[v12-engine] V12 Injectors

Hi Everyone,
Can you tell me what injectors you are running in your v12s? I have
1lb or 450cc injectiors and that seems a little crazy, That would
mean at WOT you are burning nearly 6 litres, or 1.3 gallons a
minute.–
Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Nick

I’ve only got the standard low impedance HE injectors on all
4 my V12s. Don’t know what they are though ito flow rate.

There is no point in going with overly large injectors as it
only becomes more and more difficult as you go with larger
injectors to have consistent AFRs across all the cylinders
at short pulse widths such as at idle and lean cruise. This
would typically result in having a seriously rich (average)
and possibly lumpy idle as some cylinders over fuel and
others under fuel at idle.

I’ve not done a force-fed V12 but I recon there is enough
reserve capacity in the standard injectors to support quite
a bit of boost and still keep under 80% duty cycle on the
injectors.

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Hi Philip
I know and agree with you! I dont suppose you can give me your
injector model numbers please? I have resistors on mine to save the
megasquirt, I assume that is the same as yours?
I put a gallon in the Zonghini and it vanishes in minutes at tick
over, rev it up and it lasts seconds!–
The original message included these comments:

I’ve only got the standard low impedance HE injectors on all
4 my V12s. Don’t know what they are though ito flow rate.


Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Nick I understand the HE injectors are about 190cc. I have a number
0-280-150-105 but that needs to be verified.–
The original message included these comments:

I know and agree with you! I dont suppose you can give me your
injector model numbers please? I have resistors on mine to save the
megasquirt, I assume that is the same as yours?


Neville S1 XJ12, Megasquirt ECU
Christchurch, New Zealand
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from Nev.W sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Hi,

I concur with Neville. I had my HE injectors flow tested before
fitting to the Pre HE and the flow was around the 190 mark.

Cheers

John Reveley
77 Damiler Double Six
LingPlus G3 ECU
Christchurch New Zealand–
The original message included these comments:

Nick I understand the HE injectors are about 190cc. I have a number
0-280-150-105 but that needs to be verified.


Roleyrev
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Hi Nick

The Pre-HE should be 280cc/min at 3bar
The HE should be 190cc/min at 3bar
The latest Nippon Denso are 300cc/min at 3bar(and high Z)

Your 450cc/min are good for over 900hp on petrol and 80% duty cycle.

Dont see any reason to change sound more like your tuning is out of
range, whats your A/F ratio or Lambda?

BR//Tobmag–
tobmag
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Almost all injectors are rated at 3 Bar pressure at a static rate
(full open pintle) at 60 second flow rates.

Using N-heptane to flow the injectors, the following is what I
consistently get, using the parameters above.

Pre HE injector appx 460 cc 0280150035
HE injector 212 cc 0280150161/2

Flow rates with US EPS test emission fuel would be appx 3.5% higher.

SD Faircloth
www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com–
The original message included these comments:

Can you tell me what injectors you are running in your v12s? I have


www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com
Jacksonville, Florida, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Sun 12 Feb 2012:

Yep, I also have 0 280 150 161 but I also have 162’s here
and there. I BELIEVE that the 162 is the same as 161
except that it comes with a longer piece of hose as needed
for the injectors at the end of the fuel rail.

Nick, current limit resistors are perfect for a racing
engine but is not ideal for a road car (where you desire to
have accurate fuel control at partial throttle for the sake
of running leanish mixtures (14.7 - 16 AFR).

Let me explain:
If you should take 12 x 161 injectors and put them on a flow
bench and run them at 2ms pulsewidths, you will notice a
fairly different amount of fuel coming from them. The reason
for this is that even though they receive exactly the same
pulse from the ECU, they don’t all open their pintles
equally fast. This is called the opening time of the
injector. Let say that some may require 1.1ms to open and
others may require 0.9ms to open. This means that the 1.1ms
injector is open for 0.9ms and the other one is open for
1.1ms. 0.9ms open time is 19% less fuel than 1.1ms open
time!!! This produces huge differences in AFRs from cylinder
to cylinder!

When you run those exact same two injectors with current
limit resistors, you will find that the openING times (of
all the injectors) increase (quite a bit)…

Now here comes the crunch:

The PERCENTAGE DIFFERENCE in the actual OPEN time BETWEEN
the injectors also INCREASE meaning the DIFFERENCE in the
amount of fuel being delivered by the injectors AT SMALL
PULSEWIDTHS becomes QUITE LARGE. This means that different
cylinders are producing very different AFRs due, in large,
to these differences in fuel supply that exist AT SMALL
PULSEWIDTHS (such as needed at idle and at low manifold
pressures (such as from 50kpa and below).

This is why, for low impedance injectors, it is better to
implement pulsewidth modulation as offered by Megasquirt or
use Peak and hold circuitry or use the method that the JAG
ECU used where one transistor switches the injector hard to
ground until it is open and then that transistor switches
off and another transistor now only holds the injector open
through a current limit resistor. (This tells me that
JAg/Lucas must have known about this issue with differences
in fuel supply due to differences in injector openING times
and came up with a very good solution)

In summary, for a race car where the engine is either at
full power and running rich (long pulsewidths where
differences in the openING times don’t matter much), using
current limit resistors is OK, but for a road car where we
want both max power at full throttle AND the best possible
economy at partial throttle, the use of current limit
resistors will most likely prove it impossible to achieve
lean mixtures. Been there, done that on my XJS.

Clear as mud?

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Mon 13 Feb 2012:

Hi Philip
Thank you, I need to get some high impedance injectors, what you
are saying makes sence, I am running ballast resistors it runs
well, but its so thirsty. I also struggle to get 14.7 AFR. I am
assuming that the engine might have been choked through my
turbos/intercoolers etc… hence the new plenums.

I have a spreadsheet with all the bosch injectors, impedance and
flow, also I found this calculator, it seems quite good and seems
to suggest that for 500 hp, with twin T3/4 turbos I should have 375
cc/min injectors, is that a good place to start?

http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php--
The original message included these comments:

Clear as mud?


Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Mon 13 Feb 2012:

‘‘I also struggle to get 14.7 AFR. I am assuming that the
engine might have been choked through my turbos/intercoolers
etc.’’

Nick that might have been the case but you were running
SERIOUSLY large injectors(which would require exceedingly
small pulsewidths at idle and low MAP areas combined with
resistors, so you were compounding your issues.

I recon it is MUCH more likely that you were running into
the opening time issue in a big way on your injectors by
virtue of the fact that you were struggling to get 14.7.

I get 328cc injectors for 500hp, 0.6, 12, 0.8. I would tend
to select a slightly lower value of injector flow than
larger for the sake of better control at low MAP values.
You can rather sneak your duty cycle into the high 80’s if
need be. The total time they will spend in those duty cycle
areas is very little overall and even so, you CAN run them
at 100% indefinitely, the injector will not fail under these
conditions. Even low-Z can be run at 100% PROVIDED they are
controlled correctly. The issue is that now you have no
fuel control any more and if they do not supply enough fuel
under these conditions, you may get other engine issues like
burnt valves etc.

Best regards
Philip–
My website: www.jaguardiy.net
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from jagwit sent Mon 13 Feb 2012:

Hi all!

Let me see if I have this right (or if I’m totally screwed up)?

I’m getting ready to install MS2 Extra and dual EDIS-6 onto
a '96 6.0. The OE injectors are Nippondenso (p/n
195500-2840) and I ‘‘believe’’ that they cross to a Bosch
0-280-155-007 with the following specs:

lbs/hr: 18.25
cc/min: 191.8
PSI: 43.53
BAR: 3.0
Duty Cycle of: 36.9 (@80% and assuming 350-400HP/.42 BSFC)
LOW-impedance.

For ease of integration into the MS2 Extra system I believe
that I should use high-Z injectors to avoid having to wire
in a bunch of resistors/diodes or other components (Philip
please correct me if I’m wrong?).

My question is: If I find a comparable injector with the
same specs as the Nippondenso’s (flow, PSI, BAR, and percent
duty cycle at the same BSFC) that will physically fit,
though in HIGH-Z, can I use them or does the impedance
change (Low to High) throw off the equation?

Thanks in advance and it’s really great to see everyone again!

Chad–
1995 XJR & 1984 XJS Coupe,
San Diego/California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from BlownKitty sent Tue 14 Feb 2012:

Hi Chad.

I have a set of ND injectors from a -95 XJ12 in my car and they are
high Z!!! Just to wire them in to the MS2

I also had them tested but cant remeber if they gave 290cc at 3bar
or 190cc. Actually 190cc would be on the limit to give fuel for the
original 330hp

Most amazing was that all 12 injector where within 1% in flow!

BR//Tobmag–
tobmag
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from tobmag sent Tue 14 Feb 2012:

Thanks Tob!

I thought that the Denso’s were low (I should have measured
them).

That helps A LOT!!

CHEERS!

Chad–
The original message included these comments:

I have a set of ND injectors from a -95 XJ12 in my car and they are
high Z!!! Just to wire them in to the MS2


1995 XJR & 1984 XJS Coupe,
San Diego/California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from BlownKitty sent Tue 14 Feb 2012:

I am thinking of running 2 XJ6 fuel rails in my new plenums, this
meqans I can use virtually any 0280 150 series injector, as I
believe the XJ6 has pushin injectors as opposed to the v12’s tube
connected injectors. I might be completely wrong though…–
Regards Nick - Twin turbo 5.3l V12 mid engined Zonda
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from nicktruman sent Tue 14 Feb 2012:

Dear Nick,
It sounds like you want to fit the 6litre fuel rail to your
manifolds. Look in the xjs picture archives to see how the Bosch
injectors fit in (as you describe) and eliminate the small rubber
hoses from the earlier U-shaped fuel rail.

I have a spare set of 6l manifolds with integral fuel rail if you
want to contact me offlist.

kind regards
Marek–
MarekH
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

In reply to a message from MarekH sent Wed 15 Feb 2012:

I did things differentfor fuel rails , made from aluminum bar
stock, bathroom hand rails.

should come up in my photo albums!

I think??–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !

Hi SD Faircloth
I note that you give the flow rate for 035 injectors at 460cc/min at 43.5

What flow do you expect at 29psi? (ie the ‘book’ regulator setting)

375 cc @ 29 psi. 80% duty cycle. SD Faircloth

I need to revise that data. Flow is at 100% duty cycle…full open. SD Faircloth

Thanks
I’m scratching my head as two sources (Roger Bywater) and ‘Dr D-Jet’ refer to bosch data at 318cc/min at 2 bar