primarily it helps emissions, secondarily it can slightly help fuel economy.
Under full load the injector open time becomes a much larger percentage of the total available injection time. Near redline at full throttle this can reach 90% or so. This means that the injector is open nearly all the time; sequencing which 10% of the time the injector is closed is of no benefit to power. Unless you are hypermiling or trying to lower emissions, I would not base your choice of EFI system on the abailty to do full sequential.
More useful in real life are things like idle control, fan control, knock sensor input, wide band O2 interface and distributorless ignition.
On Mar 27, 2011, at 5:16 PM, 92XJS wrote:

In reply to a message from Tomxjs sent Thu 24 Mar 2011:


Tomxjs
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In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Mon 28 Mar 2011:

‘‘Full sequential operation is only relevant in light load
operation. Primarily it helps emissions, secondarily it can
slightly help fuel economy.’’

There might be another benefit: SMOOTHNESS.

Again, this benefit is likely to be found mainly at light
throttle openings and lower rpms. I deduce this from the
difference in feel between my batch injected Rover 4.6 V8
Discovery 1 and the sequential injected Rover 4.6 V8 in my
Discovery 2.

This benefit is most likely due to sequential systems’
ability to fine tune the injector opening time and closing
time and flow rate on a per cylinder basis and is thus only
likely to be derived if indeed an engine’s injectors has
been tuned to this extent to deliver similar AFRs per cylinder.

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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Yes, smoothness can also be improved with sequential injection. If there are known large cylinder to cylinder variances in volumetric efficiency they can be compensated for in the factory calibration on a sequential system. Obviously it would be better to design out the cause of the variance rather than compensating, but sometimes that is not possible due to constraints on packaging, cost, or legacy engine designs.On Apr 1, 2011, at 3:35 AM, “jagwit” philip@gpltel.com wrote:

In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Mon 28 Mar 2011:

‘‘Full sequential operation is only relevant in light load
operation. Primarily it helps emissions, secondarily it can
slightly help fuel economy.’’

There might be another benefit: SMOOTHNESS.

Again, this benefit is likely to be found mainly at light
throttle openings and lower rpms. I deduce this from the
difference in feel between my batch injected Rover 4.6 V8
Discovery 1 and the sequential injected Rover 4.6 V8 in my
Discovery 2.

This benefit is most likely due to sequential systems’
ability to fine tune the injector opening time and closing
time and flow rate on a per cylinder basis and is thus only
likely to be derived if indeed an engine’s injectors has
been tuned to this extent to deliver similar AFRs per cylinder.

Best regards
Philip

My website: www.jaguardiy.net
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