[x300] Renewing Coolant (X308)

X300
21

In reply to a message from Brian Caro sent Wed 13 Jun 2007:

I did some research to refresh my memory on coolants. DexCool
(red/orange) is OAT or organic acid technology. Introduced in GM
vehicles in 1996, It basically removes the silicate inhibitors of
older ethylene glycol coolants and replaces them with organic acid
to extend the life of the inhibitors. G05 (yellow) or HOAT is a
hybrid and has some silicates and some organic acid. There is a lot
of testimony on the net about problems with DexCool, and I have
heard it so long, it makes me nervous. If I had a car I liked, I
would use the G05 in it, whether it called for DexCool or not. If
one is changing this over, it will require a thorough flush first.
I do this by running fresh water through it three cycles until
draining shows no exidence of coolant.–
The original message included these comments:

Be careful, the yellow and red/orange coolants are not the same
chemistry and they do not mix well. Yellow is HOAT or Hybrid
Organic Acid, Dex Cool or the red/orange is not the same, I am not
sure what it is but it is not HOAT. Your car should use the Dex
Cool.

–
Brian Caro 96XJ6 4.0 63E-TypeS1FHC
Newport News, VA, United States
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22

In reply to a message from Brian Caro sent Wed 13 Jun 2007:

Hmmmmm have to do what I think is best I suppose.

Have spoken to Jag here in UK and they tell me that if the coolant
conforms to ESD-M97B49-A then it is the right one, REGARDLESS of
colour, it WILL be chemically the same.

Maybe the colour thing is more over the pond with you? Have not
seen ANY yellow coolant OR Dex Cool for sale in the shops in the
UK? Only normal blue coolant (2 year life) or red (longlife 5
Years).

Just wish the old girl had been correctly filled in the first
place, as for sure at the moment she has the wrong coolant in her!–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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23

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Thu 14 Jun 2007:

Another point to note is that the vast majority of manufacturers in
the UK now factory fill their ew cars with the silicate free
organic acid formula coolant (Long life).–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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24

There were problems early on with GM’s DexCool resulting in badly
clogged systems. Oddly, this seemed to happen only on certain models—the
“S10” series of truck and small-SUVs come to mind, maybe a couple others. As
I recall the clogging usually occurred when the systems were run low on
coolant and therefore were exposed to more air than usual.

If I think of it I’ll try to find the tech bulletins from years ago.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Brian Caro” bcaro@cmlarchs.com

I did some research to refresh my memory on coolants. DexCool
(red/orange) is OAT or organic acid technology. Introduced in GM
vehicles in 1996,

. There is a lot
of testimony on the net about problems with DexCool, and I have
heard it so long, it makes me nervous.

25

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Thu 14 Jun 2007:

Hello all,

Yes, Doug is right. As far as I know, this is caused by
combination of 2 things:

(1) low coolant level (so that the cooling system ‘‘SEES’’ air
in it),

(2) iron components in the cooling system.

Because OAT does NOT produce protective layer inside the
cooling system like old silicate-based-inhibitor does, when
particularly iron parts are exposed to air, they form rust
and washed away by DexCool coolant. Then, this causes
clogging. Since Jaguar said the coolant system is
compatible with DexCool type coolant (I forgot the exact
specification, but the number that the original poster
indicated seems to be correct, anyway that is equivalent to
DexCool), it should be fine. For an extra protection, just
make sure you have no air in the system.

That’s all what I have heard or seen. Be careful, I am not
a coolant expert!–
Momo (or 100 when written in Japanese Kanji), '98 4.0 XJ8 L
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26

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Thu 14 Jun 2007:

Alex,

I bought a container (5 litres) of Jaguar coolant last year, part
number is JLM 20404-3. It conforms to ESD-M97B49A and is an
extremely bright Yellow.–
The original message included these comments:

Hmmmmm have to do what I think is best I suppose.
Have spoken to Jag here in UK and they tell me that if the coolant
conforms to ESD-M97B49-A then it is the right one, REGARDLESS of
colour, it WILL be chemically the same.
Maybe the colour thing is more over the pond with you? Have not
seen ANY yellow coolant OR Dex Cool for sale in the shops in the
UK? Only normal blue coolant (2 year life) or red (longlife 5
Years).
Alex Kitney

–
Gary London,UK, 98 XJ8 4 www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1122951577
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27

In reply to a message from gary breyer sent Thu 14 Jun 2007:

OK

I have no care what the colour of the coolant is…the important
thing is that whatever the colour is as long as it conforms to ESD-
M97B49A is what is important.

This I confirmed with Jaguar.

I have just drained the car andit was a definite bright green/blue.

Have refilled with the new stuff, which is
pink/red/orange…depending on what light you catch it in!–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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28

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Wed 13 Jun 2007:

Ok so after reading this post I believe I am more confused than
before I read it. Some say dex-cool is ok, others say the yellow
stuff. My car has a reddish coolant in it. After checking the
manual for my vehicle (98 XJR) I have three specifications to go by:

ESD-M97B49-A
ASTM-D3306
and the manual says a Dow-D542 spec.

Are any of these ok to use? I have a dex-cool bottle from a
previous car that meets the ASTM-D3306 but says nothing about the
other specifications.

Also in regards to the first post, is there any bleeding that needs
to be done to the system?–
ESLF16
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29

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Wed 13 Jun 2007:

Have done much research today…

ALL XJ8 models after VIN 878274 (2000 model year vehicles) were
factory filled with Havoline XLC Extended Life Coolant,
specification WSS-M-97B44D This is the bright orange/pink colour.
WSS-M-97B44D spec coolant is even bettered by WSS-M-97B44D standard
(both are orange/pink in colour). Both these types of coolant are
chemically the same as DEX-Cool and any other coolants of this
colour.

Yes some of you are sort of right in the forum. It is desirable NOT
to mix different colours of coolant, and I stand to be corrected
(after being told ‘bull’ by some nerd at my local dealer). It
should not harm your engine if you did however, but the most harm
will be done to the protecting properties of the new coolant that
you fill the car with.

The ‘Yellow’ coolant was Jaguar D542, this is chemically the same
as Dex G-05 and any other coolant you find that is bright yellow.
The XJ8 was factory filled with this prior to VIN 878274 (prior to
2000 model year cars).

Now this where we can all debate the subject for ever and ever. Yes
you can stick with the yellow coolant, but there have been problems
with this coolant. Jaguar Technical Bulletin 303-11 dated 09/2001
says ‘ON SOME VEHICLES WITHIN THE ABOVE VIN RANGES,(XJ8 812256-
878274), THE ANTIFREEZE SOLUTION SYSTEM MAY DETERIORATE, CAUSING
REDUCED CIRCULATION THROUGH THE HEATER CORE, RESULTING IN POOR
HEATER PERFORMANCE’ This bulletin then goes on to describe flushing
the cooling system and refilling with Havoline XLC Extended Life
Coolant. This type of coolant is newer technology and can only be
an improvement. It worries me when the Jag bulletin mentions the
fact that the Yelow G-05 coolant can deteriorate, to this end I
want something better than G-05!

My money is on the newer technology. I know some of you have read
on the net and in the motoring press bad negative/publicity
regarding the Orange XLC type coolant. It seems as with anything
these days there will always be an exception to the rule and it may
appear that some cars do not like the stuff. This I think is an all
too easy judgement call to make in blaming the coolant… when
other studies have shown that there were other factors involved
with these specific cars (sludge, pre existing corrosion etc). The
bench studies pre the introduction of Dex-Cool type coolants to the
market was 100,000,000 miles in ranging internal combustion engines.

I have included this link to Valvoline which gives the specs for
Dex-Cool, G-05 and Original Green

http://www.valvoline.com/zerex/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf?
coaid=1B5D1AEA1AFC

I hope this clears things up! I got mighty confused by the colours,
specs, forum opinions etc. That is why I embarked on this research
today.

I have now drained and flushed my XJ8 and have refilled with the
newer technology coolant. This being the orange/pink coolant that
Jaguar have used as standard since VIN 878274.

Regards to all–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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30

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

I recently noticed that Prestone is marketing a coolant that is
labeled as compatible with all types of coolant. I universal
coolant?–
The original message included these comments:

Yes some of you are sort of right in the forum. It is desirable NOT
to mix different colours of coolant, and I stand to be corrected
(after being told ‘bull’ by some nerd at my local dealer). It
should not harm your engine if you did however, but the most harm

–
Mick 95 XJ6 Sovereign
Eastern PA, United States
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31

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

I find it extremely odd that, having issued a TSB in 2001 about the
yellow coolant, dealers were still stocking it 6 months ago.–
The original message included these comments:

says ‘ON SOME VEHICLES WITHIN THE ABOVE VIN RANGES,(XJ8 812256-
878274), THE ANTIFREEZE SOLUTION SYSTEM MAY DETERIORATE, CAUSING
REDUCED CIRCULATION THROUGH THE HEATER CORE, RESULTING IN POOR
HEATER PERFORMANCE’ This bulletin then goes on to describe flushing
the cooling system and refilling with Havoline XLC Extended Life
Coolant. This type of coolant is newer technology and can only be
an improvement. It worries me when the Jag bulletin mentions the
fact that the Yelow G-05 coolant can deteriorate, to this end I
want something better than G-05!
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom

–
Gary London,UK, 98 XJ8 4 www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1122951577
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32

In reply to a message from gary breyer sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

Gary

Can only report what I have found out I am afraid!

Give me your e-mail addy and I will forward you an original and
full copy of 303-11.

I don’t think Jaguar are saying that ALL XJ8’s will suffer the
probs of deterioration of the yellow coolant, but when they do the
problems will be cured by changing to the newer tech. coolant
(orange).

This must have been an issue with Jaguar i.e. many people raising
the same fault of deterioration of coolant, otherwise Jag would not
have created the TSB.

Anyway bud as I said give me your e-mail addy and I will gladly
send you a copy of the TSB

KR’s–
The original message included these comments:

I find it extremely odd that, having issued a TSB in 2001 about the
yellow coolant, dealers were still stocking it 6 months ago.

–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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33

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Wed 13 Jun 2007:

Having a mad moment!!!

Forgot e-mail addys are included in the forum replies!!!

Gary - the TSB is on it’s way to you now.–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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34

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

Alex,

Received it, many thanks.–
The original message included these comments:

Having a mad moment!!!
Forgot e-mail addys are included in the forum replies!!!
Gary - the TSB is on it’s way to you now.
Alex Kitney

–
Gary London,UK, 98 XJ8 4 www.jag-lovers.org/v.htm?1122951577
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35

A bit odd, yes. But perhaps not totally out of line. Hard to say.

Maybe the dealer knows something we don’t? Factory recommendations are not
infallible. I’ve read a few tech bulletins from various manufacturers and
said to myself “No way. What in the world are they thinking?”

Remember, this is the same company that recommended throwing a couple
bottles of Bars Leaks in the radiator as a part of routine V12 servicing.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “gary breyer” garyjb@ntlworld.com

I find it extremely odd that, having issued a TSB in 2001 about the
yellow coolant, dealers were still stocking it 6 months ago.

–
The original message included these comments:

says ‘ON SOME VEHICLES WITHIN THE ABOVE VIN RANGES,(XJ8 812256-
878274), THE ANTIFREEZE SOLUTION SYSTEM MAY DETERIORATE, CAUSING
REDUCED CIRCULATION THROUGH THE HEATER CORE, RESULTING IN POOR
HEATER PERFORMANCE’

36

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sat 16 Jun 2007:

I agree…I think in this instance, as I did, you have to
afford yourself with as much ‘fact’ as possible and make an
informed personal choice.

As you all know I have flushed my ‘8’ and refilled with the newer
coolant (orange/pink). I was in two minds to do this or stick with
the G-05 yellow stuff. BUT the word ‘deterioration’ in the Jag TSB
did it for me. You are not telling me that the only effect of
this ‘deterioration’ is clogging of the heater matrix…there has
to be other problems that this deterioration can or does cause.–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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37

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

Ok, so I have the red stuff currently in the car, even though my
manual goes with the Yellow coolant. I have a bottle of the
havoline extended life dex-cool approved coolant from a previous
vehicle, on the back is says meets Ford ESE-M9744D, is that the
same as the WSS-M-97B44D coolant? Im slightly low and if they are
the same ill top it off.–
ESLF16
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38

In reply to a message from ESLF16 sent Sun 17 Jun 2007:

Don’t know if it is the same or not, ther are so many numbers and
letters on bottles these days it is hard to keep up with them

But what I did not know is that coolant does infact have a ‘shelf
life’, therefore if this bottle has been around for a while I would
buy new. Coolant is relatively cheap, so treat the cat and get her
some brand new stuff! (Top up bottle)

KR’s–
Alex Kitney
Calvert Green, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom
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39

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

The TSB was from a long time ago when the cars first started having
the coolant changed, they had a serious problem with the coolant
formula which caused gelling in the heater cores when the old stuff
mixed with other coolants, blocking them permanently and generating
a big reaction. It happened a lot when I had first bought my car 6
years ago, when folks were finally changing thje worn out original
coolants over. That problem is long over with. The current G-05 or
yellow Jag coolant is the right one for the XJ6 and the Dex Cool is
the right one for the XJ8. Using the universal stuff would put you
at the mercy of advertising, I would wait awhile to see waht
happens with it.–
The original message included these comments:

Can only report what I have found out I am afraid!

–
Brian Caro 96XJ6 4.0 63E-TypeS1FHC
Newport News, VA, United States
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40

In reply to a message from Alex Kitney sent Fri 15 Jun 2007:

Alex, it is confusing. The primary, historical issue was the use
of the ‘‘Green’’ coolant in areas with high mineral content in the
water (Like Europe). In the late 90’s, BMW was as anal about
coolant as Jaguar and had similar issues during this time.
That said, time has passed, and to make things simple, you can
think of coolant as ‘‘Green’’ and ‘‘Non-Green’’.

I think that on any alloy engine, you should use ‘‘Non-Green’’
coolant.–
The original message included these comments:

I hope this clears things up! I got mighty confused by the colours,
specs, forum opinions etc. That is why I embarked on this research
today.
I have now drained and flushed my XJ8 and have refilled with the
newer technology coolant. This being the orange/pink coolant that
Jaguar have used as standard since VIN 878274.

–
uncle
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