This seller on ebay is claiming it is potentially a Series 3 competition wire wheel. Never heard of that before. It is possible?
I have had a Series 3 since new, and I have never heard of such a thing. Even in vintage racing, with E’s or any other sports car of that era, last thing I would use is ANY wire wheel, as , of course, any solid wheel, even the Jag steel wheel, would be mush safer. Might look nice, if such a wire wheel exits, but I would use only for static display. John
Makes sense…just wondering where this particular wheel may have come from.
Gee, Ferrari, Cobra, and Aston Martin used wire wheels for racing back in the day. Safety was not an issue, it was more stiffness and weight, I think, that made people move to solid wheels. I know many vintage racers who (must) use wire wheels.
Jerry
Yeah…it’s hard to watch the Goodwood races each year and believe there is a serious danger posed by wire wheels…they seem to go all out without much problem, but who knows their condition post race?
There was a discussion of these centre-laced, or well-laced, wheels a while ago. Pete Crespin was referring to this style of this wheel–the “footprint” of the spokes on the rim, from inside to outside, is narrow, about 4 cm or so. I misunderstood. I know these “deep well” wheels are aesthetically popular for some reason, but they make no sense to me. With empty space outboard, some of the spokes could be inserted nearer the bead, triangulating the pattern for more lateral strength. Many spoke patterns do just that. Bead-laced wheels in contrast have the narrow footprint for a reason–to allow brakes, etc. to reside inside the rim. There must be something I’m missing.
BTW, the story goes that Enzo, whilst visiting the US, saw magnesium alloy wheels in use and liked them. That was the end of wire wheels in Ferrari racing.
Gee…I’m talking present day. Every body used wire wheels THEN …it would be somewhat risky to use wires now in vintage racing if for no other reason then safer, attractive wheels are available. BTW, a thank you to Mr.Wilkinson for pointing out that no less then Enzo Ferrari ditched wire wheels when he found a lighter, safer wheel.
I’m not convince on the whole well-lace vs. bead lace analysis. For the most part, Ferrari stuck with center-lace with its cars as they gained in horsepower, with very short spokes. I suspect the shorter spokes handle the torque better and functionally cause the wheel to act more like a solid wheel. With a bead lace, you fewer short spokes to transfer torque, and have longer spokes that stretch to the bead, but they are more prone to breakage and flex. It would be interesting to see if anyone ever tested the three different lacing styles (excluding straight lace like they use on lowriders).
I think as Jerry points out, there were many reasons to go to alloy wheels unrelated to safety concerns, such as weight and I imagine the drive system. The Rudge spline drive system was an adequate way to transfer power when you had fairly low torque engines, but the higher torque would tax that design. Pin drive was a much better design for racing applications.
The whole issue is if you stay with factory original, you will have no problems at all, but if you modify anything, then you personally now accept engineering responsibility and accountability for anything that goes wrong, or breaks!
As noted above, Formula 1 racing cars in the 1950s ran with wire-spoke wheels - at racing speeds and racing compound tyres, and they pushed the envelope in every respect, but only needed to last a race weekend.
Jaguar properly engineered everything, in conjunction with DUNLOP, fully aware of having to provide warranty, and a sustainable safe product pretty well for the life of the car - back when cars were indeed designed and made to last.
When wire-wheels were introduced on XK120 as an option, and on C-types for racing, they were 16"x5" and had 54 spokes.
By XK150 they were strengthened to now have 60 spokes, in light of increasing tendency for customers to want chrome plated wheels rather than painted, and chrome plated is not as strong as painted (marginal), but indicative of Jaguar keeping way ahead of the game and any potential problems.
When E-type was introduced now 15"x5" and now even further strengthened to 72 spokes, and that was still more than adequate on standard sized Dunlop RS5 cross-ply tyres, and then the first generation Dunlop SP41 Radial tyres from 1964 onwards, and indeed still for second generation with Dunlop SP Sport radials from 1967 onwards - but still standard 185x15 width and aspect ratio.
With V12 E-type they went up to 6" rims but still 72 spoke, partially I suspect for more modern appearance but also as the V12 E-type now introduced one step wider and one step lower-profile tyres - then called ER70VR15, with the E a code representing 205 width, so effectively a 205/70 x 15. (Note also flared guards and suspension changes to accommodate the wider wheels/tyres)
Nothing wrong with the safety of factory standard wire-wheels if fitted with factory standard tyres (brand not important - just construction and size).
Racing cars went to alloy wheels for weight saving reasons, nothing to do with safety, and I can assure you I have seen more alloy wheel failures that I have seen wire-wheel failures - just try hitting a kerb or two or three!.
If you want to go away from factory standard - you take the risk that you are a sufficiently sound wheel/tyre engineer to know what you are doing - trouble is the various government bodies wont believe you, that’s why there are associated laws regarding fitment of non-standard wheels and tyres.
Good point about the shorter spokes. Borrani made them short by incorporating a deep well in the rim, which I think looks terrible. American cars had wire wheels (mostly Kelsey-Hayes) whose short spokes were possible because of large-diameter wheel centres. Often the spokes were only a couple of inches in length. Those look dated IMO.
I think that, in sixties and seventies, light weight wheels were desired, and the competition was between aluminum alloy-rimmed wire wheels and magnesium alloy cast wheels. Now days, most available wheels of either type are heavier than they need to be, I suspect.
The answer to your thread title question is no.
As for…[quote=“Lundabo, post:8, topic:353690”]
I’m not convince on the whole well-lace vs. bead lace analysis
[/quote] that’s a broader topic.
Bill, you SHOULD be scepticak of stuff you read on forums, especially when written by non-engineers like me. However, don’t take my word for it - just look what Jaguar themselves did.
The only difference between Jaguar’s standard wheel and competition wheel is half an inch wider rim and a change of lace pattern to a three-row wider bead lace. Both were painted, not chromed.
I’m not sure you can stay sceptical when you see what the factory did there. Clearly Jaguar thought it was important to offer more grip at the rear for racing, and to support those increased lateral loads by a change of lace pattern. Otherwise, why change?
Stock wheels are fine for normal driving -which in the case of E-types is pretty fast. So are fully center-laced rims showing off lots of unpierced chrome rim. But they are ultimately less strong than comp laced wheels that Jaguar offered.
Maybe Ferrari had wider spacing between the inner and outer hub flanges? Maybe the hubs used 100% butted or straight-pull spokes? Dunno. By the time the stronger forged smooth hubs were used for S2s, the heavier V12 E was under development and Jag knew the stamped curly hub would suffer more problems?
They are probably heavy enough to withstand most of the hazards they’ll face on a regular basis, like potholes, curb hits etc. Lightweight wheels tend to bend and crack on big pothole hits, which most consumers would never accept.
Hi Peter, thanks on the question…saw your response on the UK forum as well.
Your reasoning makes sense, and I do think the Borrani spoke spread in the well is wider than on the well-laced rims made for jags. Maybe the spread for Jags is narrower for brake clearance purposes? I personally think the three row comp lace is the best looking, but they’re not made for a Series 3 AFAIK.
If you like the triple-laced comp look maybe a good shop can make some?
Some wheel builders start with naked rims not pierced for any special lace pattern or spoke angle… I would think they could adapt or create a blank 6" or 7" comp-pattern rim to a set of forged smooth hubs?
I wouldn’t even know where to start. I asked Halliwell about it and he said no. Turrino will do it for $$$$…don’t need a set of wheels that are 1/4 the value of my car. Not sure who stateside would do it, but definitely would consider it if I could find one.
I raced and auto crossed two different E Types over 15 years on wire wheels. The stock wheels with chromed spokes will break spokes on a frequent basis, always at the end where the spoke enters the hub. Dayton wire wheels with the extra thick stainless spokes are bullet proof - never had a problem, they always stayed true, and always held air. Last car was 375 hp running on 15 x 7 well laced wheels, on Hoosiers. Generated cornering forces well in excess of stock. I went off track and over cubs often at high speeds - never an issue. As noted they are heavier than alloy. A 16 x 7" steel wheel I’ve got on a street car is 27 pounds. The biggest advantage with alloy wheels is they will permit more air to flow through them for brake cooling (and can be designed to do so). Wire wheels effectively become solid to air at high speed - I’ve been told.
According to one of the engineers at Dayton the short spoke, long spoke theory is bunk. When I ordered a set of 17 x 7" wheels from them with aluminum rims I asked about this ( how long would the spokes be). He says there is no difference in strength.
David
I gotta agree with Jerry. I put the current wire wheels on the PrtyKty about twenty years ago. I’ve driven the car “sideways” a LOT since then, and have never had a failure.
LLoyd
I can see that tensile strength would be the same. OTOH, it seems that angles between spokes, both in terms of the “cross pattern” around the circumference, and the angles represented by the placement of spokes along two or three rows axially, would differ between shorter spokes and longer ones. For two wheels with the same drilling pattern, the one with shorter spokes is more “triangulated” than the one with longer spokes, and thus stiffer. You get shorter spokes by using a larger centre, a deeper “well” in the rim, or a smaller diameter wheel altogether. IMHO.