[v12-engine] I need emotional support

V12-Engine
1

After renovating the fuel tank and getting the V12 back on
the road, I’ve been driving the car, and getting increasing
levels of fluid leaking onto the garage floor. I finally
got it on the lift, and had a chance to survey the
problem(s):

  1. Steering pinion leak.
  2. Steering gater leak.
  3. Rear main seal leak.
  4. Clutch slave leak.
  5. Brake reservoir leak.
  6. Speedo drive gear leak.
  7. Differential leak.

Now, I know that a Jaguar would not be a Jaguar without #3,
but really? The ratio of work to road time has got to go
down with this car or I’'m going to pull out the little hair
I have left.–
Bill Gutierrez, '61 OTS '73 OTS
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2

Wrong list, obviously. Little to do with the V12 engine.

After renovating the fuel tank and getting the V12 back on
the road, I’ve been driving the car, and getting increasing
levels of fluid leaking onto the garage floor. I finally
got it on the lift, and had a chance to survey the
problem(s):

  1. Steering pinion leak.

On the XJ-S/12, that tower seal is available separately. It ain’t cheap,
though. Apparently it called for a special design for some reason. It’s also no
fun to replace.

  1. Steering gater leak.

There is no such thing as a steering gaitor leak, because they’re not intended
to seal. They actually have drain holes. They are only intended to keep dust
out. If there is fluid coming out of there, you have a rack leak. And if the rack
and the tower are both leaking, time to yank it outta there and have it rebuilt.

  1. Rear main seal leak.

That problem usually turns out to be a PCV problem. If the PCV system is
working fine, there’s little or no leakage from that seal, but if the crankcase
pressure goes up a hair, it starts leaking profusely. The condition of the seal
itself is apparently rarely if ever a factor. The old rope seal just doesn’t go
bad, apparently.

It is possible that what’s wrong with the PCV system is that the engine is so
worn and has so much blowby that the PCV system is overwhelmed. IIRC,
we’ve had at least one owner install a second PCV system, and he reported
that that actually worked, stopped his rear main leaks.

  1. Clutch slave leak.
  2. Brake reservoir leak.

The reservoir itself? Cracked? Or is the hoses connected to it that are
leaking? Nobody used regular gas hose to connect it up, did they?

  1. Speedo drive gear leak.

I dunno if it’s the same as on the GM400, but that little contraption had its
own little seal – and when I mentioned the issue to a transmission shop, they
showed me an aftermarket seal that was MUCH better than the OEM part!
The problem sometimes is the gear itself, though, with the shaft boogered up
enough that the seal won’t seal against it.

  1. Differential leak.

Pinion or output shafts? Leaks at the output shafts will lubricate your inboard
rear brakes, which is why I keep recommending an upgrade to vented rotors.

The ratio of work to road time has got to go
down with this car or I’'m going to pull out the little hair
I have left.

As I learned long ago, simply rebuilding stuff according to the ROM
procedures and using OEM sealants and gaskets will result in a Jaguar that
leaks just as much as always. These cars famously leaked on the showroom
floor. If you want it to STOP leaking, you have to take a more proactive
approach, thinking about what really seals and what doesn’t and how to
assemble components so they WON’T leak, period, not now or later.

Face it, your car is old and incontinent. But with patience, you can get the
bottom dry and the garage floor clean.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 6 Oct 2016 at 20:04, Lundabo wrote:

3

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 6 Oct 2016:

What that supposed to be a pep talk? LOL…I know its a 43
year old car, so none of this should be unexpected, but it is
a bit daunting. With house projects, my 87 Carrera, the 73
V12 and the 61, I need 4 more of myself or a rich uncle to
keep up. ;(

I’'m interested in the PCV valve issue. I’ll take a look at
it… .

But, you’re right. Probably best in the pub because this
experience deserves a few shots and some shared anguish. …–
The original message included these comments:

Wrong list, obviously. Little to do with the V12 engine.
On 6 Oct 2016 at 20:04, Lundabo wrote:

After renovating the fuel tank and getting the V12 back on
the road, I’ve been driving the car, and getting increasing
levels of fluid leaking onto the garage floor. I finally
got it on the lift, and had a chance to survey the
problem(s):

  1. Steering pinion leak.
    On the XJ-S/12, that tower seal is available separately. It ain’t cheap,

–
Bill Gutierrez, '61 OTS '73 OTS
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4

Hi Bill,

Pep talk: Guys need projects. Once the list from “the wife” is complete,
you’re on your own and in desperate need of your own list.

Ta Da. You have produced your own list. Feelings of desperation diminish and
a steely glint settles into your eye … ;o)

Perhaps the pareto principle should be applied. List leaks in order of
severity. 80% of the leaking will probably be from just one.
Fix that one first. The bulk of your problems have now disappeared with the
minimum applied effort.

Plan B. Get a drip tray …

Cheers
Mark

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1 Like
5

In reply to a message from Mark Eaton sent Sun 9 Oct 2016:

Thanks. ;)–
The original message included these comments:

Pep talk: Guys need projects. Once the list from ‘‘the wife’’ is complete,
you’re on your own and in desperate need of your own list.
Ta Da. You have produced your own list. Feelings of desperation diminish and
a steely glint settles into your eye … ;o)
Perhaps the pareto principle should be applied. List leaks in order of
severity. 80% of the leaking will probably be from just one.
Fix that one first. The bulk of your problems have now disappeared with the

–
Bill Gutierrez, '61 OTS '73 OTS
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6

In reply to a message from Lundabo sent Sun 9 Oct 2016:

Besides the vented rear IRS brake kit you might want to get
rid of the rear overpipes and re-route under the
differential, Norm Lutz and I and ??? have done it and it
stops cooking the IRS output seals, ask me how I know?? You
can also use up to a 3’’ exhaust pipe…e-mail off line
for photos of the set up, best, JW–
86XJ-S cpes, Lutz stg.1-3, AAV service
Fresno, CA, United States
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7

Besides the vented rear IRS brake kit you might want to get
rid of the rear overpipes and re-route under the
differential, Norm Lutz and I and ??? have done it and it
stops cooking the IRS output seals, ask me how I know??

Yeah, I’d kinda like to know how you know. The brake rotors are BETWEEN
the over-axle loop of the exhaust system and the IRS output seals, so heat
from the pipes cannot possibly get to the output seals unless it does so by
heating the brake rotors up good 'n hot first!

The diff output seals aren’t cooked by the exhaust pipes, they’re cooked by
the brake rotors getting very hot during hard use and then that heat conducts
through the rotor hubs into the output shafts and directly to the seals.
Vented rotors are the solution because they keep the rotors cooler and cool
them more quickly after hard use before the heat has a chance to work its
way to the output seals. They also generate more airflow in the vicinity
which can only help.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 21 Oct 2016 at 15:53, Dr.Quail wrote:

8

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 21 Oct 2016:

Kirbert, I kept my car totally standard and it is totally
dry. Although spirited and prolonged driving in mountains
could overheat de rear brake disks if D1 and D2 are not
used? I dunno. No mountains in this country. It’s as flat
as a coffee table and not much larger :-). Next summer I’ll
drive to the south of France, no mountains there ‘en route’
also, ha!

Bill,
What I do is concentrate on one of the jobs only, before
going to the next. I put on my favourite music, started
using gloves, no lift so I have a good creeper easy to
rotate and with a high head rest, and a lot of light. If
the work gets troublesome (the must be a better word) or I
get irritated I stop, although I have to follow my own
advice more often). And take it easy, the car is for your
Hobby. It should not be Work.–
Michiel, Double Six VdP (series II build in '78)
Schagen, Netherlands
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9

Old cars leak. Some worse than others. Fix the important leaks first. and if possible nurse the others. Just remember as we all age we will start 'Leaking" some time. So my wife the nurse says, It all goes along with life .

10

Old cars leak.

True enough, but age isn’t the only factor. Design integrity and materials
also figure prominently in the picture, and Jaguar scores poorly in both
disciplines. For example, the bolts holding the sump baffle to the underside
of the block screw into threaded holes that start inside the sump and open
out onto the outside of the block. Those are inherent leak paths that can
only be stemmed by carefully cleaning the threads of both bolt and hole and
reinstalling the bolts with sealant (not threadlocker!) on the threads.
Likewise, the combination of a gasket and a rubber half-moon seal is a poor
design that fails to properly compress the gasket between rigid mating faces
and will typically leak upon assembly if not gooped and will likely leak shortly
after assembly even if gooped. The mating surface between the tappet
block and the head is iffy at best, and Jaguar recommends applying Hylomar
which is a gasket dressing, not a sealant, meaning a good steam clean is
likely to rinse it out of the joint and leave you with an oil leak. It’s no wonder
that these cars normally had drip pans under them on the showroom floor.

If you want a Jaguar that doesn’t leak, you’ve got to do more than simply
reassemble according to the instructions in the ROM. You’ve got to think
about the integrity of the envelope, the boundary between the fluids inside
and the environment outside. Just applying sealant liberally everywhere
often does more harm than good, and applying belts-and-suspenders
principles doesn’t help when neither the belts nor the suspenders provide a
reliable seal.

By the time I sold my '83, the only thing in that car that leaked was the
5-speed NWC tranny I put in it. For some reason, I could never get that
thing to quit leaking. The engine was dry as a bone, though, a sight rarely
seen in Jaguar V12’s.

– Kirbert