[v12-engine] XJ220 who makes the desisions

do you remember the TV show in 1993,

FAST MASTERS, wikipedia Jaguar XJ220 demolition derby.

rumors were that Ford couldnt sell any,so they crashed them to
reduce the numbers available, hoping for a more rare car, and keep
prices up!

who makes these type of decisions?–
Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sun 14 Dec 2014:

bean counters/corporate management,of course!
anything else I would have to state on the matter would be
completely rude.
=dok=–
thewytchdoktor=v12 fun!/94 xjs 6 litre/ s=k.log w
Winchester Virginia, United States
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bean counters/corporate management,of course!
anything else I would have to state on the matter would be
completely rude.

The root of the problem, of course, was that the XJ220 was originally
touted as a NA V12 supercar. That was what the market wanted big
time, so pre-orders came pouring in. Then the design was switched to
a turbo V6, which nobody was interested in regardless of performance.
Jaguar apparently thought it wouldn’t adversely affect sales and
kept right on producing a car nobody wanted.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 15 Dec 2014 at 7:30, wytchdoktor1 wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 15 Dec 2014:

all well and good ,but what they did to those cars,is a real
shame!

crashing them to get rid of them, some ending up in the crusher
machine!

hell, if I got my hands on one id put a V12 into it, seeing as
they have little value anyway.–
The original message included these comments:

The root of the problem, of course, was that the XJ220 was originally
touted as a NA V12 supercar. That was what the market wanted big
time, so pre-orders came pouring in. Then the design was switched to
a turbo V6, which nobody was interested in regardless of performance.
Jaguar apparently thought it wouldn’t adversely affect sales and
kept right on producing a car nobody wanted.


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 15 Dec 2014:

Yep…And, I don’t quite understand how a judge would rule
in favor of Jaguar when legal action was taken against them
for changing the specifications, after the contracts were
signed.

‘‘Jaguar produced evidence clearly demonstrating that the
vehicle specification shown in the contract matched the
vehicle that was delivered, and the presiding judge, John
Donaldson, quickly ruled in Jaguar’s favor’’

Really? How did a Turbo V6 become a V-12? That’s what the
buyers signed up for. I don’t care that the Turbo V6 may
have had the same power output. The sound would be
different, the power/torque curve would be different. The
buyers who wanted to opt out should have been allowed to
without any financial obligation.–
The original message included these comments:

The root of the problem, of course, was that the XJ220 was originally
touted as a NA V12 supercar. That was what the market wanted big
time, so pre-orders came pouring in. Then the design was switched to
a turbo V6, which nobody was interested in regardless of performance.
Jaguar apparently thought it wouldn’t adversely affect sales and
kept right on producing a car nobody wanted.
– Kirbert


matt63
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hell, if I got my hands on one id put a V12 into it, seeing as
they have little value anyway.

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t fit. I think the original V12-powered
design was significantly longer.

Prior to the intro of the XJ220, Jaguar was having tremendous success
in racing, running both turbo V6 and NA V12 cars. IIRC, the NA V12’s
were used for the longer endurance events because the engine had been
developed to the point where it was unbeatable. Eventually they had
to come up with fuel economy regulations to drive it from the
winner’s circle.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 15 Dec 2014 at 15:38, Ronbros wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 16 Dec 2014:

I seem to remember a lister who fitted a v12 to a Miata!
I guess it’s not that it won’t fit but about wanting to
make it fit:)–
The original message included these comments:

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t fit. I think the original V12-powered
design was significantly longer.


Haydn Charlton 84 v12 5.3 xj-s coupe
launceston tasmania, Australia
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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 16 Dec 2014:

been reading about this, with the V6 turbo engine, it turns
out it was a Rover engine, 6R4 metro, the history says it was
originally a 1962 GM aluminum 215 cu.in. V8, rover bought
rights to the manufacture it along with machineries,from good
old GM.

they B/L/rover made the deal with Buick/GM.

the basic engine was also used in the Oldsmobile F-85 cars and
some were the 1st a mass produced Turbocharged car(and the ist
car to use water/alcohol injection system 1962).

BUT( and this is a big history), the 1st GM aluminum 215
cu.in. was a concept car in 1951, GM Le Sabre concept(wiki )!

engine designed in the late 1940s, it was supercharged, and it
also used an alcohol injection system.

talk about being ahead of the curve,GM is number 1, Jag would
never afforded R&D for transmission and thru the years many
other components,(power steering pumps,Dana 44 rear(with power
lok).

my car has a modded posi with 1959 Corvette friction plates in
it,(thank to a photographic memory), they fit in perfect,and
gives a nice tight limited slip, for driving sideways,and
smoking the tires!

and to add to the history, XJ220 may not have had the metro
6R4 V6 turbo if Thom W.TWR hadnt had major influence with Jag,
and just happen to have the engines already made up!!

so the XJ220 actually has something in common with a 1951 GM
car.

what long strange journey this has been!–
The original message included these comments:

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t fit. I think the original V12-powered
design was significantly longer.
Prior to the intro of the XJ220, Jaguar was having tremendous success
in racing, running both turbo V6 and NA V12 cars. IIRC, the NA V12’s
were used for the longer endurance events because the engine had been


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Sun 14 Dec 2014:

Ron,
Are saying the jag v6 in the 220 is derived from the GM
aluminum v8? I had the engine in my Buick of days gone by
and have it in my Triumph TR8 as well. I had no idea it
was developed into a six if that is your info.–
Jeff 84XJS, 74 e-type OTS
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The “Rover” V8 was a sweet engine. My brother installed one in his Land
Rover. Also used on the Leyland P76 (Saloon) down under. Compact and light
weight.

Must have morphed into a Leyland Metro (city car/hatch back) that was then
morphed into a rally car.

The 6R4 was developed for group B rallying, as I recall. I think TWR had
been doing the development. But Gp B was canned. So … he had the engines
just sitting there. It is also a very highly stressed engine. I seem to
recall you needed to service the cam gear every few thousand kms.

There is a certain ironic British humour that likes to boast of a humble
origin turned into a superstar.

But anyone who casts doubt on the value of an XJ220 should try buying one.
The thing that let them down for me was not the engine so much as the
instrumentation. Borrowed from a Ford family sedan, I assume. Sacrilege in a
super car.

A lot of those cars also had rubber bladder fuel tanks which apparently
don’t take kindly to being museum pieces. They need to be frequently
replaced.

In fact I have a book on it somewhere …

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Ford instruments? The main binnacle is facelift XJS without the wood veneer. I also recognize that turn signal switch.

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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Thu 18 Dec 2014:

The ‘‘hacked’’ Buick/Rover V8 in a metro 6R4 was a ONE OFF
only. The actual engine used in the homologation cars was
new: designed by David Wood with a capacity of 2.5 litres,
4 valves per cylinder & belt driven double overhead cam
shafts per bank - different by a country mile from the
Buick/Rover V8.

The aluminium Buick/Rover V8 is/was a very popular engine
in the UK: stretched in capacity up to 5 litres in some
variants from 3.5 litres. Over the years I’ve had an MG, a
TVR, a land rover & a Range Rover all with this engine.

Rgds.

Andy.–
The original message included these comments:

out it was a Rover engine, 6R4 metro, the history says it was
originally a 1962 GM aluminum 215 cu.in. V8, rover bought


1st reg. 01/08/1993 6.0ltr 2+2 convertible SAJJNAFS3ER188666
Lancashire, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from John sent Thu 18 Dec 2014:

The facelift XJS had Ford column stalks.–
The original message included these comments:

Ford instruments? The main binnacle is facelift XJS without the wood veneer. I also recognize that turn signal switch.


HE V12
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…with the V6 turbo engine, it turns
out it was a Rover engine, 6R4 metro, the history says it was
originally a 1962 GM aluminum 215 cu.in. V8, rover bought
rights to the manufacture it along with machineries,from good
old GM.

That’s true about Rover buying the 215 V8 from Buick, but how that
became the V6 is a stretch. Yeah, GM claimed that they designed V6’s
by just slicing two cylinders off a V8, but that was poetic license –
there’s a LOT more to it than that. And I highly doubt that V6
shared much at all with the Buick V8. In fact, I’d kinda doubt if it
was pushrod.

– Kirbert

Visit the Jag Lovers homepage at http://www.jag-lovers.org for exciting services and resources including Photo Albums, Event Diary / Calendar, On Line Books and more !On 18 Dec 2014 at 13:27, Ronbros wrote:

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 19 Dec 2014:

The ubiquitous GM/Buick V6 family does have roots in the old 215
V8. If you look at both engines side by side the family resemblence
is visible but you can visit any number of engine history web pages
and see it in writing. Perhaps saying it was nothing more then
slicing two cylinders off is an over-simplification.

The resulting V6 started as a 198 and went on for decades in
different displacements (225, 231, 252, 3800 etc) , odd-fire and
even-fire configurations, FWD and RWD applications, etc etc.

The later Buick V8s (300, 340, 350) still had 215 ‘architecture’
as well.

None of this has anything to do with the XJ220, thoough!

Cheers
DD–
The original message included these comments:

That’s true about Rover buying the 215 V8 from Buick, but how that
became the V6 is a stretch. Yeah, GM claimed that they designed V6’s
by just slicing two cylinders off a V8, but that was poetic license –


Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington, United States
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In reply to a message from Andy B B sent Thu 18 Dec 2014:

Is there a tie-in between Renault and the David Wood V6?

I’m 99% positive the V6 used in the XJ220 has some sort of Renault
relationship but the history and references that I’ve found are
murky.

Cheers
DD–
The original message included these comments:

only. The actual engine used in the homologation cars was
new: designed by David Wood with a capacity of 2.5 litres,
4 valves per cylinder & belt driven double overhead cam
shafts per bank - different by a country mile from the
Buick/Rover V8.


Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington, United States
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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Fri 19 Dec 2014:

so much conjecture , but is it possible that XJ220 V6 has any
relation to the Renault V6 used in the DeLoren!

this whole thing is getting weird.

chopping two cylinders from a V8 is getting more popular, I read
where Jag used a V8 casting to make a V6, in some recent cars!

seems they had the outer V8 molds and only put 6 bores into it!

dont know what to make of that!–
The original message included these comments:

Is there a tie-in between Renault and the David Wood V6?
I’m 99% positive the V6 used in the XJ220 has some sort of Renault
relationship but the history and references that I’ve found are
murky.


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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In reply to a message from Ronbros sent Fri 19 Dec 2014:

I have been researching this V8s into V6!

seems as tho the new F-type AJ126 jag V6 was/is the AJ133 V8
block(same outer molds), but redone inside molds to have 6
bores cast into it, should be strong and take to
turbo/supercharging very well!

pix I seen show big cooling jackets with so much room around
the bores,perfect for strength and cooling,(always a problem
with force feeding the air).

pix exterior look just like the AJ133 block,mounts ,water
pump, block to transmission,ETC.

odd looking crankshaft has long rear end to it,just where the
4th cylinders could be!

now back to the GM 215 cu.in. engine, it was originally
designed in the late 1940s, for a concept car for chief design
engineer for General motors Harley Earl, the Buick/Rover has
its roots in the engine released in the (GENERAL MOTORS LE
SABRE 1951). wikipedia! check it out ,quite interesting car.

and also the Buick V6s has a strong resmbelence to the 215
block, check OLDS JETFIRE FAQ. GM did the same alterations to
the 215 V8, cast it into a V6 on the inside, same outside,so
mounts int he same place as V8,or vice.versa.–
The original message included these comments:

so much conjecture , but is it possible that XJ220 V6 has any
relation to the Renault V6 used in the DeLoren!
chopping two cylinders from a V8 is getting more popular, I read
where Jag used a V8 casting to make a V6, in some recent cars!
seems they had the outer V8 molds and only put 6 bores into it!


Ronbros
daytona fl. / Austin TX., United States
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