[v12-engine] Gaskets

I am looking at purchasing all new gaskets for my 5.3HE that I have
sitting on a pallet. I want to have it perfect before it goes into
the car. I was told about a couple gasket sets from jagbits, when
I sent an E-Mail to them requesting more information all I got was
a generaic response, this makes me nervous. I want the best
gaskets, not the ok ones and definately not the cheap ones. My
goal is once this engine is in the car, not to have to touch it for
repairs only servicing. This is the info I got from jagbits.

Hi Harold,
JLM12229 is a OEM Jaguar head set and would have all the latest
style gaskets. JLM12229 includes all the gaskets above the head
gaskets. EH831 is a aftermarket set made by Payen and would have
the old style gaskets. EH831 would have all the gaskets below the
head gaskets for the lower engine. JLM11517 is the number for the
same set in OEM Jaguar.
Thanks,
Dan

I have seen discussion of GORETEX? gaskets and different head and
intake gaskets. Just wanting to know what is the best and how do I
ensure that is what I get when ordering over the internet or on the
phone. not a whole lot of Jaguar parts dealers in upper Minnesota,
none would be my guess so I can’t just drive down to buy parts.

Thanks, Harold–
'89 XJ-S US Spec 5.3HE (Lucas) Auto
MN, United States
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Hsmith wrote:

I have seen discussion of GORETEX? gaskets and different head and
intake gaskets. Just wanting to know what is the best…

You can read my book!

Short version: OEM head gaskets are metal-fiber-metal but some
(Payen?) aftermarket versions are fiber-metal-fiber. The metal-fiber-
metal are the ones to get, and they are very reliable in an
unmodified V12, no need to look for something better. Assemble dry.

Intake gaskets are available as a 12-piece set (several different
varieties) or a 2-piece set with a part number that starts with NNA
or something like that. The 2-piece set, made of a thick pink
fibrous stuff, is the way to go, although it’s recommended that you
cut it into several pieces before installation – especially on a pre-
H.E. where the 2-piece gaskets can make it difficult to change spark
plugs. Apply a gasket dressing during installation, and retorque all
the manifold nuts a coupla weeks later.

The good valley cover gasket is a rubbery thing that’s black on one
side and red on the other. Don’t accept anything made of paper.
This might also be true of a couple of other gaskets in this
engine.

The cam cover gaskets are available in paper or gortex-coated metal
foil. Don’t use paper. The gortex-coated metal foil gaskets are
very good but remarkably expensive, and should be used only with
aluminum half moon seals. OTOH, another perfectly workable plan is
to omit the gaskets altogether, seal the cam covers with Loctite 518
sealant, and use the OEM rubber half moon seals. Either way,
slightly longer bolts with flat washers and split-ring lock washers
are recommended.

Most of the other engine gaskets are available in a gortex-coated
metal foil version. These should be insisted upon. Paper is
unacceptable for any joint involving motor oil, since oil seeps right
through paper. Gortex gaskets should be assembled dry.

The tappet block installation onto the head doesn’t involve a gasket,
but it’s often a source of leakage – partly because the ROM
recommends Hylomar which is not an appropriate sealant for this
location. Use Loctite 518 in this joint, and make very sure your
bead – and it should be a bead, don’t just paint the entire part –
makes a circle around each bolt hole and that it’s located in places
that will meet faces on the mating part.

Some of the bolts holding the sump to the bottom of the engine need
to be installed with sealant applied to the threads. Otherwise
you’ll have oil seepage through the threads.

Anybody think of anything I’ve forgotten?

and how do I
ensure that is what I get when ordering over the internet or on the
phone.

Always a challenge. They all happily insist they are genuine Jaguar
parts. Might as well start by insisting upon no paper gaskets at all
and see how much argument you get. I don’t think there are any paper
gaskets in the modern Jaguar/Ford gasket set, although it appears
that the throttle body gaskets may have gone back to paper after
having been gortex at one time. Paper isn’t too bad for the throttle
bodies, since the only thing that might leak is air.

BTW, if you buy a rebuilt water pump, it’ll come with paper gaskets
built in. You’ll want to argue about that, because you can’t just
pop it open and change the gasket; it would require another rebuild.
You should insist upon it being built with gortex gaskets.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 13 Jan 2009:

Kirbert, I recently rebuilt my 4 speed synchromesh (6mos.ago) and
the gaskets I purchased for the bell housing,top cover,and tail
extension were all paper and there were no alternatives. Do you
know if there are better gaskets available? You are correct
regarding oil saturating and leaking through paper, as I am seeing
this already.

Matt
1973 V12–
Matt63
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Matt63 wrote:

Kirbert, I recently rebuilt my 4 speed synchromesh (6mos.ago) and the
gaskets I purchased for the bell housing,top cover,and tail extension
were all paper and there were no alternatives. Do you know if there
are better gaskets available?

I guess we’re talking about the 4-speed in the E-Type? I’d presume
that Jaguar/Ford didn’t upgrade those gaskets because the car was not
in production when Ford bought Jaguar.

You are correct regarding oil saturating
and leaking through paper, as I am seeing this already.

So you have restored your E-Type to like-new condition! :slight_smile:

I wonder if you can buy gortex gasket stock by the foot and cut out
your own gaskets?

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 14 Jan 2009:

Yea I’m talkin about the E-Type Kirbert, I’ll look in to the Gortex
stock for the future,…or maybe I’ll eliminate the gaskets
altogether and used Locktite 518 instead? I’m on a mission to have
a 100% leak free XKE. :wink:

Matt
1973 ‘‘E’’ V12–
The original message included these comments:

I guess we’re talking about the 4-speed in the E-Type? I’d presume
that Jaguar/Ford didn’t upgrade those gaskets because the car was not
in production when Ford bought Jaguar.
So you have restored your E-Type to like-new condition! :slight_smile:
I wonder if you can buy gortex gasket stock by the foot and cut out
your own gaskets?
– Kirbert


Matt63
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Matt63 wrote:

…or maybe I’ll eliminate the gaskets altogether
and used Locktite 518 instead?

If the mating surfaces are machined, that’d probably work. I’m not
sure about the stack dimensions, though; what you’re putting together
might be designed to have the thickness of a gasket in there, and
omitting the gasket may result in things not fitting together right.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Wed 14 Jan 2009:

I doubt it on that box. None of the gaskets on the gearbox are
especially complex or fragile and wouldn’t be too hard to make out
of stock sheet, but I am surprised that a gasket fitted with a half
decent sealant is leaking so fast. Sure, a paper gasket can lead to
a damp join eventually, but if you use sealant both sides it
permeates the thin paper (and these are about as thin as paper
gaskets get) and forms a seal of its own surely?–
The original message included these comments:

sure about the stack dimensions, though; what you’re putting together
might be designed to have the thickness of a gasket in there, and
omitting the gasket may result in things not fitting together right.


68 E-type OTS, 94 X300 Sovereign, 94 XJR 5-speed
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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PeterCrespin wrote:

…I am surprised that a gasket fitted with a half
decent sealant is leaking so fast. Sure, a paper gasket can lead to a
damp join eventually, but if you use sealant both sides it permeates
the thin paper (and these are about as thin as paper gaskets get) and
forms a seal of its own surely?

I guess one could hope, but sealants are typically a lot thicker than
motor oil.

I don’t think the use of paper gaskets has ever been expected to
result in a completely clean and dry engine or transmission exterior.
It merely slows the leakage to a seep, which up until a coupla
decades back was apparently considered acceptable. It’s no longer
considered acceptable – Australia has banned cars that leak oil from
its highways on the grounds that the oil on the pavement presents a
safety hazard – so pretty much all modern cars I’m familiar with use
positive means to seal joints such as neoprene gaskets or Loctite
products.

And yes, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if synthetic oil leaked
through paper gaskets faster than dino oil. The old dino oils often
varnished pretty horribly, and perhaps the varnish sealed the paper
gaskets. Synthetic oil not only won’t varnish, but after a while
it’ll clean all the existing varnish off the inside of the engine.
If the varnish is the only thing keeping it from leaking like a
sieve, you’ll probably wish you hadn’t started using synthetic.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Thu 15 Jan 2009:

Actually I should have been a bit more accurate, The rear extension
gasket and the bell housing gaskets are ‘‘Damp’’ and not dripping, I
did not use gasket sealant there, and yes I am using synthetic gear
oil. I was advised ‘‘Not’’ to use gasket sealant because it can alter
the end float at the countershaft. What are your opinions Peter
and Kirbert?

Matt
1973 E V12–
Matt63
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In reply to a message from Matt63 sent Thu 15 Jan 2009:

The issue of dimensional change would surprise me, unless it was a
case of crassly slapping on large beads of silicone and letting
them semi-vulcanise before bolting the casing together. The OEM
gaskets are pretty thin brown paper and I haven’t seen anyone
producing anything thicker. A normal light smear with a gasket
dressing should not alter things dimensionally to any measurable
degree. Apart from which, those gearboxes are not exactly critical
in terms of assembly to the last half thou of float. They go on for
years in a fairly sloppy state.

In other applications there is a lot more to getting an oil-tight
seal than just putting old parts back together with a gasket.
Sometimes the first thread can partially pull out, or the casing
lid can distort, or the wrong fasteners or dirty blind holes can
cause the fastener to tighten without proper clamping. In the case
of the Jag gearbox however, the holes are mostly drilled through
rather than blind and the parts are pretty solid rather than
distortion-prone. A dab of sealant around key bolts can help
prevent seepage along the fasteners, which would be more likely
with synthetic. I’d try the accessible fasteners for tightness
after a few months though of course that can’t apply to the bell
housing bolts, which is why they are lock-tabbed.–
The original message included these comments:

oil. I was advised ‘‘Not’’ to use gasket sealant because it can alter
the end float at the countershaft. What are your opinions Peter
and Kirbert?


68 E-type OTS, 94 X300 Sovereign, 94 XJR 5-speed
Cambridge, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Thu 15 Jan 2009:

Thanks Peter…

Matt
1973 E V12–
Matt63
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Matt63 wrote:

Actually I should have been a bit more accurate, The rear extension
gasket and the bell housing gaskets are ‘‘Damp’’ and not dripping

Yeah, that’s what you get with paper gaskets. Just seepage, no
outright leaks.

I
did not use gasket sealant there, and yes I am using synthetic gear
oil. I was advised ‘‘Not’’ to use gasket sealant because it can alter
the end float at the countershaft.

Ooooh, that’s exactly what I was concerned about, that the assembly
may be designed for a particular gasket thickness and any more or
less screws something up. Incorrect end float would most certainly
screw something up. If you did find some Gortex gasket stock that
you could use to make a replacement gasket, you’d need to make very
sure that the gasket stock compressed to very close to the same
thickness when the bolts are tightened down. Or you’d have to find
some other way to address the end float situation, shims or
something.

– Kirbert

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PeterCrespin wrote:

The OEM gaskets are
pretty thin brown paper and I haven’t seen anyone producing anything
thicker.

I believe that’s SOP with gearboxes because thick paper could
conceivably crush unevenly when the bolts aren’t tightened down in
perfect sequence, and this might cause misalignments – which would
be bad.

A normal light smear with a gasket dressing should not alter
things dimensionally to any measurable degree.

With a gasket dressing, yes, as opposed to a sealant. Hylomar
wouldn’t hurt, it’ll just squeeze out as required as you tighten the
bolts down. Most sealants would, too, but there are a couple that
are so thick and/or dry so fast that perhaps they might cause a
problem.

Apart from which, those
gearboxes are not exactly critical in terms of assembly to the last
half thou of float. They go on for years in a fairly sloppy state.

If it’s an issue at all, I would feel better about replacing the
paper gasket with a gortex gasket that was close to the same
thickness than with just leaving the gasket out and sealing the joint
with Loctite alone.

In other applications there is a lot more to getting an oil-tight seal
than just putting old parts back together with a gasket. Sometimes the
first thread can partially pull out…

Oooooh, I hate it when that happens! Use a conical grinding stone to
chamfer those holes – just in case.

…or the casing lid can distort…

I have seen this happen so badly that you could set the cover face
down on a flat surface and slide a metal ruler under the edge between
the corners.

or
the wrong fasteners or dirty blind holes can cause the fastener to
tighten without proper clamping.

If I ever have any doubt about such things, I usually try to tighten
the fastener with the washers omitted or something like that. If it
looks like it might be hitting bottom or otherwise stopping when it
shouldn’t, I’ll fix it before I assemble it final.

In the case of the Jag gearbox
however, the holes are mostly drilled through rather than blind and
the parts are pretty solid rather than distortion-prone. A dab of
sealant around key bolts can help prevent seepage along the fasteners…

Ah, the same problem as with the sump bolts on the V12! Yes, a bit
of sealant – as opposed to threadlocker – on the bolt threads can
do wonders. Alternatively, you might be able to apply sealant under
the bolt heads before installation, if the gasket seals all around
the bolt hole. If there are washers, you’d need to apply sealant on
both sides of each washer – and obviously things like split ring
lockwashers are out.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 15 Jan 2009:

Thanks Kirbert, appreciate the info…

Matt
1973 E V12–
Matt63
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