[v12-engine] One more Aux Air Valve question

While diagnosing the rough running engine I have determined the
throttle pot is set correctly and I have installed a new coolant
temperature switch. The engine runs good upon start until 4-5
minutes when it will not take pedal acceleration without wanting to
stall. I have read the Kirby manual pg265+ info on the AAV valve
and when I block the port within the air cleaner box to the valve
my engine stalls completely. From what I can discern from the info
then is that in this case, my AAV valve must frozen or not working
correctly. I do not want to remove and clean or rebuild it unless
it is definately not working correctly. I can get a new one for
$300. From what it looks like to rebuild them I might want to
spring for the new one.

Larry
1988 XJ-12 w/ 5.3L engine–
Larry Bollella 1988 XJ V12 VandenPlas 5.3L 1961 MGA Roadste
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Hi Larry,

When you block the hole in the left air cleaner backplate that supplies
air to the AAV intake hose, the engine RPM SHOULD drop to only ~ 200
RPM, or stall. When that hole is blocked, NO air can get into the AAV,
except for a VERY small amount that goes from the distributor cap vent
hose to the “T” on the side of the AAV intake hose.

So the test result you site has NOTHING to do with AAV function. In
fact, if the engine starts normally on cold start, and idles at a
normal or above-normal RPM (at least 750 RPM normal and up to 1100 RPM
immediately after cold start) then if the AAV piston were stuck at the
cold start position (more open than the warm-engine position), the idle
speed would stay high, or get even higher, as the engine warmed. If
the AAV piston were stuck in the warm-engine position (more closed),
then the idle RPM would be very low at cold start, and get higher as
the engine warmed.

If the car starts fine at cold start, but then wants to stall after ~ 5
minutes when it warms, or has less power, or runs rough, the first
thing I would check is the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor), and then the TPS
(Throttle Position Sensor.

The CTS should have a resistance in the range of 2500 ohms at 20C, and
in the range of 250 ohms at 90C. Also make sure the connector has
clean sockets, and that the CTS spades are clean.

When you tested the TPS, what was the red wire voltage at idle with the
key in the run position but engine off?

Did you test to see that the voltage steadily increased from about .32V
at idle to ~ 5.0V at WOT (Wide Open Throttle), with the key on but
engine OFF? There should be no jumps or gaps in the voltage readout
(red meter probe on Red TPS wire pin with all three TPS wires still
connected to the car harness, and black meter probe touching ground).

Please let us know your test results.

George Balthrop, Clifton, VA USA
89 and 85 XJ-S Coupes; 89 XJ40 VDP-----Original Message-----
From: dr pike lbollell@wowway.com

The engine runs good upon start until 4-5 minutes when it will not take
pedal acceleration without wanting to stall.

I have read the Kirby manual pg265+ info on the AAV valve
and when I block the port within the air cleaner box to the valve
my engine stalls completely. From what I can discern from the info
then is that in this case, my AAV valve must frozen or not working
correctly.

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In reply to a message from George Balthrop sent Sat 3 Nov 2012:

Thanks George,
It sounds like my AAV is working correctly then. However, I forgot
to mention that the car idles around 1500 rpm (with a slight
fluctuation up and down when warm) and adjusting the screw on the
AAV inward only makes the engine rpm increase very little if at
all. Adjusting it out doesn’t seem to do much either. I have
replaced the CTS with a new one. I tested the voltage from the
connector terminals and am getting 5 volts on one spade and 0.03 on
the other spade. Also, I tested and reset the throttle pot (it was
around .49) to .39 at idle and it increases nicely up to 5 volts.
About the only thing I haven’t checked is the oxygen sensors or the
fuel pump pressure (it is a brand new pump) at the regulator. It is
now getting to the point that I would take the car to a real
mechanic if I could find one around here (Michigan) that knows how
to work on these exotic, irritating cats. Thanks–
Larry Bollella 1988 XJ V12 VandenPlas 5.3L 1961 MGA Roadste
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In reply to a message from dr pike sent Sun 4 Nov 2012:

Larry,

I think your AAV is stuck. The internal piston stuck in the
down/full open position, such that when the engine is fuly warm,
your rpm are at +/- 1500.

The fix is to take off the AAV and work the piston up and down. Can
maybe do this insitu, but easier on your bench.

There is a writup on my site to do this fix. Time about 1 1/2
hour, and cost may be limited to cutting a new gasket for the AAV,
if you don’t ruin the hose.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarservice.com–
The original message included these comments:

It sounds like my AAV is working correctly then. However, I forgot
to mention that the car idles around 1500 rpm (with a slight
fluctuation up and down when warm) and adjusting the screw on the
AAV inward only makes the engine rpm increase very little if at
all. Adjusting it out doesn’t seem to do much either. I have


www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
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In reply to a message from dr pike sent Sun 4 Nov 2012:

If I remember correctly .39volts is too high. Maybe George can
chime in. Have you set the throttle plates to .002’’? Also make
sure the linkage is adjusted properly and the bushings are
intact.

No vacuum leaks, right? A vacuum leak will cause high idle.

Is your timing set correctly and the distributer in good
shape?–
Greg 1985 XJS HE DANA rear
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In reply to a message from Greg Edge sent Sun 4 Nov 2012:

Thanks for all input. Short of testing the ECU, so far I have
checked throttle linkage, set throttle plates at .002, replaced
CTS, set throttle potentiometer to .36-.39 at idle, had the
injectors cleaned and flow tested. I have not tested the O2 sensors
or the supplimentary air valve (in the rh air box which I believe
should get 12v with the key on). As far as vaccum leaks I can’t
seem to find any. However, I have not tested the manifold
pressure. If I test the vaccum from one of the hose ports at the
rear of the rh intake manifold what kind of pressure should I
have? All in all, it seems to me if the engine runs good at start-
up (idle and acceleration) and poorly after warm-up it is either
getting too much fuel (due to eng sensor/ECU problems) or not
enough air due to air intake system problems (bad AAV). Aye carumba–
Larry Bollella 1988 XJ V12 VandenPlas 5.3L 1961 MGA Roadste
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Hi Larry,

Actually, if the idle RPM is ~ 1500 RPM immediately after cold start,
and the idle speed does NOT decrease or change as the engine warms and
reaches normal operating temperature, then it would appear that your
AAV piston is stuck in the cold or open position. That is confirmed by
the fact that when you block the AAV intake at the left air cleaner,
the RPM drops and the engine dies.

In summary, high idle speed means too much air is getting into the
intake. Blocking the AAV intake and having the engine die indicates
that ALL of that excess air is getting in via the AAV intake (through
the AAV) and NOT from some other “vacuum leak” or opening into the
intake manifold.

What I was trying to emphasize in my earlier post is that even though
the AAV is stuck open, that condition is NOT the cause of the engine
dying upon application of throttle once the engine warms (5 minutes or
more after cold start). If it runs fine, except for fast idle RPM for
nearly 5 minutes after cold start, and is then rough and dies on
acceleration once warm, you have a problem OTHER than the stuck AAV, as
the AAV being open JUST gives fast idle and NOT rough running or dying.

Is the TPS that is installed in your vehicle the original Black (round)
TPS, or is it the replacement Red (oblong) TPS?

I have seen a case where a similar “dying when warm” problem was
associated with a bad TPS or bad TPS wiring. A test to see if this is
your problem is to check the TPS output voltage at the Red TPS wire
with the key in position 2/run and engine off, and throttle in idle
position (don’t press throttle or turn capstan). Measure the idle Red
TPS wire voltage before starting when the engine is cold, and
immediately after turning the engine off.

If you find that the voltage was in the .30V to .40V range before cold
start, and has fallen very low (say .02 to .05V) after running and
warming, that would explain your problem. Also, after the engine
warms, and starts to die or run rough, try disconnecting the TPS
connector (3-pins) and see if the condition remains or changes.

If your Red wire TPS voltage is currently set to .39V, that is close
enough for now.

When testing the Red TPS wire voltage, pull the TPS connector apart
JUST enough so that you can get the red meter probe into the rubber
sleeve of the female socket for the Red wire pin. The male pins MUST
remain in contact with the female sockets. Place the Black meter probe
in contact with a good ground, such as the clean aluminum of the intake
manifold. Make sure the engine is OFF, but the key is in Position 2,
or Run position.

Please let us know what you find in those tests, and perhaps we can
solve your problem.

BTW, in testing the CTS, you measure RESISTANCE (Ohms) across the two
male spades of the CTS after removing the connector. As stated before,
the resistance should be in the range of 2500 Ohms at 20C coolant temp,
and 250 Ohms at 90C coolant temp.

It sounds like you measured voltage at the connector female sockets.
One of those should be 5V supply, and the other should be ground (you
found .03V which is essentially ground).

I wouldn’t worry about the O2 sensors (won’t cause the problems you
describe even if they don’t work at all) or fuel pump just yet. I
would concentrate on the CTS and TPS for now.

Your V12 is different enough that is hard to find people who know it
and can diagnose a problem. Fortunately there are enough people on
this forum who are familiar with the unusual sytems of this engine that
you are likely to find a solution here if you just have patience and
check things out. It may take some time, but the solution should NOT
be expensive.

George Balthrop, Clifton, VA USA
89 and 85 XJ-S Coupes; 89 XJ40 VDP-----Original Message-----
From: dr pike lbollell@wowway.com

It sounds like my AAV is working correctly then. However, I forgot
to mention that the car idles around 1500 rpm (with a slight
fluctuation up and down when warm) and adjusting the screw on the
AAV inward only makes the engine rpm increase very little if at
all. Adjusting it out doesn’t seem to do much either.

I have replaced the CTS with a new one. I tested the voltage from the
connector terminals and am getting 5 volts on one spade and 0.03 on
the other spade.

Also, I tested and reset the throttle pot (it was
around .49) to .39 at idle and it increases nicely up to 5 volts.

About the only thing I haven’t checked is the oxygen sensors or the
fuel pump pressure (it is a brand new pump) at the regulator. It is
now getting to the point that I would take the car to a real
mechanic if I could find one around here (Michigan) that knows how
to work on these exotic, irritating cats.

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