[v12-engine] Light engine rebuild


(Vikram Ambrose) #1

My E-type has about 70k miles on it. I need to do water pump
(growling) and clutch (worn out) and decided if I’m going to
pull the engine to do the clutch, might as well refresh it a
little.

Are there any updated parts to use from perhaps later V12
engines? For example the front seal from the 6.0L is often
an upgrade to use when building a 5.3L. Any others like
this? Or even aftermarket alternatives that have
updated/more robust designs?

Regarding water pumps, why are new XJ12 water pumps $150 and
E-Type pumps up to $400? Are there genuine differences or
are they just trying to rob E-type owners? Obviously the
pulleys could just be pressed off and onto the new pump?

Any must do/don’t when rebuilding one of these engines other
than just general engine building process?

Thanks for the help.–
1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Steve) #2

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Fri 29 Apr 2016:

Aren’t confusing front and rear seals?
IIRC, the 5.3L and 6.0L engines use the same front seal (p/n
JLM10613), but the latter uses a one-piece rear seal, while
the former has the rope rear seal.

In any case, with the engine out of the car, refreshing all
gaskets is a good idea. Go for the Gortex style (thin metal
piece covered in PTFE).
Ron doesn’t make his aluminum half-moon seals and update
banjo bolts anymore, so using Jaguar parts is in order.

Kirby recommends in the ‘Book’ replacing the O-ring for the
oil with Viton.

Best regards,
Steve–
The original message included these comments:

Are there any updated parts to use from perhaps later V12
engines? For example the front seal from the 6.0L is often
an upgrade to use when building a 5.3L. Any others like
this? Or even aftermarket alternatives that have
updated/more robust designs?


'95 XJS convertible - V12 6.0L
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(Kirbert - author of the Book, former owner of an '83 XJ-S H.E.) #3

Ron doesn’t make his aluminum half-moon seals and update
banjo bolts anymore, so using Jaguar parts is in order.

Well, not exactly. The thing to do about the half moon seals is to use the
Jaguar OEM half moons with no cam cover gaskets; seal the cam covers
with Loctite 518 instead. For the banjo bolts, they still require modification
for optimum oil flow, and ideally you could fairly easily make your own banjo
bolts by gun-drilling regular bolts of the correct thread. What you want to
end up with is a banjo bolt that’s about 1/4" longer than the OEM banjo bolt
and the cross hole needs to be a couple of millimeters farther from the
underside of the bolt head.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 30 Apr 2016 at 5:13, sbobev wrote:


(Vikram Ambrose) #4

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Sat 30 Apr 2016:

Thanks for the tip on the half moon seal. These Banjo bolts
you guys talk about, what are they for? Oil pressure sender?
I haven’t taken one of these engines apart yet so I’m yet to
familiarise myself with all these little parts.

At 70k miles should I replace the timing chain and tensioner?

And whats the deal with water pumps? Can I just get the XJS
pump and change the pulleys?

Here is a link to the XJS pump at Welsh for $155
http://www.welshent.com/product_info.php?sku=EAC2109N&name=XJS_V12_XJ12_Water_Pump_-_NEW&cPath=985_1009_1013

And here is a link to their S3 E-type pump for $385
http://www.welshent.com/product_info.php?sku=P36914&name=Water_Pump_-V12_E-Type__73-74&cPath=335_359_363–
The original message included these comments:

Well, not exactly. The thing to do about the half moon seals is to use the
Jaguar OEM half moons with no cam cover gaskets; seal the cam covers
with Loctite 518 instead. For the banjo bolts, they still require modification
for optimum oil flow, and ideally you could fairly easily make your own banjo
bolts by gun-drilling regular bolts of the correct thread. What you want to
end up with is a banjo bolt that’s about 1/4’’ longer than the OEM banjo bolt
and the cross hole needs to be a couple of millimeters farther from the
underside of the bolt head.
– Kirbert


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(PeterCrespin) #5

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Fri 29 Apr 2016:

You can do transmission jobs on a Series 3 with engine in
situ (but loose and tilted back) due to no reaction plate
etc.

The pumps are different.–
66 ‘UberLynx’ D, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12L, 97 XJ6L
Gaithersburg, Maryland, United States
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(Kirbert - author of the Book, former owner of an '83 XJ-S H.E.) #6

These Banjo bolts
you guys talk about, what are they for? Oil pressure sender?

Lubrication of cams and tappets.

At 70k miles should I replace the timing chain and tensioner?

Not necessarily. If the tensioner is intact, the chain will last 3X that. The
tensioner will be intact if the engine has never been overheated. But you
should perhaps read my Book and the warnings about that tensioner before
you crack any bolts loose.

And whats the deal with water pumps? Can I just get the XJS
pump and change the pulleys?

The only other issue I know of is that there’s one particular bolt head that
interferes with the pulley, so it’s gotta be replaced with a flush head screw by
countersinking the hole. I think most water pumps have had that done,
though. The OEM screw is Posidriv, don’t try to use a Phillips on it, it gets
boogered up and then the cussing starts.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 30 Apr 2016 at 12:06, V. Ambrose wrote:


(Matt Furness) #7

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Fri 29 Apr 2016:

If you’re pulling some bits off I would do the ‘‘Lutz’’ mod
which essentially redistributes the coolant more evenly
through the engine block. The standard system allows the
coolant flow to bias to the front of the engine block.
Easy to do. While you have the coolant outlets off replace
the pipe between the front and rear coolant outlets with
stainless steel.
If you’re interested I can send you the electronic files
so a suitably equipped machine shop can water jet the
blanking shapes out of thin aluminium. Then you sandwich
them between the outlets and the engine with Loctite or
similar.
If you’re taking the engine out get the starter motor
refurbished… And reconnect the power to the solenoid on
the starter motor before you put the engine back in. Or
try and connect it after the engine is back in.
Send videos!!!
Good luck–
The original message included these comments:

(growling) and clutch (worn out) and decided if I’m going to
pull the engine to do the clutch, might as well refresh it a
little.


Matt Furness 85XJS-HE 5 Speed Manual
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(Vikram Ambrose) #8

In reply to a message from MattFurness sent Sun 1 May 2016:

Block and heads are at the machinist this week. All looks
OK. Some of the valve stems are worn but only on one side.
Not severe but noticeable.

Having a bit of confusion in regards to the water pump. The
pump I took off my car has a casting number EAC2109 PA.
Which according to various parts catalogues is for an XJ12.

The engine block number does match the body so it is the
correct engine for a 1973 XKE 2+2.

I’m guessing at some point someone rebuilt an XJ12 pump and
fit the Etype pulley on it?–
1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Vikram Ambrose) #9

In reply to a message from MattFurness sent Sun 1 May 2016:

The engine is back in the car and all plumbed up. Building
the engine seems like the easy part. Getting all the rest on
was very fiddly.

Haven’t hooked up fuel yet but I’m not getting any oil
pressure after about 3x 10 second cranks.

The oil level on the dipstick is in the thatched area. And
the engine always made good oil pressure before taking it apart.

Unfortunately I did not do any oil pump priming voodoo when
reassembling. Hope I’m not in too much trouble.

Any tips on how to get oil pressure? Perhaps lift the rear
of the car a little?–
The original message included these comments:

(growling) and clutch (worn out) and decided if I’m going to
pull the engine to do the clutch, might as well refresh it a
little.


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(MarekH) #10

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Fri 12 Aug 2016:

Dear Noel,

The reason you don’t have any oil pressure is that the input from
the oil pump takes from two places:- the oil pickup in the sump and
the oil cooler at the front. Sadly the oil cooler is empty and so
it’ll be sucking air half of the time until the excess oil, once
you have some oil circulating, will open the big relief valve and
fill the oil cooler.

A sensible way forward is to prime the galleries and cams with oil
using an insecticide sprayer (a standard airline will fit oil
pressure sender). This ensures you build up pressure more quickly
as there is oil in the engine when you start vcranking, not after,
so the excess goes straight into the oil cooler. Once that has
happened once, it’ll always be pulling oil (not air) into the oil
pump straight away every time.

kind regards
Marek–
The original message included these comments:

Unfortunately I did not do any oil pump priming voodoo when
reassembling. Hope I’m not in too much trouble.
Any tips on how to get oil pressure? Perhaps lift the rear
of the car a little?


v12 E-type running MS3/3X sequential lpg and petrol
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(Vikram Ambrose) #11

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Fri 12 Aug 2016:

Thanks for the explanation.

Not sure I follow the steps. You’re suggesting that I
somehow shoot oil through the opening for the oil pressure
sender?

I didn’t think of the oil cooler. Hmm I wonder if I could
just take the mega size banjo bolt off the front and fill
the tube with oil. I believe that goes straight into the oil
cooler?–
The original message included these comments:

A sensible way forward is to prime the galleries and cams with oil
using an insecticide sprayer (a standard airline will fit oil
pressure sender). This ensures you build up pressure more quickly
as there is oil in the engine when you start vcranking, not after,
so the excess goes straight into the oil cooler. Once that has
happened once, it’ll always be pulling oil (not air) into the oil
pump straight away every time.


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(MarekH) #12

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Sat 13 Aug 2016:

Yes and no.

Yes, I am suggesting you shoot oil into sender connection.

No, the big bolt thing on the front goes down to the output of the
oil pump. It only goes to the bypass/cooler if you are at 60psi+
and the big spring thing is pushed open.

kind regards
Marek–
v12 E-type running MS3/3X sequential lpg and petrol
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(Vikram Ambrose) #13

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sat 13 Aug 2016:

I went and got an adaptor to convert the 3/8’’ NPT on my
sprayer to the 1/4’’ NPT needed for the oil pressure sender.

It takes quite a bit of pressure when using a hand pump to
get oil into the system. I think I pushed in about 1 qt of
20w50. Refit the sender and cranked it a bit. The oil light
has switched off now but nothing registering on the gauge.

There is at least 11 qts in the sump. And now 1qt through
the oil pressure sender.

I think I’ll just push through the entire 5 qt jug I have
and then drain the excess from the sump or when I start
noticing the level on the dipstick go up, I’ll stop.–
The original message included these comments:

Yes, I am suggesting you shoot oil into sender connection.
No, the big bolt thing on the front goes down to the output of the
oil pump. It only goes to the bypass/cooler if you are at 60psi+
and the big spring thing is pushed open.


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Vikram Ambrose) #14

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Sat 13 Aug 2016:

2.5 qts through the oil pressure sender and still nothing on
the gauge.

What is the dry fill oil capacity? The manual only states
the refill as 10.7L. I probably have close to 13 Litres all
in now.

Dipstick showing a tad over max.–
The original message included these comments:

I think I’ll just push through the entire 5 qt jug I have
and then drain the excess from the sump or when I start
noticing the level on the dipstick go up, I’ll stop.


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Vikram Ambrose) #15

In reply to a message from V. Ambrose sent Sat 13 Aug 2016:

Major facepalm moment. I took the sender out and cranked the
engine and I have oil all over the place.

Damn car gods are not happy today. This sender was perfectly
fine before the engine was rebuilt. Now its faulty???

At what sort of PSI does the oil pressure light switch go off?

Found a BECK/ARNLEY part number 2011505 for the sender.
Mostly shows up for 80s cars. Now sure if this is compatible
with the XKE.–
The original message included these comments:

2.5 qts through the oil pressure sender and still nothing on
the gauge.


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Richard Dowling, 1979 XJ-S HE+5sp coupe, 1989 XJ-SC, 2003 XJ8 3.5L) #16

Major facepalm moment. I took the sender out and cranked the
engine and I have oil all over the place.

Damn car gods are not happy today. This sender was perfectly
fine before the engine was rebuilt. Now its faulty???

1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those gauge senders are typically about 15 to 20 years life span.
Replaced mine many years ago.

Richard Dowling, Melbourne, Australia. 1979 coupe + HE V12 + manual;
1989 convertible; 2003 XJ350.

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(Vikram Ambrose) #17

In reply to a message from Richard Dowling sent Sat 13 Aug 2016:

Plot twist. Now with the engine running the oil pressure
sender is working :slight_smile: I have a hair over 60psi showing at
idle now. I’m never trusting that sender again. Next time I
build one of these engines I’ll just put a mechanical oil
pressure gauge on it to verify oil pressure.

Ran the fuel pump for a minute to fill the carbs and it
started instantly. I’ve never heard a carby V12 run so
smooth. Quite chuffed with myself now. Haven’t even set
ignition timing precisely yet.

But alas time will only tell if it holds together well for
another 70k miles.

Thanks again for all the help.–
The original message included these comments:

Damn car gods are not happy today. This sender was perfectly
fine before the engine was rebuilt. Now its faulty???


1973 XKE - http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/
San Jose, CA, United States
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(Sacara) #18

Hi Vikram,

I have a 1984 XJS V12 with 150.000 miles (240.000 km) that I just overheated (my fault!).

After cranking a bit at beginning and running bad now it doesn"t start anymore.

Anyway I would like to rebuild by myself.

While I have some experience working on cars mechanics I have no experience with rebuilding engines tough being an engineer (electrical unfortunately) I well understand how they work.

How difficult is to actually build back the engine? I have no emotions on taking out of the car and also removing parts but I do have on putting all back together, especially on valves clearances, etc.

Did you had some specialized help?

Thanks,

Dorin


(Vikram Ambrose) #19

Its not difficult to build the V12. Its just very slow going. Everything takes a lot of time. Here is a post I made on blogspot which has some pictures; http://v12stealthhunter.blogspot.com/2016/08/engine-rebuild.html

I took the engine block to an industrial washing machine to get it cleaned. It was too greasy to clean by hand.
And I also had a machinist resurface the heads, do a basic valve job and hone the cylinders.


(Robert Laughton) #20

Hi Vic,

I still have that black '74 XJ12 that’s on the front page of your blog.

Good luck,

Rob