[xj] battery?

XJ
21

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 30 Nov 2009:

You have to bear in mind the original fault was sluggish
starting. Nothing to do with the relays. The only reason why
they can be heard to click now is because the starter isn’t
cranking.

Dave C.–
Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
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22

Just for my own attempt to understand these things…the people who I
had hoped to see contribute an opinion are you guys…if he connects
the red/white wire to Battery PLUS and it doesn’t crank, then it’s
further indication the starter or solenoid (if that’s what it has)
could be where the problem is.
My car started, so with a new relay i have been back on the road for
five years since…except for other problems!
Thanks, and thanks, Frank…
Alaska is the last to go to bed in the US, and then you guys come on
duty…11:30 PM here…quite a circle of friends, with jaguars to
bring us together, in the beginning, and friends besides now…
Bill
Alaska
'86 v12 vdP
'71 xj lumpOn Nov 30, 2009, at 11:06 PM, sparx wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 30 Nov 2009:

You have to bear in mind the original fault was sluggish
starting. Nothing to do with the relays. The only reason why
they can be heard to click now is because the starter isn’t
cranking.

Dave C.

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23

In reply to a message from William de Creeft sent Tue 1 Dec 2009:

I think you’ve got it Bill. The sole purpose of the
ignition switch and any associated relays as far as the
starter is concerned is to put a battery positive on the
small solenoid terminal that the red and white wire connects
to. Jumping a battery supply to that terminal tells you one
of two things:-
If the starter cranks the problem is with the switch, the
relay, the inhibit switch (if fitted) or the associated
wiring.
If the starter doesn’t crank the fault is with the unit
(solenoid or motor) or the heavy battery cables (supply or
earth).
Unless the battery is flat or faulty of course.

Dave C.–
The original message included these comments:

Just for my own attempt to understand these things…the people who I
had hoped to see contribute an opinion are you guys…if he connects
the red/white wire to Battery PLUS and it doesn’t crank, then it’s
further indication the starter or solenoid (if that’s what it has)
could be where the problem is.

–
Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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24

sparx wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 30 Nov 2009:

You have to bear in mind the original fault was sluggish
starting. Nothing to do with the relays. The only reason why
they can be heard to click now is because the starter isn’t
cranking.

My point was that there is now no reaction at all, Dave…

Which may certainly mean that the starter/solenoid has finally expired.
But verifying that relays are working, including jumping red/white
costs nothing - there just may be a new fault…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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25

Ok, I jumped the battery straight to the red and white wire on the
starter relay. there were very audible clicks, but no start. Am I
supposed to crank, or just jump? I didn’t crank it. So, this means
that I need a new starter motor, yes?2009/12/1 Frank Andersen franksue@xtra.co.nz:

sparx wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 30 Nov 2009:

You have to bear in mind the original fault was sluggish starting. Nothing
to do with the relays. The only reason why they can be heard to click now is
because the starter isn’t cranking.

My point was that there is now no reaction at all, Dave…

Which may certainly mean that the starter/solenoid has finally expired. But
verifying that relays are working, including jumping red/white costs
nothing - there just may be a new fault…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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26

Ok, I jumped the battery straight to the red and white wire on the
starter relay. there were very audible clicks, but no start. Am I
supposed to crank, or just jump? I didn’t crank it. So, this means
that I need a new starter motor, yes?> My point was that there is now no reaction at all, Dave…

Which may certainly mean that the starter/solenoid has finally expired. But
verifying that relays are working, including jumping red/white costs
nothing - there just may be a new fault…:slight_smile:

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27

As soon as you connected the red/white wire to Battery positive the
engine should have spun over.
You went around everything direct from Battery to Starter (maybe
solenoid AND starter; I don’t know how they are mounted in that
car)…but it wouldn’t have to be a jag mechanic to pull that starter
and look for the problem.

Bill
AlaskaOn Dec 5, 2009, at 10:40 AM, William Higgins wrote:

Ok, I jumped the battery straight to the red and white wire on the
starter relay. there were very audible clicks, but no start. Am I
supposed to crank, or just jump?

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28

In reply to a message from William Higgins sent Sat 5 Dec 2009:

William:

Try to jump battery to red/white post on the solenoid. That should
cause a crank.

If no go, use a big jumper cable and jump from battery positive to
starter big post. Careful here, big volts. If the starter is good,
it should spin, but possibly not crank.

And/or use a big single jump cable and carefully connect the big
post on the solenoid to the big post on the starter.

If the starter is good, one or both of these should get at least a
spin.

If no, it is abad solenoid and or starter.

I’ve jumped a few reluctant Chevvies with a big old screw driver
this way. Yes, I know, but the systems are very similar.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Ok, I jumped the battery straight to the red and white wire on the
starter relay. there were very audible clicks, but no start. Am I
supposed to crank, or just jump? I didn’t crank it. So, this means
that I need a new starter motor, yes?

–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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29

Does anyone have a diagram, that says where the starter motor is? I’m
pretty clueless.

William G Higgins
1973 series 1 XJ6 4.2l2009/12/5 cadjag carl.hutchins1@sbcglobal.net:

In reply to a message from William Higgins sent Sat 5 Dec 2009:

William:

Try to jump battery to red/white post on the solenoid. That should
cause a crank.

If no go, use a big jumper cable and jump from battery positive to
starter big post. Careful here, big volts. If the starter is good,
it should spin, but possibly not crank.

And/or use a big single jump cable and carefully connect the big
post on the solenoid to the big post on the starter.

If the starter is good, one or both of these should get at least a
spin.

If no, it is abad solenoid and or starter.

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30

William Higgins wrote:

Ok, I jumped the battery straight to the red and white wire on the
starter relay. there were very audible clicks, but no start. Am I
supposed to crank, or just jump? I didn’t crank it. So, this means
that I need a new starter motor, yes?

This jump bypasses the starter relay, William…

…and the clicks heard is likely the starter solenoid engaging. At
which stage the starter, now connected to the battery through the
solenoid, should indeed crank - everything being good…

This solenoid click (loud) should also be heard with normal key
operation, though - the key operates the relay, which then operates the
starter solenoid…so…

Given the gradual degradation of the cranking it is most likely the
starter - with a vague possibility of the solenoid failing. However,
checking/overhaulingreplacement of either require the same operation;
the starter must be taken out…

The starter is right rear on the engine; you can see it when looking
down at the rear of the throttle body. It’s to be accessed from below
and removed downwards, though…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>2009/12/1 Frank Andersen <@Frank_Andersen>:

sparx wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Mon 30 Nov 2009:

You have to bear in mind the original fault was sluggish starting. Nothing
to do with the relays. The only reason why they can be heard to click now is
because the starter isn’t cranking.

My point was that there is now no reaction at all, Dave…

Which may certainly mean that the starter/solenoid has finally expired. But
verifying that relays are working, including jumping red/white costs
nothing - there just may be a new fault…:slight_smile:

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31

Ok, thanks for all your diagnostic help Frank, hopefully I will one
day be the guy on the site aiding with starting problems, as I am
learning a lot now.

 Would you say the starter motor removal/replacement was do-able

for someone whose experience of cars is very little? Or is it a trip
to the mechanic I require? What I’ve been reading in the archives is
that the service manual recommends removal of some things that are not
required in actuality, (dip stick for one) which is rather
off-putting. But I own jack stands and a creeper, so maybe I should
just try.

William G Higgins
Series 1 XJ6 4.2l
Vancouver, BC> Given the gradual degradation of the cranking it is most likely the starter

  • with a vague possibility of the solenoid failing. However,
    checking/overhaulingreplacement of either require the same operation; the
    starter must be taken out…

The starter is right rear on the engine; you can see it when looking down at
the rear of the throttle body. It’s to be accessed from below and removed
downwards, though…

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32

William Higgins wrote:

Ok, thanks for all your diagnostic help Frank, hopefully I will one
day be the guy on the site aiding with starting problems, as I am
learning a lot now.

Would you say the starter motor removal/replacement was do-able

for someone whose experience of cars is very little? Or is it a trip
to the mechanic I require? What I’ve been reading in the archives is
that the service manual recommends removal of some things that are not
required in actuality, (dip stick for one) which is rather
off-putting. But I own jack stands and a creeper, so maybe I should
just try.

Add supplementary support, William - in case the stands or what they are
supporting fails. We are very concerned about safety whenever someone
crawls under a car…

As for DIY - there is nobody on this list, or anywhere else, that did
‘something’ for the first time with previous experience on that
‘something’…:-). Not knowing your previous experience; if you know how
to unbolt or unscrew anything at all, and don’t mind some discomfort and
body contortions - you are cleared to go…

Generally in this operation; one disconnects the battery, disconnect the
wires at the solenoid or some more convenient spot, unbolt and remove
the starter. It’s space and access that creates the discomfort, and
removing the odd extra items is just to ease access - based on your own
view of the area. As an observation; tie something around the starter
and suspend it from above - it takes some weight off a rather weighty
item, if you feel it required…

Incidentally; it is most advicable to have a workshop manual - it’s
easier to consult, but references in the Archives are usually more
pertinent…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>>Given the gradual degradation of the cranking it is most likely the starter

  • with a vague possibility of the solenoid failing. However,
    checking/overhaulingreplacement of either require the same operation; the
    starter must be taken out…

The starter is right rear on the engine; you can see it when looking down at
the rear of the throttle body. It’s to be accessed from below and removed
downwards, though…

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33

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sat 5 Dec 2009:

Like Frank says, the starter is fairly easily accessable for a
solitary person to remove and replace with little previous
experience. It is in fact, one of the better places to
start ‘cutting your teeth’ on your car. You will definitely want to
remove one of the battery cables from the battery before you begin.
Next, you will want to take off the two ‘wires’ that go to the
starter. One of them is the heavy cable that goes to the starter
solenoid, and the other is the smaller wire that also goes to the
solenoid. The top bolt for the starter is accessable from above,
and the lower bolt from below. There is a metal shim that you will
want to remove before you take your starter to get rebuilt. You
won’t need to remove any other ancillary parts to get the starter
out from underneath. Might I suggest that you resist the urge to go
for a gear reduction starter. I had one on my TR6 which worked just
fine, but from everything I have been reading on these forums, the
original Lucas starter is just about bullet-proof.–
Tom Hishon, 69 E-type 2+2, 69 E-type OTS, 81 XJ6, 85 XJ6
Wasilla, Alaska, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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34

In reply to a message from kassaq sent Sun 6 Dec 2009:

I agree with Tom. And a very good narrative on how to do it.

I would add/emphasize as follows:

  1. Disconnect the battery positive at the battery. Wrap the end
    with an insualtor of sorts. An old glove will do.

  2. Disconnect the red/white at the relay.

  3. Disconnect the starter/solenoid cable at the stud on thne fire
    wall.

  4. Take out the top starter bolt from above.

  5. Disconnect the lower bolt.

  6. Pull the starter forward and down, cable and wire and remove to
    the bench.

  7. Now, you can bench test if desired. Connections can be cleaned
    tightened much better here. You can apply battery power here as
    previously mentioned to bench test.

  8. Prep the replacement or repaired starter with the red/white wire
    and cable.

It is easier to make the electrical connections at the cowl than
down in the bowels.

Removing the battery can give you a bit more elbow room above and
serve as a power source for bench testing the old critter.

If the replacement starter is not new or rebuilt, a bench test is
strongly recommended. If used, clean it up. I prefer to work on
clean things, it just seems to go better.

Report as you go, it will be a great source of satisfation to
become intimately acquainted with this region of your charge.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

Like Frank says, the starter is fairly easily accessable for a
solitary person to remove and replace with little previous
experience. It is in fact, one of the better places to
start ‘cutting your teeth’ on your car. You will definitely want to
remove one of the battery cables from the battery before you begin.
Next, you will want to take off the two ‘wires’ that go to the
starter. One of them is the heavy cable that goes to the starter
solenoid, and the other is the smaller wire that also goes to the
solenoid. The top bolt for the starter is accessable from above,
and the lower bolt from below. There is a metal shim that you will
want to remove before you take your starter to get rebuilt. You

–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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35

Ok, I am looking forward to this project. I will be taking an 87 VDP
starter and putting it in my 73 jag, I have been told by Craig Talbot
that these are bolt in, but the PO of the starter (Jim, who kindly
gifted it to me), has suggested that there is some circuit or relay
that is built in on this starter that was a separate piece on older
models. Any one able to corroborate these statements?

Also, there is supposed to be a spacer for my starter, how do I tell
if it is missing or not, is it some gasket, or a metal fitting, or…?

William G Higgins
series 1 XJ6 4.2l
Vancouver, BC2009/12/6 cadjag carl.hutchins1@sbcglobal.net:

In reply to a message from kassaq sent Sun 6 Dec 2009:

I agree with Tom. And a very good narrative on how to do it.

I would add/emphasize as follows:

  1. Disconnect the battery positive at the battery. Wrap the end
    with an insualtor of sorts. An old glove will do.

  2. Disconnect the red/white at the relay.

  3. Disconnect the starter/solenoid cable at the stud on thne fire
    wall.

  4. Take out the top starter bolt from above.

  5. Disconnect the lower bolt.

  6. Pull the starter forward and down, cable and wire and remove to
    the bench.

  7. Now, you can bench test if desired. Connections can be cleaned
    tightened much better here. You can apply battery power here as
    previously mentioned to bench test.

  8. Prep the replacement or repaired starter with the red/white wire
    and cable.

It is easier to make the electrical connections at the cowl than
down in the bowels.

Removing the battery can give you a bit more elbow room above and
serve as a power source for bench testing the old critter.

If the replacement starter is not new or rebuilt, a bench test is
strongly recommended. If used, clean it up. I prefer to work on
clean things, it just seems to go better.

Report as you go, it will be a great source of satisfation to
become intimately acquainted with this region of your charge.

Carl

The original message included these comments:

Like Frank says, the starter is fairly easily accessable for a
solitary person to remove and replace with little previous
experience. It is in fact, one of the better places to
start ‘cutting your teeth’ on your car. You will definitely want to
remove one of the battery cables from the battery before you begin.
Next, you will want to take off the two ‘wires’ that go to the
starter. One of them is the heavy cable that goes to the starter
solenoid, and the other is the smaller wire that also goes to the
solenoid. The top bolt for the starter is accessable from above,
and the lower bolt from below. There is a metal shim that you will
want to remove before you take your starter to get rebuilt. You

–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

===================================================
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// please trim quoted text to context only

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36

In reply to a message from William Higgins sent Tue 8 Dec 2009:

William

Not entirely sure what the donor was referring to, but the only
difference I’ve noticed is that the older starters have a terminal
that allows bypassing of the ballast resistor on the coil. It was
rendered redundant on the later SII models by a terminal on the
start relay and on the SIII models the ballast resistor, where
fitted, isn’t ever bypassed, so not used there either.

It does mean that there are two low current terminals on the
starter (see picture no two or five here:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1200239624 )

worth checking on the bench to make sure you know which is which?

Of course it may be something else entirely, others will chime in.–
The original message included these comments:

Ok, I am looking forward to this project. I will be taking an 87 VDP
starter and putting it in my 73 jag, I have been told by Craig Talbot
gifted it to me), has suggested that there is some circuit or relay
that is built in on this starter that was a separate piece on older
models. Any one able to corroborate these statements?

–
al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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37

In reply to a message from almcl sent Tue 8 Dec 2009:

I was just going from memory on this. I remember hearing something
about a relay or something that was built in the newer starters and
a seperate unit on older versions. In a chat room a few years
back. So I thought I would bring it up to William just to be safe.

Good Luck with the starter and my wife thanks you for clearing out
one more piece of ‘‘Jag Junk’’ from the garage. It’s funny she never
complains when she grabs the keys to one of them on a nice summer
day for a drive.

Jim–
87’ VDP (black), 86’ XJ-SC (grey), 86’ XJS (red),
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38

These instructions are great, I have followed them so far, removing
the battery for elbow room, and then undoing both bolts while keeping
the electrics (red/white and ground) connected to solenoid. Problem
now as I attempt to bench test, I have two batteries (both full), and
when I jump the battery positive to the red/white wire on the old
starter, nothing happens. When I did this when the starter was in the
car I heard the solenoid click loudly, but now nothing. Am I
grounding incorrectly or something?

Both starters yield same result, which def leads me to believe I am
doing something wrong, maybe the battery died while sitting? But the
only thing to draining the battery is the clock. No alarm, no cpu’s
(it is a series 1)

hmmm.2009/12/6 cadjag carl.hutchins1@sbcglobal.net:

In reply to a message from kassaq sent Sun 6 Dec 2009:

I agree with Tom. And a very good narrative on how to do it.

I would add/emphasize as follows:

  1. Disconnect the battery positive at the battery. Wrap the end
    with an insualtor of sorts. An old glove will do.

  2. Disconnect the red/white at the relay.

  3. Disconnect the starter/solenoid cable at the stud on thne fire
    wall.

  4. Take out the top starter bolt from above.

  5. Disconnect the lower bolt.

  6. Pull the starter forward and down, cable and wire and remove to
    the bench.

  7. Now, you can bench test if desired. Connections can be cleaned
    tightened much better here. You can apply battery power here as
    previously mentioned to bench test.

  8. Prep the replacement or repaired starter with the red/white wire
    and cable.

It is easier to make the electrical connections at the cowl than
down in the bowels.

Removing the battery can give you a bit more elbow room above and
serve as a power source for bench testing the old critter.

If the replacement starter is not new or rebuilt, a bench test is
strongly recommended. If used, clean it up. I prefer to work on
clean things, it just seems to go better.

Report as you go, it will be a great source of satisfation to
become intimately acquainted with this region of your charge.

Carl

The original message included these comments:

Like Frank says, the starter is fairly easily accessable for a
solitary person to remove and replace with little previous
experience. It is in fact, one of the better places to
start ‘cutting your teeth’ on your car. You will definitely want to
remove one of the battery cables from the battery before you begin.
Next, you will want to take off the two ‘wires’ that go to the
starter. One of them is the heavy cable that goes to the starter
solenoid, and the other is the smaller wire that also goes to the
solenoid. The top bolt for the starter is accessable from above,
and the lower bolt from below. There is a metal shim that you will
want to remove before you take your starter to get rebuilt. You

–
Carl Hutchins 1983 Jaguar XJ6 with LT1 and 1994 Jeep Grand
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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39

Just to clarify, the starter is out of the car, right?

Using heavy cables (like jump start cables) you’ll want to ground the
starter case to battery “-” and attach battery “+” to the large lug on the
solenoid. Use a third wire…about 12 gauge or so…to apply voltage to the
red/wire wire.

Is that how you’re doing it?

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Problem
now as I attempt to bench test, I have two batteries (both full), and
when I jump the battery positive to the red/white wire on the old
starter, nothing happens. When I did this when the starter was in the
car I heard the solenoid click loudly, but now nothing. Am I
grounding incorrectly or something?From: “William Higgins” williamghiggins@gmail.com

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40

It is our of the car. This is not the way I was doing it, but it will
be now. I’ll let you know how I go. Thanks Doug.

Now, I know you just said this, but I am in effect applying + to the
solenoid twice, once on the big lug, and once to the small connector
that the red/white wire would go to, correct?2009/12/20 Doug Dwyer dougdwyer1@comcast.net:

Just to clarify, the starter is out of the car, right?

Using heavy cables (like jump start cables) you’ll want to ground the
starter case to battery “-” and attach battery “+” to the large lug on the
solenoid. Use a third wire…about 12 gauge or so…to apply voltage to the
red/wire wire.

Is that how you’re doing it?

Cheers
Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

From: “William Higgins” <@William_Higgins>

Problem
now as I attempt to bench test, I have two batteries (both full), and
when I jump the battery positive to the red/white wire on the old
starter, nothing happens. When I did this when the starter was in the
car I heard the solenoid click loudly, but now nothing. Am I
grounding incorrectly or something?

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
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Jag-lovers Forums - Jag-lovers.

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