[v12-engine] turbo V12,6.0L

V12-Engine
21

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sat 26 Feb 2011:

Ron,
No, sorry! The flat head has no combustion chamber the HE has the
exhaust valve recessed in a chamber of about 30cc according to a
number of people. So using the HE pistons on a Flathead would
yield like a bizzilon to 1 compression ratio. (I might be slightly
exagerating. silly grin) Oops don’t forget the valves stick
slightly proud of the surface on the flathead My memory is foggy
but I think it’s about 7 cc when you subtract for the spark plug
recess and add the height of the valves…(it’s early morning as I
write this)… So figure about a bizillion .8 to 1 (another silly
grin)
The combustion chamber is in the piston on the flathead. stock
pistons were 7.8-1 9.0-1 and 10.-1 (last half 1980 in europe)
Under the exhaust valve on the HE (in the head)
Your idea of pressure forcing the exhaust out? Doesn’t work that
way! On intake under turbo pressure piston going down. Intake valve
closes Piston comes up on compression, piston goes down on power
and exhaust valve opens and piston comes up on exhaust… events are
too far apart… as for overlap? on a stock camshaft? Besides
you can’t have overlap on a turbo motor! That’s one of the no-
no’s Exhaust Pipes go from white hot to none existant with
overlap…
OOPs!! You don’t understand the purpose of the computer
program! You plug data into the program, turn on computer,
computer assembles and runs the engine (Cyberly) prints out a real
dyno sheet…
If you have good data* you will get accurite data out… correct
within 2% (you’ll get more variation from run to run on an actual
dyno)You can confirm you have good data by running the engine in a
stock configuration and the power output should match the stock
power output. If off slightly adjust untill the numbers duplicate
the stock numbers… (published lots of places)
The program I’ve used for decades now is constantly accurite. I
used to do the program and then run things on a superflow dyno and
constantly I was accurite… Mines an old Engine analizer pro
while the new one seems to be a lot more user friendly.
Want to build a 10 litre V12? won’t cost you a dime and you can
see actual numbers… then want to supercharge it? Run a set of
Webers, 3 holley’s, a partridge in a pear tree? (opps now I’m
getting silly)
I’ve got a lot of flowbench numbers I can give you, Borrow some
junk HE head and spend $10-$20 getting flow bench numbers. (only
have to do one intake and one exhaust) That’s the only data I can’t
give you… The Fuel injection manifold already has numbers
published for it both stock and modified…
Oh, and if you want you can also take a stock exhaust manifold and
put it on the flow bench to see how nice that flows…
OOPs running out of space, Don’t forget if you have the turbo’s
below the crank centerline you’ll have to figure a way to get the
return oil back into the oil pan… Some kind of pump…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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22

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Sat 26 Feb 2011:

The following recent thread from last year is probably relevant to
this discussion:-

http://forums.jag-lovers.org/av.php?1401505m31

Depending on the car (etype, xj12, xjs), where there is or isn’t
space for the hardware to go is going to dictate much of how this
might be implemented. I did look at space around the etype engine
and as I remember it, the engine frames looked to provide quite a
constraint, although there was bags of space at the front of the
engine.

I would anticipate that some of the ancillaries would be relocated,
e.g alternator, brake booster, etc. I have just finished sorting
out how to fit both fuel injection and sequential lpg injection
into the v12 etype engine bay and this entailed relocating
ancillaries to make space for the extra plumbing, vapouriser units,
gas rails and filters. To accommodate the interconnecting pipework
for a turbo would be a much bigger headache, especially as only the
short block and intake side is symmetrical - the rest will leave
differently located pockets of space on either side.

The idea of placing only a small turbo (perhaps driven by only one
exhaust manifold per side?) very close to the intake plenum, might
be a way forward. Simply plumbing in all of the large diameter
pipework takes away a lot of spare space if the turbo is any great
distance from the inlet/outlet ports.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
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23

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sun 27 Feb 2011:

Marek,
I built a XJ-S V12 for chump car racing… twin used Volvo
turbo’s . I had to curl the exhaust up and over to get them behind
the front tires. Their higher location (they are really lite) made
oil drainback into the engine really easy… Because it was Chump
car where crude is appreciated ($500 cars that race for 24 hours) I
made the cutout for the Volvo intercoolers crudely but could have
easily done a nice job…
On my Racing XK-E V12 where the turn signals were I could have
put the intercoolers and picked up air from in front of the
radiators for brake cooling… Since I had six 2 inch tubes 31
inches long (or were they 1&3/4inch?) per side there is a lot of
room available on an XK-E V12 Now I didn’t use that bulky brake
booster and the $ stage dry sump pump alternator and power steering
pump (on the back of the dry sump pump) were all on the passenger
side of the car. I think you’d have to use the XJ-S manifolds
though the XK-E are too long… Nor did I have heater A/C or a lot
of other stuff.
I still believe it could be done… Did you see the 3 Hieny
manifolds made by the guy who used 3 turbo chargers in his XK-E
series 2?–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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24

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Sun 27 Feb 2011:

Dear Mguar,
I am not familiar with aftermarket turbos on a s2 etype.

Unless Ron says otherwise, I’d have thought a solution which
preserves the good looks and integrity of his XJS would have been
where he is coming from. As such, the space constraints probably
remain and as the XJS is much heavier than an etype, removal of the
brake booster probably can’t be assumed either.

In any case, XJS manifolds fitted on an etype, point the exhaust at
the edge of the upper frame rails.

re:- turbo placement - if the turbo exhaust gas inlet and outlets
are offset 90 degrees then perhaps the other lower engine geometry
will allow the turbo to be used as a replacement for the downpipes.

kind regards
Marek–
The original message included these comments:

I still believe it could be done… Did you see the 3 Hieny
manifolds made by the guy who used 3 turbo chargers in his XK-E
series 2?

–
MarekH
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25

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sun 27 Feb 2011:

Marek,
The three turbo’s on an S2 XK-E I refer are in the Motorbooks
book about Turbo’s (towards the back. He actually built them to
work by kludging the cold start injector to respond to boost at
first but eventually went alll the way with them. I’ve got it
around here someplace, let me see if I can find it for you.
There are some very small turbo’s out there… granted they
produce extremely little boost but the smaller the turbo the less
lag. Thus they could help getting a Car going and while they
wouldn’t generate a lot of boost according to what was written
high power out wasn’t paramount. The compression is still to high
to work well but some boost could be tolerated with a proper
controller.
The one flaw in the V12 is bottom end grunt… Stock the motor is
overcammed and You can actually feel it come on camare the rev’s
rise above 3500.
Well, I am not exactly correct in the comment it’s over cammed.
the flaw is the port sizes required to make power… They are too
large for Low RPM response and need enough volume to work well.
Small turbo’s would help that (while hurting flow at high RPM)
If there is budget enough a pair of small turbo’s could be
specified with a large Exhaust volute and small boost volute. That
way a minimum of loss would be on the exhaust side while the boost
on the inlet side would be small enough to live with 11.0-1
compression if the octane rating was high enough…
You could design a limp home mode retarding the ignition
sufficently to limp home on 92 octane… I mean heck the HE already
retards the ignition…

Yes superchargers would be better but he asked about turbo’s–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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26

In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Fri 25 Feb 2011:

Gary,
The 5.3’s lower pin height on a 6.0 engine would drop the piston
down the hole 1.75mm. since most are starting with 7.8 compression
ratio the resulting compression rato would be less than 2? I could
do the math if you wished…
One possibility would be the 5.3 HE piston on a 6.0 might yield a
workable compression ratio with the flathead… I can do the math
if there is sufficent interest…–
The original message included these comments:

Hm, interesting. So one could conceivably install the 7.8:1 pre-he pistons with the 6.0 crank by removing the 1 or 2 mm of the squish band that protrude above the deck, leaving a portion of the dish intact.
I wonder what CR that combination would yield with the HE and/or pre-HE head. Seems like that would the cheapest way to change the CR of the 6.0 without having a set of pistons specially made.

–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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27

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Thu 24 Feb 2011:

Well Ron
If you use the 5.3 HE piston on your 6.0 and put a flathead on
it you’d wind up with about a 5.4 something compression ratio.
Too low to be a low end power booster but you’d really make a lot
of power at High RPM if you used big enough turbo’s…
Running about 6 pounds of boost you’d want a compression no
higher than 8.5-1 to avoid detonation
Yes you could run mabe a couple of pounds of boost on an HE if
you had fuel octane high enough to handle it… (93 octane?)
But a couple of pounds of boost will be pretty trival and not get
the beast rolling quickly…
Superchagers have the same octane issues… but would be better to
get it rolling…
I suspect if you got a supercharger from Say a Buick V6 and ran
it slow enough you could possibly make the HE work without serious
problems… Put it where the big A/C comp is, pull the air pump.
(discard) you could put one of those small Sanyo pumps where the
air pump was…
That would give you an improvement in grunt out of the hole!–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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28

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Sun 27 Feb 2011:

Marek,
Depends on goals,
Fitting a pair of turbo’s if they are small enough isn’t tough…
First you don’t need power brakes on a Jaguar… Simply put the
right size calipers and master cylinder and even weak legged people
like myself can stop a Jag from 150 with no problem… Heck NASCAR
stops them from much higher speeds and the cars aren’t that much
lighter.
Start thinking out of the box here… For example that big A/C
pump doesn’t need to be there,If A/C is required use those small
sanyo pumps… Dump the giant lucas alternator. They make much
smaller alternators that will provide enough amperage, Dump the air
pump. As for the power stering pump the stock car boys have a small
unit that could be adapted to the back of the camshaft. So the only
thing hanging off the front of the engine is the small alternator
up top where the A/C unit used to be… (and maybe a small A/C
compressor)… see all that space now? that’s where the Turbo’s
live. Easy path to the intercooler Mounted where the front turn
signals used to live… Easy path to the intake side of the FI
manifold. You could also run them In front of the front tires
without a lot of shuffling…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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29

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Fri 25 Feb 2011:

Ron,
Yes Jaguar had some 14-1 compression HE’s running around… However
the pinging could be heard a long distance away running on 93
octane fuel…
That’s why they dropped it to 11.0-1. Compression is the magic
bullet for gas mileage… Octane is what keeps the bullet holstered.
If you could buy 100 octane at every street corner Go Ahead, turbo
a 11.0-1 HE engine and it might live as long as you keep the boost
down…
IN fact look at the advance/retard curve of a HE and tell me that
doesn’t hurt the power output
Dr Bolles swears he runs 16.0-1 compression ratio. You might ask
what his magic is…–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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30

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the pin height on the pre-he 5.3 piston is greater than the 6.0 piston? It should put you close to the deck, if not popping out.

Now with a HE head, the CR would be low, but um… less than 2? No.
With a flat head, the CR would be a bit high which is why I mentioned milling off part of the squish band.

-GaryOn Feb 28, 2011, at 8:45 AM, MGuar wrote:

In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Fri 25 Feb 2011:

Gary,
The 5.3’s lower pin height on a 6.0 engine would drop the piston
down the hole 1.75mm. since most are starting with 7.8 compression
ratio the resulting compression rato would be less than 2? I could
do the math if you wished…
One possibility would be the 5.3 HE piston on a 6.0 might yield a
workable compression ratio with the flathead… I can do the math
if there is sufficent interest…

The original message included these comments:

Hm, interesting. So one could conceivably install the 7.8:1 pre-he pistons with the 6.0 crank by removing the 1 or 2 mm of the squish band that protrude above the deck, leaving a portion of the dish intact.
I wonder what CR that combination would yield with the HE and/or pre-HE head. Seems like that would the cheapest way to change the CR of the 6.0 without having a set of pistons specially made.

–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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31

Gary Evans wrote:

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the pin height on the pre-he 5.3
piston is greater than the 6.0 piston? It should put you close to the
deck, if not popping out.

It’s no use pointing out stuff like that.

– Kirbert

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32

Huh?On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Kirbert wrote:

Gary Evans wrote:

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the pin height on the pre-he 5.3
piston is greater than the 6.0 piston? It should put you close to the
deck, if not popping out.

It’s no use pointing out stuff like that.

– Kirbert

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33

In reply to a message from Gary Evans sent Mon 28 Feb 2011:

Ron,
You’re correct, Longer rod = lower pin height…(assuming same
deck height Duhh , I’m sorry! I was so excited about the math that
I failed to stop to think…–
The original message included these comments:

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the pin height on the pre-he 5.3 piston is greater than the 6.0 piston? It should put you close to the deck, if not popping out.
Now with a HE head, the CR would be low, but um… less than 2? No.
With a flat head, the CR would be a bit high which is why I mentioned milling off part of the squish band.

–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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34

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Wed 2 Mar 2011:

just a bump to keep thread goin, im tryin to understand all
the different posts(to many ideas). hard to seperate fact from
fiction.

Ron–
The original message included these comments:

Ron,
You’re correct, Longer rod = lower pin height…(assuming same
deck height Duhh , I’m sorry! I was so excited about the math that

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the pin height on the pre-he 5.3 piston is greater than the 6.0 piston? It should put you close to the deck, if not popping out.
Now with a HE head, the CR would be low, but um… less than 2? No.
With a flat head, the CR would be a bit high which is why I mentioned milling off part of the squish band.

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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35

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sun 6 Mar 2011:

a quick update on plan to turbocharge a stock 6.0L V12.

use a stock 6.0,runs good, under 100K miles.

remove complete exhaust system from exhaust manifolds
back(all of it)(give it to KIRBY for the hedge row).

YES like the STS, they patented it but they didnt invent
it!

run 2.25 down pipes all the way back to rear area, where
mufflers used to be, going straight under the rear cage,
mount a GT35 performance turbo,hung on rubber donuts(any
good muff shop can do it) on each side,no mufflers,small
outlet pipes back beyond the car body.

run two cold pipes forward, to TBs at inlet manifold.no
ICs,

set up a EMS that you can adjust things, tuning is most
important, when you have positive pressure in inlet.gotta
get away from factory 6.0 ECU tuning, we aint tryin to save
the world here, just havin the FUN OF FREEDOM of choice.

E85 for fuel 100-105 Octane, or 50-50, 93 oct, and E85, we
have on ACTUAL dyno runs, got close to 75hp with a retune
from 93 going to E85, using turbo engines.

a simple small electric pump to push turbo drain oil back
to engine.

addition of a water/alcohol mixture injected at the turbo
inlet,NOT up front at engine inlets.

a n air filter mounted right on the turbo inlet(NOTE, do
not drive thru deep puddles), this aint an OFFROAD car.LOL–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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36

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

let me pickup where thread stopped!

things to keep in mind about turbo engines and compression
ratio. and controllin DETONATION

low compression makes for bad turbo LAG, hi comp. shortens
LAG period, to almost nonexsisting. so a 6.0 with E85, in my
opinion, can handle the ratio, because of the hi squish and
turbulence.
sizing turbo is important, but most turb manufacturers can
set you up very close to optimum, I say this because it will
be where most money is spent.

studying the HE cams vs. FH cams, the HEs are better for
pressurized inlets, wider LSAs and shorter overlap. again no
apart engine.

and I never said it was gonna be cheap, but if you dont
have to take the engine apart, money can be spent where it
will help make most improvment.

personally I think it would be a great project, and
learning experience, plus a lot of fun.

im sure I missed some small points, but if you do get into
it, simple LOGIC will move you along, you just might
surprise your self.–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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37

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

and last but not least,a 6.0 like this would be very smooth
runnin, good on fuel, make plenty of torque down low where car
would be a joy to drive.

and not haviing to rev the crap out of it, things would be
quieter.–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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38

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Mon 7 Mar 2011:

Ron,
The April issue of Hot Rod has a single (Chinese made) turbo
installed on a Chevy small block with 100,000 miles…
They did it for $2803.
326 cubic inches (5.3) (Stock HP 285) 588 ft. pounds of torque,
and 594 horsepower.
Me? I’d use the stock motor blow that one up to figure out
whatever you overlooked. Fix that and then put in the 6.0
I’d also go with twin smaller units. In part to save over $1000,
But mainly because it would be a more compact arrangement. Look at
how bulky a single turbo is. So buy used ones from a junkyard for
$75 each with intercoolers (they already have wastegates etc. in
them)
(It’s very easy to check used turbo’s to see if they’re still
good, Take a magic marker, mark one blade, give it a spin and see
where it stops. Then spin it a few more times and if it always
stops someplace differant you have a good one… A bad bearing
(about all that goes wrong that you can’t see) will stop near the
bad spot every time…
The reason for the used stock ones is durability. You’d be
surprised at how many turbo’s are in wrecked cars wiyth not a lot
of miles on them… If a Turbo isn’t shut down hot but allowed to
cool down for a minute* before shut off it’s capable of astonishing
mileage… It doesn’t have wear points…
*hot shut down cokes the oil and that’s what ruins turbos–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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39

In reply to a message from MGuar sent Wed 9 Mar 2011:

MG, I own and drive 3(three) turbocharged cars, been
playin with turbo engines for 30yrs.

now I dont know all there is,because things keep advancing,
but I do have some experience with turbos. I operated a
turbo rebilding company for 20yrs

and some of the BEST books on turbo systems, are already
out of date, in reference to turb systems.

OK case in point, local turb shop has a well known toyota
supra(93), inline 6, 3.4L, they run 10.5-1 comp ratio, at an
incredible 38psi boost,yes with race gas. no detonation, I
ask the secret, TUNING.

rear wheel HP, 1250hp at 9400rpm.

try and figure those numbers???

and YES, iknow quite a bit about the F1 turbo ERA.
another bit of info,they SUPPOSEDLY made 1200hp out of
1500cc,V6,turbo.

now rumor has it they actually could control the length of
time of detonation and used it to push the piston down.

HMM, VERY INTERESTING.

info that was good yesterday, dont win today.

THX RON–
The original message included these comments:

The April issue of Hot Rod has a single (Chinese made) turbo
They did it for $2803.
how bulky a single turbo is. So buy used ones from a junkyard for
$75 each with intercoolers (they already have wastegates etc. in
(It’s very easy to check used turbo’s to see if they’re still
good, Take a magic marker, mark one blade, give it a spin and see
where it stops. Then spin it a few more times and if it always
stops someplace differant you have a good one… A bad bearing
(about all that goes wrong that you can’t see) will stop near the
bad spot every time…
The reason for the used stock ones is durability. You’d be

–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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40

In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Wed 9 Mar 2011:

Good For you Ron,
And Sorry to preach to the choir (minister?)
I’m very new to turbo’s Oh I’ve read about them and driven a few
but my love was always superchargers… Nice old fashioned roots
blowers…
(I actually have a Jag XK motor (3.8) with a 250 cu.in Roots blower
on it) I like to play around with differant fuels in it… So far
the bravest I’ve been is 10% Nitromethane and 90% methanol…
I came to Turbo’s because it’s so cheap to add them compared to
Blowers… I can buy good used turbo’s with intercoolers for $75.
each… Add some tubing and install.
I built that to go chump car/Lemons racing untill the new rules
banned it. (Nothing to do with turbo’s) just banned the work I’d
already done on lightening up the car.
Now I’ve got a race car with no place to play with it… Yes, there
are always track day events. However for a serious racer that’s
like putting training wheels on a carbon fibre racing bike… (No
wheel to wheel stuff)
Same with Drag racing, a few passes to base line the car and
then what? However fast you go is how fast you can go untill you
make it faster… Now the Salt Flats promise to be a tad bit more
challenging with racing on slippery salt. However the record there
is so far out of grasp as to be unobtainable… Oh I could go for
some pretend class such as the worlds fastest Jagur XJ-S or
something… Yawn! But I’ve known some pretty good guys who have
gone for several decades and simply turned a whole bunch of money
into noise…
I’m a road racer, While a few have been successful over years
(mainly Porsches) they really aren’t allowed in Vintage racing.
SCCA et al. doesn’t have a class for inexpensive homemade things…
To have more than 300 horsepower on the streets simply risks
tickets, insurance, jail time, and possible loss of the car… More
than a few cops get their Jollies taking fast cars away from the
owners caught enjoying them…
So other than an academic exercise why do it? Where could you
play with such a toy? Honest! Just having it? Never using it to
the limits? The car sits in the shop unfinished. Looking for
someplace to be used… OH I can yank the turbo’s off and run it at
5-6 events But it sure would be fun to explore this turbo
stuff.–
MGuar
Wayzata Minnesota, United States
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