Dear All;
Does anyone knows how to check if the torquatrol is dead or good ?–
XJS Convertible 1994 V12 6 liters. France.
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Joel Drenne wrote:
Does anyone knows how to check if the torquatrol is dead or good ?
We’re talking about the fan clutch. right? The best way I’ve heard
to test it is to replace it and see if the overheating problems go
away.
I would go so far as to suggest that if you can see evidence of fluid
leaking out if it, it’s toast. The leaks usually leave radial
streaks. However, it can be bad WITHOUT such streaks.
– Kirbert
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Thu 14 Jul 2005:
Yep, the fan clutch. I was told to put a screwdriver on it, and if
it does stop, it is dead… I did so, but with something more soft
than a screwdriver, and it did stop turning, but I am not sure if
it’s a reliable way of testing or not …–
XJS Convertible 1994 V12 6 liters. France.
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At 13:14 2005-07-14 -0400, Kirbert wrote:
Joel Drenne wrote:
Does anyone knows how to check if the torquatrol is dead or good ?
We’re talking about the fan clutch. right? The best way I’ve heard
to test it is to replace it and see if the overheating problems go
away.
The fan clutch is supposed to offer a small amount of resistance to turning
when it is cool (try putting a baggie with ice on the front of the unit for
a minute or two and see how easily it spins), and an increasing amount of
resistance as it it warmed up (but never quite 100% lock-up). I don’t know
that there’s an official measurement tool (in the grand scheme, the part is
cheap enough that the service diagnostics in a shop will cost you more than
the part, and since the WSM is written with Jaguar service personnel in
mind, such trivial tests are probably well beyond its scope). This is
different than say, testing a coolant temperature sensor, to ensure that
some other component is getting a correct reading.
The basic test though is either the fan pulls air when the engine is
spinning when it is hot out, or it doesn’t. You should have a noticeable
airflow with the bonnet open and the engine running. Further, at higher
RPMs (when driving down the road, and there’s actual airflow through the
front), it should cap out - it’s not a positive lock. If you have an
intense thrum when the engine is at RPM, suspect that the fan clutch isn’t
opening up.
Ensure the coil is free of debris - if it can’t turn, it can’t open and
close the valve (which is there at the middle of the coil). If you
carefully take a small flat blade screwdriver and insert it near the
middle, and turn the coil with it, the valve should turn, and you should
feel a difference in the resistance to rotating the blades.
I would go so far as to suggest that if you can see evidence of fluid
leaking out if it, it’s toast. The leaks usually leave radial
streaks. However, it can be bad WITHOUT such streaks.
Er, there may be a small glop of grease on the bimetal coil at the
front. This shouldn’t be mistaken for leaking fluid.
I suspect that one of these units could be serviced. I replaced the one
knowing WHAT went wrong could be useful in repairing the unit - it should
be possible to heat up the bimetal coil and remove it, work the rotary
valve (which might be binding, drain and refill the unit (er, I haven’t the
first idea what fluid is in there), and reassemble. There’s probably an
o-ring or two in there as well. No, I don’t suggest this as a viable
service procedure in the here and now - if yours is bad, just buy a new one
– but if you have suitable storage space, keeping the old one might be
worthwhile 10-20 years from now, when an increasing number of parts may be
harder to find. OTOH, by then, replacing the fan with an electric setup
will probably be very appealing.
IIRC, the basic method of operation is the bimetal coil expands and
contracts with temperature - just like an old style home thermostat unit
(with a mercury switch inside) - except that the coil actuates a valve
which opens or closes, to allow the fluid inside to either flow (open/cool)
so that the unit more or less freewheels, or blocks the flow (closed/hot)
so that the unit firms up and allows the attached fan assembly to rotate
with the shaft.
— '88 Jaguar XJ-SC 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Black Cat’
Sean Straw '85 Jaguar XJ-S 5.3L V12 (LHD) ‘Bad Kitty’
Sonoma County, California '91 Jaguar XJ40 4.0L (LHD) ‘Trevor’
http://jaguar.professional.org/ '69 Buick GranSport 455 V8
Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !from my Cabrio when I swapped out the fan some years ago. At a minimum,
Joel,
At one point I had a problems with the engine not cooling back
down after heat soak back. That is, I’d start the car after a 15-20
minute rest and the gauge would be over the N. That’s normal in my book,
but what was not normal was it sometimes would not drop down
while driving. I had done everything else imaginable so I decided to
replace the fan clutch, even though it passed the “spin test” that
was the common wisdom at the time. After all, it was some 25 years old
and not a difficult job. That solved the problem. I concluded there was
no way to tell if these things are working outside a laboratory.
That said, your car is not really that old, so I’m not sure I’d do
it casually.
Ed Sowell
76 XJ-S
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html
Yep, the fan clutch. I was told to put a screwdriver on it, and if
it does stop, it is dead… I did so, but with something more soft
than a screwdriver, and it did stop turning, but I am not sure if
it’s a reliable way of testing or not …
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Joel Drenne wrote:
Yep, the fan clutch. I was told to put a screwdriver on it, and if it
does stop, it is dead… I did so, but with something more soft than a
screwdriver, and it did stop turning, but I am not sure if it’s a
reliable way of testing or not …
It’s not. You’d have to calibrate the screwdriver and the putting on
of it. Let’s face it, a big enough screwdriver and it’s gonna stop!
And your test method doesn’t even mention whether the air coming
through the rad is hot or cool. All in all, pretty worthless test
procedure.
There is some story about getting the engine warmed up (so the fan
clutch is warmed up as well) and then using a timing light connected
to a plug wire to flash at the fan. If the fan was turning at the
same rpm as the engine, it’d look like it was standing still – but I
don’t think that’s gonna happen. The difference in pulley size means
the belt turns the shaft a bit faster than the engine I think, but
the fan clutch will slip more than that. The faster you rev the
engine, the more it will slip. So, you could slowly increase the
engine rpm until the fan looks like it’s standing still, which it
will do when it’s turning exactly half crank speed. Then note what
rpm this happens at. Then compare the rpm to other XJ-S’s,
preferably one with a known good or brand new fan clutch.
In theory, if all cars are operating at similar temperature, the fan
should appear to stand still under the timing light at fairly close
to the same rpm. If it happens at a significantly LOWER rpm on your
car than on other cars, your fan clutch is shot. Fact is, you might
not even get it to look like it’s standing still, because it could be
slipping too much at idle to get there – you’d have to slow the
engine to below idle to get it to appear to stand still.
Of course, this method would require several people to try this and
report on the rpm readings they get. This list sounds like a good
place. Anybody up for this? Obviously, you need to have the OEM
belt-driven fan setup to provide a useful data point.
– Kirbert
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There’s got to be a better way to test a fan clutch. I think your idea is
fine and doable, and probably smarter than what I could come up with, but
liquid thermal couplers have operating properties which have got to be
measurable.
Would I be wrong to think that a fan unit attached to a drill press spinning
the unit while applying heat (heat gun) would change the properties of the
spinning fan.
Or just the starting properties of a hot or cold new unit (still bench
testing) while holding or hindering the blades (applying torque to clutch).
If we could come up with a test method that a guy could do in his (or her)
garage I would gladly purchase a new fan clutch tomorrow and measure both my
old and new fan clutch. I’ve 94K miles with the original fan clutch and an
engine that does not have cooling problems - currently.
Keith
Seattle
Joel Drenne wrote:
Yep, the fan clutch. I was told to put a screwdriver on it, and if it
does stop, it is dead… I did so, but with something more soft than a
screwdriver, and it did stop turning, but I am not sure if it’s a
reliable way of testing or not …It’s not. You’d have to calibrate the screwdriver and the putting on
of it. Let’s face it, a big enough screwdriver and it’s gonna stop!
And your test method doesn’t even mention whether the air coming
through the rad is hot or cool. All in all, pretty worthless test
procedure.There is some story about getting the engine warmed up (so the fan
clutch is warmed up as well) and then using a timing light connected
to a plug wire to flash at the fan. If the fan was turning at the
same rpm as the engine, it’d look like it was standing still – but I
don’t think that’s gonna happen. The difference in pulley size means
the belt turns the shaft a bit faster than the engine I think, but
the fan clutch will slip more than that. The faster you rev the
engine, the more it will slip. So, you could slowly increase the
engine rpm until the fan looks like it’s standing still, which it
will do when it’s turning exactly half crank speed. Then note what
rpm this happens at. Then compare the rpm to other XJ-S’s,
preferably one with a known good or brand new fan clutch.In theory, if all cars are operating at similar temperature, the fan
should appear to stand still under the timing light at fairly close
to the same rpm. If it happens at a significantly LOWER rpm on your
car than on other cars, your fan clutch is shot. Fact is, you might
not even get it to look like it’s standing still, because it could be
slipping too much at idle to get there – you’d have to slow the
engine to below idle to get it to appear to stand still.Of course, this method would require several people to try this and
report on the rpm readings they get. This list sounds like a good
place. Anybody up for this? Obviously, you need to have the OEM
belt-driven fan setup to provide a useful data point.– Kirbert
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In reply to a message from Keith Morris sent Fri 15 Jul 2005:
I removed the bimetalic spring while I had the radiator out. It
just pulls out and can be reinserted again. I then moved the
slotted center post and tested for more or less resistance. Seems
like this test should have given some indication but it didn’t. So
I replaced the whole fan with an electric 18’’ fan with an
adjustable probe. Guess I’ll need to experiment where the best
place for the probe will be. I suspect the probe in the fins will
work.
Noel–
Jagsand30jugs
Edmond, OK, United States
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In reply to a message from Jagsand30jugs sent Fri 15 Jul 2005:
Well, it looks not easy to know if that thing does work or not.
Probably best to stop scratching my head and change it, or may be
go for an electric replacement…–
XJS Convertible 1994 V12 6 liters. France.
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Keith Morris wrote:
Would I be wrong to think that a fan unit attached to a drill press
spinning the unit while applying heat (heat gun) would change the
properties of the spinning fan.
Perhaps there’s a plan in there somewhere, but asking owners to
remove the fan clutch from the car, mount it in a drill press, spin
it at some specified rpm and apply a heat gun in order to determine
its condition is a bit much, don’t you think? I suspect that, even
if a procedure were developed, most would just buy a new fan clutch
instead.
Or just the starting properties of a hot or cold new unit (still bench
testing) while holding or hindering the blades (applying torque to
clutch).
I believe it’s the operation when hot that’s important to owners, so
any testing procedure should involve a fully warmed-up engine.
So, drive the car around until it’s warm, then shut it off, connect a
fish scale to the tip of one blade, and restart it. Read what the
fish scale indicates, a measurement of how much torque the fan clutch
is applying.
I have a couple of problems with this idea. First, it requires that
the owner have a fish scale, and it requires that he figure out how
to attach it to a blade tip. Second, I’m not sure the “stall torque”
of a fan clutch is a valid criteria; while I was inside a fan clutch
(I’ve had one of each type apart, the pix are posted somewhere I
think), it looked like the spinning of the clutch was necessary to
properly move the viscous fluid around to make it work. Third,
running the clutch stalled like that might actually damage it, or at
least affect its performance; like, it might get it too hot if done
for more than a few seconds. Fourth, I think it might be just a tad
dangerous if someone has something come loose while trying to measure
the torque with a fish scale while the engine is running.
Yeah, you could do the same type test on the bench instead, but I
still think a usable test must be done in situ. Taking the fan
clutch out is just too difficult. Besides, for all I know the clutch
must be mounted on a horizontal shaft to work right, mounting on a
vertical shaft may screw it up, cause all the fluid to collect in one
spot or another or some such.
If we could come up with a test method that a guy could do in his (or
her) garage I would gladly purchase a new fan clutch tomorrow and
measure both my old and new fan clutch.
To my mind, the use of the timing light is just about ideal. Can be
easily done with the fan and clutch in place, and the only tools
required are a timing light (which is pretty essential for setting
the timing as well, so owners should have one or know where to get
one) and a tach, and the tach is in the dash.
The only problem is that some baseline data must be collected in
order to interpret the results of the test. Anyone with the OEM belt-
driven fan setup and a timing light should be able to establish with
some accuracy at what engine rpm the fan looks like it’s stationary,
which means it’s turning at 1/2 crank rpm. The problem is that you
won’t know anything unless you know what engine rpm it SHOULD happen
at. If we could establish that and put it in the Book, others should
be able to test their fan clutches pretty easily.
What’d be really great is if someone could test a fan clutch that is
known to be faulty. I’d love to have that data point as well!
BTW, it might prove helpful to mark the fan blades with white-out or
some such to make them easier to see with the timing light.
Depending, of course, on whether you have the metal fan, the yellow
plastic fan, or the black plastic fan. And, oh, by the way: with any
data collected, we’d need to know which fan, and we’d need to know
which fan clutch – the 1-bolt or the 4-bolt.
I’ve 94K miles with the
original fan clutch and an engine that does not have cooling problems
- currently.
Way back when, I replaced a fan clutch because I was convinced it
wasn’t working right. But I really didn’t know for sure. Later on,
Marty Sullivan was visiting me with his H&E, and on the way out of
here his fan clutch failed in a big way: the bearing broke inside the
fan clutch itself so the whole thing was wobbling around, vibrating
the whole car. He’s really lucky it didn’t fly off. So we removed
that unit and put my old one in and sent him on his way. I STILL
have no idea if that fan clutch was any good or not.
For all I know, 94K miles or more may be typical for one of these fan
clutches. Since a viable test procedure has never been established,
there have only been a handful of cases where a fan clutch has been
demonstrably defective – such as Marty’s, or the couple of cases
where an overheating problem definitely cleared up upon replacement.
It’s quite possible, probable even, that MOST of the fan clutches
that have been replaced over the years had nothing wrong with them,
the overheating was due to something else – Barr’s Leaks, tobacco in
the radiator fins, whatever – and the fan clutch was replaced as
part of a shotgun attempt at curing the overheating issues.
As you all know, the unanswerable question of whether the fan clutch
is working properly is one of the chief reasons I advocate throwing
the thing over the hedge and installing electric fans. It’s easy to
troubleshoot an electric fan. But if we came up with a viable,
repeatable test for the fan clutch, maybe I could back off of that
recommendation. I still think installing an electric fan is CHEAPER,
mine cost me $25, and I still think it’s better, but a verifiable fan
clutch would at least be acceptable. At present, I consider it
unacceptable that, six months after you pay Jaguar prices for a new
fan clutch, the only way to know for sure that it’s still working is
to pay Jaguar prices for ANOTHER new fan clutch.
– Kirbert
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Jagsand30jugs wrote:
I removed the bimetalic spring while I had the radiator out. It
just pulls out and can be reinserted again.
Ooooh, I don’t think that’s right. I seem to recall being unable to
remove the spring on mine. I could disconnect it at its OD so I
could turn it around, but it was securely fastened at the center.
I then moved the
slotted center post and tested for more or less resistance. Seems
like this test should have given some indication but it didn’t.
OK, everybody go take a look at this:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/FanClutch.html
I deduced from that investigation that the bimetal coil operates the
clutch by redirecting the fluid inside from one chamber into another.
If the clutch isn’t spinning, the fluid isn’t moving, so the bimetal
coil does nothing. It’s gotta be spinning to work.
I still wonder about a coil that can be lifted out.
So I
replaced the whole fan with an electric 18’’ fan with an adjustable
probe.
Excellent plan IMHO. BTW, when you jumper the circuit and run the
fan, does it generate a good breeze? I’ve seen a couple that didn’t.
Incredibly enough, some companies offer electric fans that suck –
or, more literally, don’t suck – and charge big bucks for them, and
sometimes even post impressive CFM numbers. It’s very important here
to have a fan that really moves some air. The GM fan I snagged from
a junkyard for $25 or so would clear the leaves off my driveway as I
drove down it.
Guess I’ll need to experiment where the best place for the
probe will be. I suspect the probe in the fins will work.
A probe anywhere will work if the temp is set low enough to make
sure the fan is running when needed. The trick is to shut it off
when it’s not needed without shutting it off when it is needed.
I actually think that a probe stuck into the fins is not a bad plan.
Ideally it shouldn’t plug a hole through the fins, but rather should
fit loosely so air can flow around it. If there’s no airflow in
there, the probe will quickly get nearly as hot as the coolant inside
the nearby tubes, 180�F or so. If there IS airflow in there, the air
should cool the probe to considerably lower than the coolant temp,
perhaps 140�F or so. It should therefore be a simple matter to set
the switch to bring on the fan whenever there’s no airflow.
Now that I think about it, it might make some difference in which
part of the core you insert it. I’m thinking that it would work best
if it was in an area where the fan definitely moves the air, as
opposed to an area in one corner or somewhere where the fan really
doesn’t provide much airflow. And it’d probably be better to be
closer to the radiator outlet where the coolant is coolest when there
is airflow but still hot when there is not. That way, when there is
adequate airflow, both the airflow AND the cooler coolant will help
bring the temp of the probe down, while inadequate airflow will still
result in a hot probe.
– Kirbert
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Well, it looks not easy to know if that thing does work or not.
Probably best to stop scratching my head and change it,
If your sure the rest of the system is Ok, that’s the thing to do.
or may be
go for an electric replacement…
And an upgraded alternator?
Ed Sowell
76 XJ-S
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html
–
XJS Convertible 1994 V12 6 liters. France.
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In reply to a message from Ed Sowell sent Fri 15 Jul 2005:
Well, Ed, your are right… going for an electric fan replacement,
does bring the Alternator question …
I would not like to upgrade it, so I just hope it will be powerfull
enought for the new electric fan.–
The original message included these comments:
And an upgraded alternator?
Ed Sowell
–
XJS Convertible 1994 V12 6 liters. France.
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Joel,
Well, Ed, your are right… going for an electric fan replacement,
does bring the Alternator question …I would not like to upgrade it, so I just hope it will be powerful
enough for the new electric fan.
It might be OK. I don’t see too much of a downside in waiting to see.
OTOH, there might be better access to the alternator area after the
mechanical fan is out and before you put the electric in place.
Ed Sowell
76 XJ-S
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html
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In reply to a message from Ed Sowell sent Sat 16 Jul 2005:
Is there an alternator that will replace the air pump?? Then run 2
alternators.–
The original message included these comments:
I would not like to upgrade it, so I just hope it will be powerful
enough for the new electric fan.
–
Jagsand30jugs
Edmond, OK, United States
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 15 Jul 2005:
Kirby, My coil was slightly staked in the center. I just removed
the bimetallic coil and if I were to replace it, I would restake
it.
General comment
Years ago Arizona residents had a sure cure for those $&^%#
Hydraulic clutches. They would drill a 1/4 hole through them and
insert a bolt!!!
Cheap and is a positive one time test?? Who knows, maybe hot
places should use this method?–
The original message included these comments:
I removed the bimetalic spring while I had the radiator out. It
–
Jagsand30jugs
Edmond, OK, United States
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I’m not sure if anyone has left the OE alternator in place while doing so,
but several people have put a new, bigger alternator in place of the
air pump.
Ed Sowell
76 XJ-S
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html
Is there an alternator that will replace the air pump?? Then run 2
alternators.
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Joel Drenne wrote:
Well, Ed, your are right… going for an electric fan replacement,
does bring the Alternator question …I would not like to upgrade it, so I just hope it will be powerfull
enought for the new electric fan.
Which brings up an interesting question: Will you be able to tell?
If the alt has enough capacity to meet the loads, the voltage remains
between 13.6V and 14.4V. With a CS130 alt, it’ll be at 14.4V when
cold, 13.6V when fully warmed up. With the Lucas alt that was in my
'83, it just stayed at 13.6V all the time. I dunno what the Bosch
alt does, whether it has temperature compensation built in.
Whatever, you can plug a VOM into your cigarette lighter and watch
the voltage as you drive. The voltage will sometimes drop at idle
because the engine isn’t turning the alt fast enough to generate full
amperage. But at anywhere above 1500 rpm or so, you’d hope that the
voltage stays at 13.6V like a rock.
Will it stay there when the climate control fans are on full blast,
the wipers and headlights are on, and you’ve got the stereo blaring?
And you keep running the windows up and down? I dunno. If you drive
like that ALL THE TIME, you’d better hope so, or you’ll have dead
battery issues. OTOH, if you only use those loads occasionally, it’s
usually not an issue.
If the alt can’t meet the load, the system voltage will start to fall
off. Sorta like a brownout. The voltage can drop as far as to 12.0V
without too much in the way of negative implications, but if you’ve
got that VOM hooked up and notice it, you know the status of your
charging system – the alt isn’t keeping up, you’re pretty well maxed
out on load.
If the system voltage drops below 12.0V, you’re going to start using
battery charge, which may cause you to get stranded the next time you
go to start it. It also can cause issues like headlights that aren’t
as bright as they should be so you don’t have optimum visibility at
night.
So the question becomes: was the original alt big enough to hold
13.6V even when everything in the car was operating? If so, I
seriously doubt that adding an electric fan will cause any
consternation. It’s a comparable load to the climate system blowers
or the wipers. Adding one more such load, especially if you provide
a control switch that only brings it on when needed, probably
wouldn’t cause voltage drops except when those other loads are on
TOO, which will probably be rare enough that the battery will pull
you through those times.
If, OTOH, Jaguar already banked on the occasional nature of some of
those loads and the OEM alt is NOT big enough to handle all the
existing loads in the car at the same time even without adding an
electric fan, well, then you’ve got worries. You can deal with them
on a temporary basis by limiting use of other electrical loads such
as the high speed on the climate control blowers, but in the long run
you’ll probably want to upgrade the alt.
– Kirbert
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Jagsand30jugs wrote:
Kirby, My coil was slightly staked in the center. I just removed the
bimetallic coil and if I were to replace it, I would restake it.
I’m pretty sure the center end of the one in those pix had a weld
bead on it or something at the center.
Years ago Arizona residents had a sure cure for those $&^%#
Hydraulic clutches. They would drill a 1/4 hole through them and
insert a bolt!!!
I saw an XJ6 once where somebody had run a neat little weld bead all
the way around it.
Cheap and is a positive one time test?? Who knows, maybe hot
places should use this method?
I certainly would NOT recommend such methods with the OEM yellow
plastic fan. That thing commonly comes apart as it is. Running it
at twice its intended speed is just asking for grenading under the
hood.
Fact is, I don’t consider this a wise move at all. You’ll increase
air flow a bit at idle, a LOT at highway speeds where you don’t need
it, and noise by a LOT. My brother had a fan clutch on a Dodge seize
up while he was going down a highway, and he thought the transmission
had failed and put the car into low gear. The scream from under the
hood and the sudden deceleration both indicated the car had
downshifted when in fact it had not.
Some advocate addressing some of those issues with a flex fan that
flattens out at speed. This does help avoid moving quite so much air
at highway speeds, but it does little for the noise issue – those
things are still loud.
What I would advise to those who live in hot places, besides the same
old song of single-pass radiator, electric fans, and coolant filters:
you might want to raise the idle a bit. With the belt-driven fan,
this will help move more air through the engine compartment while
stuck in traffic. Even if you already have the electric fans, it’ll
still help the water pump move the coolant around more.
– Kirbert
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Jagsand30jugs wrote:
Is there an alternator that will replace the air pump??
Yes, there is, the CS130. It’s not without some concerns, though,
especially if the belt-driven fan is left in place – the belt either
narrowly misses or contacts the idler arm. If you yank the belt-
driven fan, though, it’s a snap to put a CS130 there.
I suspect a CS130D will work just as well, but haven’t tried it
myself and haven’t heard many reports of others trying it.
Then run 2 alternators.
That was discussed a couple of times before, with some people
insisting it’ll work fine while others forecasting trouble. One
thing’s for sure, though: there’s no need. The CS130 has 105A
capacity in stock form, and can be hopped up to provide 140A. I used
a 105A in my '83, and it had more than enough capacity despite a 16"
GM electric fan, a small Mercedes fan that probably drew more power
than the GM fan, and 600 watts of headlights. Just install a CS130
and remove the Lucas. In one swoop, you go from 4 V-belts to 2.
– Kirbert
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