[xj] 1986 jaguar series 3 xj6 starts but wont stay running

car starts after rebuild the stater injector works put a
noid light on it lights up car runs then dies no noid light
lighting up on any injectors change ECU no change got 13
volts at coil just seems to be no power to injectors air
flow gate does open on start up…fuel pumps runs for a
little on start up but shuts of when it starts…any
suggestion most welcome been at it for 10 hours battery now
flat letting it charge all nite before back at it jump fuel
pump relay no difference…used extra grounds to main relay
and ground to injector harness–
Daniel Sawyer
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car starts after rebuild the stater injector works put a
noid light on it lights up car runs then dies no noid light
lighting up on any injectors change ECU no change got 13
volts at coil just seems to be no power to injectors air
flow gate does open on start up…fuel pumps runs for a
little on start up but shuts of when it starts…

You have only one pertinent issues, Daniel - the fuel pump stopping…

Firstly, remove air cleaner. turn ign ‘on’ and push the AFM inwards - the
pump should run when the flap is opened around 1/2" or so. Point being that
the fuel relay is operated by two circuits; one in ‘crank’ from the ign
key - and one via a reed switch in the AFM, operated by the AFM flap. If the
reed switch or the (red) diode pack fail, the pump will stop as the key is
released from ‘crank’…

To bypass, primarily for test purposes; disconnect fuel relay and short the
socket white to socket white/green. The pump should now run with the ign
key to ‘on’ - then try starting the engine. If the engine then starts and
runs, you can drive on permanently in this configuration…

… however, the ‘dual’ arrangement is a safety device, and you should
consider rectifying the fault…:slight_smile:

The noid on the CSI connector is only activated during cranking - and only
light up briefly. It is controlled by the thermotime switch which restricts
the spray time depending on engine temps, above some - after the initial
engagement the TT needs some time to reset. Connected to an injector plug,
the noid will pulse during cranking, indicating that the injectors are being
triggered - but as the engine actually starts; they are…:slight_smile:

Incidentally, the injectors are powered from the main relay via the injector
resistor pack - the coil voltage runs the ignition and the ign amp, which
is required to control the injectors…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

any
suggestion most welcome been at it for 10 hours battery now
flat letting it charge all nite before back at it jump fuel
pump relay no difference…used extra grounds to main relay
and ground to injector harness-----Original Message-----
From: sawyer10702
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2014 3:18 PM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: [xj] 1986 jaguar series 3 xj6 starts but wont stay running

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 31 May 2014:

I checked all voltages to all that apply… Checked
resistor pack slate/brown wires they both have battery
power. Opened flap on AFM fuel pump comes on stater
injector has pulse shorted fuel pump relay white/white and
green still won’t stay running checked grounds on injector
harness and all plugs… Maybe it’s main relay checking
it out frank–
Daniel Sawyer
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car starts after rebuild the stater injector works put a
noid light on it lights up car runs then dies no noid light
lighting up on any injectors

To clarify, no noid light flashing on any of the 6 regular injectors. Do I
have that right?

change ECU no change got 13
volts at coil just seems to be no power to injectors

In the other post you say you have 12v on the brown/slate wires at the
ballast pack. That’s good, as it shows you have output from the ‘main’
relay. If you also have 12v at the injectors themselves (and you probably
do) but still no noid light activity then the ECU obviously isn’t
grounding them.

But Why?

Are all the ground wires attached to the bolt at the end of the water
rail? There are several.

Is the white/black wire from the distrubutor “-” post attached to the
harness? This wire normally runs rearward along the water rail with a bullet
connector about half way along. In essence it’s the ‘trigger’ wire for the
ECU

Is the coolant temp sensor plugged in? And the plug isn’t damaged?

…used extra grounds to main relay
and ground to injector harness

Do take another look at the bundle of grounds at the water rail. About a
half dozen ground wires. It would be very easy to overlook a couple that
might’ve flopped down and out of sight.

Adding to Frank’s commentary on the fuel pump here’s a checklist that you
might need.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/fuelpumpcheck.htm

The fuel pump issue might…or might not…be a separate fault from the
no-injector-pulse issue

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Pacific Northwest USA
1995 XJRFrom: “sawyer10702” sawyer_10702@hotmail.com

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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sun 1 Jun 2014:

Hi Doug, I have done all tests on this site and information
everyone has kindly past my way…I did jump the fuel pump
relay no change. I have also extra ECU with no
difference.The afm works normal I have voltages at resistor
pack on brown /slate wires…I have checked continuity at all
injector wire at harness and checking at resistor pack wires
from injector boots. I have checked all grounds doug and
grounded them with extras.and checked continuity on all
grounds there’s quite a few how many?? I have grounds on
intake manifold nut and a single braided wire going to water
rail I guess that’s for cts sensors and others i
suppose…well one point you have made doug I have not
checked power at injector plugs. so power for them comes
from resistor pack and then ECU grounds them, I have
learned a lot about the wiring on this car in two
days…sigggggh will look for more grounds I might have
overlooked doug and check voltage at injectors I pressume i
can use a test light for this?? you mentioned that bullet
connector on the harness if I take that and pop it in and
out of it self a few times it makes injectors click and then
it will start but dies from no pulse to them when cranking
so back at it tomorrow again…Thanks Doug for your info and
Knowledge on my electrical problem Cheers will post a update
:slight_smile: fingers crossed–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from sawyer10702 sent Sun 1 Jun 2014:

Doug no noid light on any injectors…cts is good 5.9 ohms
wire harness is good checked out wires all good even jumped
cts connector for kicks and giggles…–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 31 May 2014:

I checked all voltages to all that apply… Checked
resistor pack slate/brown wires they both have battery
power. Opened flap on AFM fuel pump comes on stater ,
injector has pulse shorted fuel pump relay white/white and
green still won’t stay running

To clarify absolutely, Daniel;

  • does the engine actually start initially, but won’t stay running?
  • does the fuel pump run continuously with ign ‘on’; ie the fuel relay
    shorted?

The injector test lamp, noid, should blink regularly while cranking - there
is no light with the engine stationary. You don’t state positively that you
were cranking while testing - it’s peculiar that the engine actually starts
when there is no actual injector action…:slight_smile:

Another injector check is that you can hear the injectors clicking while
cranking…

You have done very thorough and comprehensive checks - showing no anomalies,
except; you must positively state if the noid, connected to an injector
connector, does or does not blink while cranking. Further voltage checks on
the connectors; with ign ‘on’, both wires on each injector connector should
show 12V…, please confirm…:slight_smile:

Hypothetically, the engine may start on the fuel injected by the CSI, but it
is unusual. The CSI seems to work as it should, so you can forget that for
the time being…

There are five distinct different lines of enquiries, depending on symptoms;

The engine wont’ start - sparking should be checked first, no ignition, no
injection…
The engine starts, but dies slowly when key is released from ‘crank’ -
lack of sustained fuel supply,
The engine starts, but quits immediately the key is released from
‘crank’ - typical ign key fault
Immediate restart attempt gives same results - ditto…
Engine won’t restart - typical, it initially starts on the CSI, which is
inactive on immediate restart…

So…?

Overall injector operation; constantly powered from the resistor pack to one
wire on each injector, the sole function of the ECU is to ground the other
wire on each injector. This allows current to flow, opening the injector for
the programmed time. The ign amp makes/breaks coil current at the same time
gives signals to the ECU - which operates all injectors once every engine
revolution. Ie it fires the injectors on every third ignition pulse - and
the noid on a connector will blink each time the injector is grounded…

A specific test of the ign amp is to connect the noid between coil neg and
ground. It should be fully lit with ign ‘on’ and dim and flicker during
cranking/running. The coil neg (actually ign amp neg) black/white wire is
connected to the ECU via the injector resistor pack - and continuity of this
wire can be checked there (#1 on the ECU connector)

Point is that the flickering of the noid during cranking(!) is essential -
with no noid reaction the cause must be pursued to a solution. One point;
voltage checks should also be carried out with a test lamp - there may be
normal voltages, but there is insufficient current flow…

If the noid reaction is normal, and the engine dies slowly after starting -
one cannot exclude the possibility that there is a blockage of the fuel
lines. Fuel pressure tests is then essential…

But clarify engine behaviour…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

checked grounds on injector
harness and all plugs… Maybe it’s main relay checking
it out-----Original Message-----
From: sawyer10702
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2014 5:37 AM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] 1986 jaguar series 3 xj6 starts but wont stay running

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

I am still having ‘‘cyber fun’’! But, help is on the way. A
refurbished better Dell desktop with W7! This XP unit has
issues as I(E8 is no longer supported by my proxy browser!!!

I can make Google chrome work, sorta. But, unwanted piopups
mess up the works.

Small Jaguar victory yesterday. Coco and I went to the
store. The driver window stuck down!!! Corrosion/connection
issue most likely!! I know how to deal with it. On return, I
got a refurbed spare from my bits. Within thirty minutes,
working leisurely, I had the window back in crisp operation.

Relation to present issue:

  1. Way back when, we had a long running thread with a fellow
    in Texas. His car would run sans fuel supply!!! As I recall,
    the final solution was the repair of a frayed wire within
    the insulation!! The ECU that rode as a mere passenger in my
    car now in his!!

  2. Seems like all potential connection/corrosion issues
    within the engine bay have been checked and resolved. That
    leaves those in the boot. Popping the ECU in and ut may
    scrape those connectors clean and restore the ground
    conductivity needed to fire the injectors.

Good luck with the electrickery.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Hypothetically, the engine may start on the fuel injected by the CSI, but it
is unusual. The CSI seems to work as it should, so you can forget that for
the time being…


Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

yes I put noid light on all injectors 1-6 while cranking no
activity. only on starter injector/choke CTS is working and
wire harness connection Have been checked fuel pump goes on
while cranking and also when the AFM door is opened all
voltages are normal have 12v at coil have spark while
cranking.the bullet connection that doug describe to trigger
ECU when tap together makes all 1-6 injectors click which
obviously sprays fuel in because when I do that it starts
and runs for 3seconds or so but doe run–
The original message included these comments:

I checked all voltages to all that apply… Checked
resistor pack slate/brown wires they both have battery
power. Opened flap on AFM fuel pump comes on stater ,

  • does the engine actually start initially, but won’t stay running?
  • does the fuel pump run continuously with ign ‘on’; ie the fuel relay


Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from cadjag sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

ok checked voltage to all injectors test light lights up on
all 6 injectors. I did other test with noid on negative side
of coil and ground the noid lights up and flickers on crank
checked all grounds now going to check ECU pin #1 and others
what pin or pins give power to Ecu is Ecu power always or
just when running??–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from cadjag sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

I have checked #1 pin at ECU for continuity all good and did
continuity from computer plug to engine compartment plug
with injector ground wires all have continuity…now im
baffled why isnt the computer connecting the circuit???or is
the computer being told what to do to make a ground which
wire sends that signle is it the black/white wire with the
bullet???schematics I have hardly any colour codes thats
hatnes and a jaguar factory book I have has the same has
haynes–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from sawyer10702 sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

ok question I have a 86 xj6 series three in the haynes
manual it do not show my wiring color codes I have a
white/black wire which is a single wire by itself and two
wires together so which side of coil do these go +or- please
explain…also the ballast resistor which side of coil +0r-
side…i also noticed the two wires on ballast which way
they does it matter…also I only have a red and white wire
only going to my starter solenoid thou in haynes manual page
280 solenoid #4 the red and white fuel injection amp…it
also says the HT lead is WB lol must be wrong he wiring
diagram does not have my color codes…thou on page 274 pre
1982 wiring diagram has my wire colors but no ballast i
confused please help on proper wires I hook up my coil wires
different has to what it says on page 274 but now no
spark??? the white/black wire sends signal to ECU correct?
which side of coil…Negative possibly–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from sawyer10702 sent Sat 31 May 2014:

Update I only have power only on one side of injector plugs–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

engine runs for 2 secs then dies wait for 20 mins it will
start if I take the black and white wire the trigger wire #1
on Ecu I which I got continuity on from ECU PLUG To front of
engine plug.and I can make the injectors spray some fuel it
starts that way but wont stay running cause maybe there’s a
short to ground on the ECU Side…20 hrs now with no
difference LOL good thing I have patients…remember I have
only test light lighting up only on one side of injectors
did the noid test on the coil bright when starting then
flickers when cranking–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from sawyer10702 sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

Hi Daniel,
Not everyone here has a Haynes manual so many can’t help you.
Mr Haynes seems to have slipped up and labelled the early wiring
diagram as the late one and vice versa. You should use the diagram
labelled ‘pre 1982’ and ignore the other one.

Some coils have a ballast resistor in series and some don’t, consider
the resistor as part of the coil, doesn’t matter which way around it’s
connected.

Regarding the connections to the coil all plain white wires go to the
coil +, all white wires with black stripe go to the coil -.

John Hudson
Brisbane, Australia
1985 XJ6 SIIIOn 03/06/14 06:25, sawyer10702 wrote:

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You located all 6 ground wires at rear of coolant rail?

I’m sending you a decent diagram. Check your email

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Pacific Northwest USA
1995 XJRFrom: “sawyer10702” sawyer_10702@hotmail.com

ok checked voltage to all injectors test light lights up on
all 6 injectors. I did other test with noid on negative side
of coil and ground the noid lights up and flickers on crank
checked all grounds now going to check ECU pin #1 and others
what pin or pins give power to Ecu is Ecu power always or
just when running??

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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

Yes Doug all grounds are good where do the grounds that
are tied together goto ?? Thanks I will check my email
cheers–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

Replaced amplifier tonite and checked dizzy for correct
pick up clearance. No change–
Daniel Sawyer
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In reply to a message from sawyer10702 sent Sat 31 May 2014:

Update I only have power only on one side of injector plugs

That is the side from the resistor pack, Daniel…

…when using a test lamp the power required to light the lamp is too weak
on the ECU side - its electronics show have 12V on the injector connectors,
but there is no power to light the lamp. 12V measured with a voltmeter will
basically confirm ECU connections…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

Frank-----Original Message-----
From: sawyer10702
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 11:39 AM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] 1986 jaguar series 3 xj6 starts but wont stay running

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 2 Jun 2014:

engine runs for 2 secs then dies wait for 20 mins it will
start if I take the black and white wire the trigger wire #1
on Ecu I which I got continuity on from ECU PLUG To front of
engine plug.and I can make the injectors spray some fuel it
starts that way

Basically the ECU is receiving ground on the white/black wire from the
coil, Daniel - grounding the wire signals the ECU to trigger. As a matter of
fact, as ignition is turned ‘on’, the injectors clicks once - but to inject
petrol there must be fuel pressure in the fuel rail…

The test implies that the circuitry and ECU functions properly, but the ECU
is not receiving trigger signals from the amp/coil neg.

Referring to your other post about coil connections, and resistor fitted:

  • bypass the coil by connecting the white wire from the ign key to coil
    pos.
  • connect the white wire from the ign amp to coil pos

There should be 2 white wires on coil pos.

  • connect white/black wire from ign amp to coil neg…
  • connect white/black ECU wire to coil neg
  • connect white/slate blue

Three wires on coil neg…

If misconnected the ECU may not trigger properly - and in any case; somehow
we have to get those injetors clicking, and all will be well…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

but wont stay running cause maybe there’s a
short to ground on the ECU Side…20 hrs now with no
difference LOL good thing I have patients…remember I have
only test light lighting up only on one side of injectors
did the noid test on the coil bright when starting then
flickers when cranking-----Original Message-----
From: sawyer10702
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 11:44 AM
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Subject: Re: [xj] 1986 jaguar series 3 xj6 starts but wont stay running

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