Hi Everyone,
I want my V12 in my car to look more conventional, i.e have the
throttle bodies at the ends of the manifolds and not bang in the
middle. I think it looks an awkward design, and for my purposes
wastes a great deal of space.
So I have now started making my intake plenums. 1st I mounted both
manifolds on a piece of 2’’ steel tube, I figured with any welding
and cutting they would get distorted and lose their shape, Next I
cut off the flange that holds the throttle body, and then the main
lump of aluminium off of the intake tracts. For a BIG engine I was
suprised at just how small the inlet tubes are. Anyway now I need
to get some 10 SWG 3.5’’ or 100mm aluminium round tube, I need about
100cm, 50cm (2’) for each side. then its just a case of sorting a
TPS and throttle linkages. It should look awesome. It will also
clear the V of all the leyland clutter.
If I knew how to upload picyures!
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In reply to a message from MarekH sent Wed 8 Feb 2012:
That is very clever Marek, this is the sort of look I am going for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Ferrari-engine-
wallpaper.jpg
I need the manifolds to POINT towards the rear of the car to plumb
straight into the turbos.–
The original message included these comments:
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Wed 8 Feb 2012:
There’s a picture of the same kind of thing you’re talking about on
Roger Bywater’s site, albeit for a normally-aspirated engine:
With forced induction, a lot of the issues are redundant but where
narrow inlet runners are concerned, remember that the cylinder
volume of a V12 doesn’t need to be all that huge to make a big
engine just by multiplication… And with short runners you do
need to keep gas speed up for decent filling below max revs.
Pete–
The original message included these comments:
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Wed 8 Feb 2012:
Hi Pete
that makes sense!
I have started ‘‘flowing’’ my runners, I want then to be at the least
smooth inside. A friend says he will tig weld it all up, the plenum
is to be 3.5’’ 10swg (3mm) aluminium tube. When finished I will
crackle coat it to help heat loss. If its good enough for ferrari
it its good enough for my Zonghini!
I did post some pictures on this site but they need to
be ‘‘checked’’. How long does that take? I have been on here for
years is it always the same?–
The original message included these comments:
There’s a picture of the same kind of thing you’re talking about on
Roger Bywater’s site, albeit for a normally-aspirated engine: V12 ARCHIVES / AJ6 Engineering
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In reply to a message from PeterCrespin sent Wed 8 Feb 2012:
Thanks Peter for mentioning our old Ram-Plenum System.
The important thing was not the plenums so much as the dimensions
of the individual tracts - that makes a hell of a lot of
difference.
We sold about 20 of those in the early 1990s until we realised that
they were far too expensive to make and sell at a reasonable price.
What cannot be seen are the cascade vanes inside the plenums to
ensure equality of flow.
That is why we developed our Plus Torque upgrade of the standard
induction system.
There is nothing wrong with the air capacity or flow distribution
of the standard plenum arrangement. It is getting the tracts,
throttles and air boxes right that produces gains. A modern
designer would be likely to increase the plenum volume because that
improves resonant charge filling. Our large throttles do that by
increasiing the coupling between the plenum volume and the air box
volume.
With forced induction it is the charge density that is increased so
the tracts do not necessarily need to be increased in size. The
tract lengths and gas speeds are still important for best results.–
The original message included these comments:
There’s a picture of the same kind of thing you’re talking about on
Roger Bywater’s site, albeit for a normally-aspirated engine: V12 ARCHIVES / AJ6 Engineering
With forced induction, a lot of the issues are redundant but where
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In reply to a message from RogerBywater sent Thu 9 Feb 2012:
Thats an awesome manifold Roger! Mine will have shorted tracts
though. I believe that on a forced induction the tract length is
not as important as on a naturally aspirated engine.
I am using 3.5’’ 10 swg aluminium tube, which should give a much
larger volume to the plenum than the oem manifold.
Is the balance pipe between the two manifolds required?
Thanks Peter for mentioning our old Ram-Plenum System.
The important thing was not the plenums so much as the dimensions
of the individual tracts - that makes a hell of a lot of
difference.
Roger Bywater / AJ6 Engineering
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In reply to a message from Nicholas 2 sent Thu 9 Feb 2012:
Today I fitted the 2 aluminium tubes to the old manifolds. I have
polished the tubes inside and out, got rifd of teh casting marks
and bits that I will not use so the tubes are nice and smooth and
look GREAT! The 3 1/2’’ aluminium tubes fit like gloves. I have also
made a couple of blanking plates for the non throttle body ends of
the plenums.
I need to figure out how to mount the throttle bodies and get the
whole lot welded up.
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:
Tonight I machined one of the throttle body flanges to fit the
plenum, its looks GREAT!
I am going to use Durafix to braise them it all together, I can’t
wait to get these on the car and running!–
Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Tue 14 Feb 2012:
Hi Nick
well dont really know what made what, I made so many changes at the
same time, new plenum with length tuned bell mouthed runners.
New ‘‘fast Road’’ camshafts, MS injection, cold air intakes, 2,5’’
exhaust etc…
No turbos though…
Car is running awsome on E85, takes off really good, also due to
the TH700R4 tranny with a 2000rpm stalled converter.
Some videos from last spring, MS still not tuned!!
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:
A good friend of mine from MadMechanics.com has given some
aluminium brasing wire so today I had a go. I have to say, I was
somewhat nervous to start, but now I have the hang of it, its
awesome!! I will need to clean it up afterwards but why didn’t I
use this stuf before.–
Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Wed 15 Feb 2012:
I have now finished braising the plenums and I have to say they
look really nice. The seem to make so much more space!
I have also remade and repositioned the TPS tower, I shortened it
and mounted it (in a normal instalation) on the alternator bracket.
I will run cabled from this to the two throttle bodies.
I really need to sort out what I will do for injectors, I am
loathed to put the old rail back, and would rather something a
little lower profile.
The view from inside the car looking back:
The view from the top:
View of the throttle bodies:
questions:
Is the balance pipe needed? If I omit it, will performance suffer?
I have a later TPS (see picture), but it its 5 connectors, and does
not seem to have any internal resistance. Can someone tell me what
this is/does?
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Wed 8 Feb 2012:
I have now just about finished my plenums, fuel rails and
injectors. I ended up making everything!
I decided on BMW 750i injectors as they are high impedance and
about 200 cc/min flow rate which will work well. I found some on
ebay and bought them only to find that they were Siemen injectors
and odd ones at that. They had a vacuum take off on each injector
and a nozzle of 14mm in diameter. This meant I would have to
significantly alter the manifold which I did not want to do. I
canabolised the 750i’s fuel rails and made a set for the V12 jag
using its components, I then pressure tested that to about 6 bar
and it holds great!
I had the dilema as to what to do with the odd injectrs, I had
invested too much money to throw them away. I stripped off the
plastic case and underneath found what looked like a normal
injector, but bacause of the vacuum take off it had a very long
nozzle neck. So I had to make adapters to make them sit perfectly
in the Jags plenums, and result…
I machined the bottom 7mm off of the jags injectors and grafeted
that onto the Siemens injectors and it worked really well. I am
using standard O rings instead of the chunky Jag seals but all
seems fantastic… I just hope it all works
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In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sat 10 Mar 2012:
Today I fitted the last of the rails and plumbed everything up. On
the first attempt to get fuel pressure I had a leak from one of the
injector O rings. This was easily fixed by fitting new O rings. the
2nd time I had a pin hole leak from one of the brackets which under
3 bar the fuel squirted a long way. So off it all came again, and I
brazed the leak back on again. This time no leaks and the pressure
keeps steady for ages.
I have made a couple of tubes to hold the injector wiring, and
spent the rest of the day wiring up the injectors. Just before 6
this evening I had it all wired up…
I set the megasquirt ECU up to cater for the new high impedance
injectors and without vacuum adavance, throttle linkages on one of
the plenums, and all of the other stuff connected fired up the v12…
All I can say is it sounds VERY aggresive and AWESOME!!!
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