V12 non running check list

Well, here goes.
I started it on a Google Drive document, temporarily cut and pasted to here. That document can be shared and edited by other parties, very important since my knowledge is limited. I have a 1979 coupe bought in 1984 which I ran for 10 years stock standard before modifying with a Motec aftermarket EFI system.
Memories of the pre HE system are now hazy. My other car is a 1988 Lucas, so I have no hands on experience of Marelli cars, nor any experience with facelift and 6L cars.
For this reason I hope those with more knowledge will help to add and edit the check list.

Kirbert’s book on the XJS is well known by us, but perhaps not by those who have a rush of blood to the head and buy a non running XJS purely on a whim. Bad choice of course, but we all suffer from whims at times. The “Book” is around 700 pages and has just about everything there is to know about the XJS. It has an index and page numbers so the plan is to refer to that information as a supplement to the check list on a “needs only” basis. Ideally anybody even remotely thinking of buying an XJS, running or not running, would consult the book first. It does take a while to get through the Book and absorb the details.
Chances are that does not happen hence the desperate pleas for help we can find on this forum.

The check list is for the first step: You buy a non running V12 XJS. You at least want to get the engine cranking and firing to make sure it is viable. Later on you work your way through the many possible big or little gremlins to get the whole car shipshape. That is when you should read the Book, all of it.

The cut and paste is below. You will note the information is not 100% accurate at this stage.
I have concentrated more on the format. The check items :white_large_square: I think should be 2 to 3 pages long.
It has to be manageable by somebody who might be in a hurry and has a lot of previous experience fixing engines. That person will have little need to chase up supplementary information.
Others will welcome copious references to the Book, diagrams and photos as they work through the list.

Nothing is set in stone. Feel free to comment and suggest. Next stage is to share the Google Drive document for more work.


DON’T: Probably a bit late, but hopefully you read this before you buy a non running XJS. They come in various conditions.
a) Neat looking car, good body and interior, just one day the engine stopped and owner or mechanic cannot fix it. Could be a simple fix for a DIY or a mechanic with V12 experience and this forum to help.
b) Ditto, but this time it is serious. Overheated and dropped valve seat, engine bay fire and so on. Fixable for sure by DIY at moderate cost but expensive if you pay a mechanic.
c) Crappy looking car, not well cared for, strictly for a masochist. Just don’t, even for a DIY can be a money pit.

NOTE WELL: There is a decision point about when to keep going with time and money, or when to give up. Firstly the general condition of the body and interior makes a big difference to that point.
If they are both good it is worth going further to fix up the engine. Worst case an engine can always be rebuilt or a second hand one found and you will end up with a car you will like.
If the body and interior are poor you might not want to sink a lot of time and money into it. Better to save that money plus some more and buy a better car.

V12 CHECK LIST: The idea is to at least get the engine cranking and firing.
This is mostly intended for a new owner dealing with a non running V12 car. The idea is to check the known weak points before trying to start the car. Temporary fixes can be made and once the engine is running reasonably well permanent repairs/modifications are advised.
This check list can avoid damage, frustration, wasted effort and buying unnecessary parts.
The check list follows with items to check marked by a :white_large_square:. Tick it off when checked.
Where there is more detailed information and photos at the end of the list it is noted as (#1) etc.
There is a downloadable “Book” created by Kirbert which has many pages of information on the XJS.
Where it is helpful reference will be made to this book for detailed information.

:white_large_square: The engine bay is probably dirty. Cleaning it up so all the wiring and components are easily visible is time well spent. Especially clean out the valley. (#1)
Check the oil and coolant levels, they should be reasonable. If the oil looks dirty and suspect best change it before it can cause more damage. At this stage spend the minimum until it looks like the engine will crank and be worth persevering with.

:white_large_square: Identify which version of 5.3L V12 you have: Pre HE. HE Lucas ignition. HE Marelli ignition.
Later face lift cars are 6.0L. (#2)

:white_large_square: Get familiar with all the components needed to make the engine run. See diagrams (#3)

To get the engine ready for cranking check the following items:

:white_large_square: There are a number of ground points in the wiring. Black wires are from the negative ( ground ) side of the battery and must be checked/cleaned where they ground to the chassis or engine.
There is a flexible ground strap from engine to chassis close to the oil filter, very important.

:white_large_square: There are lots of plugs and sockets in the engine bay wiring. Not essential right now but a good idea to pull them apart, spray with something like WD40 ( there are better sprays for this ) and reconnect. Note the white rubber bullet connectors favoured by Lucas can be very hard to pull apart but there are few reports of these being a problem. The black plugs on the injectors and other sensors are more likely a problem.

:white_large_square: Remove spark plugs and check condition. Pre HE should have 35thou gap, HE a 25thou gap.

:white_large_square: Verify the firing order of the ignition leads.(#4). Check they have good connections to cap, plugs and coil. If in poor condition they should allow the engine to fire, but perhaps not on all cylinders.

:white_large_square: The HE ignition amplifier is mounted on the B bank inlet manifold. They can fail but are easily fixed. There is a co-ax or shielded white wire from amplifier to ECU to initiate injector pulses. Nearly always shorts to the shield and needs fixing. (#5)

Lucas ignition section: ( Skip if you have Marelli )
:white_large_square: Remove the dizzy cap. Check it for any damage and a functional carbon brush.
Later cars have a nipple in the cap for connecting a breather hose.
The spring loaded advance mechanism can be stuck, it should rotate freely. A bit of oil helps.
The springs in the mechanism may stretch, will not stop engine running but will affect timing.
Check the condition of the vacuum capsule. (#6)

:white_large_square: Pre HE has a bracket with 2 reed switches to initiate injector pulses, sometimes replaced with solid state switches. The pre HE ignition plck up uses a plastic wheel with 12 small bar magnets. Check the gap between magnets and the coil, should be ? thou.

:white_large_square: Pre HE used Lucas ignition amplifier mounted in the valley, later above the radiator.
Known to fail, often replaced with aftermarket types. One update was Crane Cams amplifier kit which included a 12 slot wheel and optical switch for the dizzy.

:white_large_square: The HE pick up uses a 12 lobe star wheel. Check gap between lobe and coil, should be ? thou.

Marelli ignition section:
:white_large_square:

:white_large_square: Verify the firing order of the ignition leads.

:white_large_square: Marelli cars have sensors ( pick up coils ) on the front of the crankshaft and the flywheel.
Check they have the specified gap ?. They are prone to fail. Check the resistance which should be ? ohm.

Fuel injection section:
:white_large_square: Injector wiring in the valley. Often in poor condition with broken insulation and exposed copper. Temporary fix is to cover the copper with insulation tape. Avoid shorts across wires or to engine.
Later rebuild the harness or buy a new one.

:white_large_square: Injector fuel hoses are known to fail and cause engine fires. Check carefully and if there is any doubt replace them. Once the engine is running replace them anyway unless obviously fine.

:white_large_square: Various items sending signals to the ECU that need checking.
A vacuum hose from the middle of the rear crossover tube to the ECU.
The coolant temperature sensor should be about ?ohm. Critical to start the engine.
Air temperature sensor also ?ohm, but not so critical.
Throttle position switch(TPS). Can be a problem, see (#7)

:white_large_square: The throttle movement on both sides should be checked. The rubber bushes in the linkage often crumble, does not stop the engine but can cause rough running.

:white_large_square: In the trunk there is a small tank under the battery. This is almost sure to be full of crap and a plugged up filter. A constant source of trouble, remove and clean.

Other things:
:white_large_square: Check the belts on the front of the engine. Will not prevent cranking but if slack or missing the engine gets overheated. The fan has a viscous clutch, rotate by hand and you should feel resistance.

:white_large_square: Check battery condition and connections to battery terminals.
Check ground cable from battery to the bolt on the chassis. Use trickle charger.

:white_large_square: If the car has not been running for more than a few months chances are the fuel will be compromised. Drain and refill with high octane fuel.

5 Likes

Richard - your listing is a very good starting reference - as you stated, hopefully others will chime in with bits of information to add - I am not near my manuals, so can not offer any exact information, but will try to gather some information to send to you - again, very impressive that you have taken the time to write this - in my thinking, this post will be a very valuable resource as a prerequisite to new prospective owners, as long as they remember to also read Kirby’s “Experience in a Book” - Tex.

Coolant Temperature Sensor - CTS

Temperature vs. Resistance
0 C 32F 5.9 kohms
10C 50F 3.7 kohms
20C 68F 2.5 kohms
30C 86F 1.7 kohms
40C 105F 1.18 kohms
50C 122F 840 ohms
60C 140F 600 ohms
70C 158F 435 ohms
80C 176F 325 ohms
90C 194F 250 ohms
.

AIR Temperature Sensor

Temp 'C/'F - Pre-HE HE
-10/14 - 960 9100-9300
0/32 - 640 5700-5900
10/50 - 435 3764
20/68 - 300 2400-2600
30/86 - 210 1698
40/104 - 150 1100-1300
50/122 - 180 833
60/140 - 158 500-700

1 Like

A very valuable resource indeed Richard.

Those aren’t magnets. They’re just little pieces of iron.

So the buyer shows up with this list, seller looks it over and decides not to sell the car!

1 Like

A Noid light is an excellent, cheap, and very simple test to check if the injectors are getting a signal. If not, further investigation is required. SD Faircloth

3 Likes

injectors of a non running V12 will need some ultrasonic cleaning to free them from old fuel gunk

a simple stethoscope will help non end to check them in situ especially when they “almost” fire

One thing to add to non-running…Make sure there is plenty of gas in the tank! The gauge can be suspect, and a poorly running V12 guzzles it down. Two gallons did not last long for me once i got it running. Thought i had another non-starter, but nope…running on empty.

My latest experience…
Last week I tried to start my 86 HE V12 after a hole year, due to my body restoration project, working perfectly when parked.
Nada nesuto niente… engine would crank with a puff here and there.
After 15mn of cranking, a smoking starter and a depleted battery, long story short was stuck injectors. Exercising them with 12v solved the problem and it started right up.

3 Likes

Richard, I am thinking that if the person has already purchased the car, they need the books.
You don’t have to read them cover to cover (although Kirby’s book is quite readable) so much can be figured out by identifying a mystery part in the ROM or more often parts book, then searching Kirby’s book for that term.

Maybe these links can be in the intro of the checklist. My .02.

My guess is owners of non running cars are only too glad to move them on to somebody else.
They are probably well and truly exasperated, not likely to have second thoughts about a sale.

Thanks to forum members for adding feedback and information.
I have added to the Google doc but I will not post it again until it is knocked into an almost final shape.
My feeling is that the V12 check list should help a newbie get a V12 ready before trying to crank it.
Hopefully it does fire up.
The V12 check list only deals with the things it is wise to check before even cranking an engine for the first time.
Well, what next if it doesn’t fire up?

That needs a more detailed list that covers all those items affecting an engine that does not start or does not run well.

My time is limited so for the V12 check list I would appreciate some help

This is my 1988 convertible Lucas engine. Sharp eyes will see it has no cruise control (never use it ) and the PO replaced the injector hoses and added hose clamps. Otherwise it is stock standard - I think.

  1. I would appreciate somebody supplying similar photos of a pre HE, a Marelli 5.3 and a 6L.
    As we all know, non running cars are taken over by new owners not even sure exactly what engine they have.

  2. Anybody who can supply line drawings or photos with identification of all the things on the 4 types of V12. I could go hunting for this info, I have seen it around, but time is a problem.
    I do have one for the pre HE in the Leyland ROM I bought in 1984, but maybe there is a better one.

  3. I will find time to read through the Book again and refer to sections which are helpful. I doubt many newbies read the book before hitting the starter button. More likely they read the Book after the engine refuses to fire, or it fires with limitations.

  4. I have never had need to investigate the various vacuum operated switches on my HE car.
    Are there any of these that if faulty would stop the engine firing up ?

1 Like

Still working on it.
Spent time with the BOOK but failed to find following.
Replies welcome.

  1. For Marelli dizzy cap which terminal in the dizzy cap is for the A bank plugs.
    The centre one or the offset one ?
    Are there markings on the cap to identify which of the 12 spark leads goes where ?

  2. Marelli car crankshaft pick up sensor. What is gap, what is resistance ?

  3. Marelli car flywheel pick up sensor. What is gap, what is resistance ?

  4. I found a line drawing of the pre HE engine with component identification.
    I also found one for an HE engine, but it shows the coolant sensor on the A bank.
    I think that A bank one is for the temp gauge, the coolant one on B bank.
    Just like the wiring diagrams and vacuum hose diagrams there can be many variations hard to match to your particular car.
    A better HE drawing would be useful.

Richard,
Thank you for your work on this. I am certain that it will be of great value once complete. I can help immediately with #1, and I have attached a picture of an OEM Marelli distributor cap showing “Magneti Marelli” cast into the plastic.


The center post goes to the A coil and the offset post goes to the B coil. The OEM Marelli caps have all of the posts labeled. Someone else will have to address the aftermarket distributor caps.
I may be able to help with other answers later.

Paul

1 Like

#3:
.019-.042”.
About 700 ohms. If you measure about 700, your sensor might be good. If you measure vastly different, it is probably bad. Not a definitive test.

PN for crank and flywheel sensors is the same. Ohms for #2 is same answer. Not sure about gap. Need to look up.

Richard,
Page 14 of Supplement C of the Jaguar XJ-S ROM, has answers to #2 and #3. The Crankshft Position Sensor and Flywheel Sensor both have an air gap of 0.018-0.042 in. They are the exact same part.
“The Sensor signal can only be checked using an oscilloscope.” A resistance test is meaningless. The ROM shows the waveform of properly functioning sensors.

Paul

1 Like

Thanks for all the feedback.
I have just about everything needed for a newbie to check over a non running 5.3L V12 before attempting a start. This will not be a comprehensive troubleshooting guide aimed at debugging all the things that can be wrong with a running engine.
The 6.0L V12 is a mystery to me. I guess there will be check items common with the 5.3L, and some that will be unique to the 6.0L.
I will try this weekend to stitch it all together and convert to a pdf file.
Not sure of the procedure to store it on the Jag-lovers website, anybody have an idea ? It could be stored together with Aristides’ pdf version of Kirbert’s book with the index lining up with the page numbers.

Thanks Paul for the Marelli cap photo. That is a neat touch to have all the spark plug leads moulded in the cap. Do the aftermarket versions also have that ?

I have a question, I hope you can help me. My name is Jeff Carlson and I reside in Mexico city, Mexico were I own a shop that caters to jaguars. In the shop I have a 1977 xjs coupe. During the last year I have done almost everything under the sun to get the car in working order. This includes changing injectors, cables, sparkplugs, both computers, map valve (imposible to find), cleaning and fixing complete fuel system including new hoses, cold tempeture sensor, air tempeture sensor, complete cooling system overhaul including new hose, new gasoline hoses al around, vacuum lines. The only thing I did not do was a complete rebuild of the distributor as I was getting the correct voltage and detonation to the injectors. I finally got the car in perfect working order. It ran like a clock.
The car sat for two weeks, when I went to start it up, the problems out of the blue started again. I’m only getting the motor to run on six cylinders. On bank A the two cylinders in front and the last one to the rear are not firing. On bank B the two cylinders from the back (firewall towards the front) and the very last piston in the front are not firing. My logic dictates that this is an electrical failure,. However, everything I did to correct does nothing to improve or eliminate the problem.
As usual I’m pulling my hair, and am dumbfounded. Has anybody had a similar proplem, that could shed some insight as to what I should be looking for or doing. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Jeff Carlson

Sounds like the reed switch in the distributor is failing or failed. Look for info on Jaguar Lucas Opus distributors.