[xj] Crank, No Start '89 V12 VDP

XJ
21

In reply to a message from Bill Thom sent Tue 13 Mar 2007:

Well Bill, I’m sure you are not enjoying this, but I for one am
dying to know what the answer is ! This is better than Murder She
Wrote. Now, how could sitting six hours and sitting twenty hours
make any difference ? Unless Lucas fairies visited in the night.
Maybe it’s not heat related. Could it be some sort of ignition
switch glitch ? I’m totally ignorant of the the 12s, but didn’t
some of them have two coils and amps ? I guess then would be
obvious if one worked and not the other.–
The original message included these comments:

Not specifically, but I consider all of the wiring to and from the
amplifier suspect… they’re all a little ragged looking.
Update: this morning while waiting to meet the flatbed truck in the
supermarket parking lot where the VDP-with-attitude spent the night, I
thought I’d amuse myself by trying it once more. Vroom.
To review, yesterday the crank/no-start condition sprang up after a cold
start, a 1 1/2 mile drive, then a ten-minute sit. After 40 minutes
waiting for a ride home, still nothing. Six hours later, yesterday
evening, still nothing. This morning, some twenty hours later, she
starts right up like nothing happened. (Look! I’m talking like it’s a
recalcitrant child!)

–
Jim Legge '85 SIII XJ '96 LR Disco
Washington, DC, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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22

James Legge wrote:

In reply to a message from Bill Thom sent Tue 13 Mar 2007:

Well Bill, I’m sure you are not enjoying this, but I for one am
dying to know what the answer is ! This is better than Murder She
Wrote. Now, how could sitting six hours and sitting twenty hours
make any difference ? Unless Lucas fairies visited in the night.
Maybe it’s not heat related. Could it be some sort of ignition
switch glitch ? I’m totally ignorant of the the 12s, but didn’t
some of them have two coils and amps ? I guess then would be
obvious if one worked and not the other.

Jim, believe me, you’re not the only one who’s dying to know the
answer! The 12’s did have two coils at one time but mine is later than
that era. One coil. BT===================================================
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23

Update.

In our last episode, the VDP-With-Attitude had healed itself by the time
I was ready to flat-bed her to the mechanic after 20-some hours in the
crank-no-fire mode (mood?). The Arrogant Mechanic has now had her for
several days and has been unable to find anything amiss, and he is a
really good diagnostician. As I predicted, she still fires right up,
every time without fail, and I further predict that she will for weeks,
or even months. So we decided that the only reasonable course of action
would be for me to retrieve her and anxiously await her next automotive
menopause, or whatever is going wrong periodically, then trundle her
onto a flat-bed (gurney/ambulance?) and race her to the hospital before
she realizes what is happening. I’ll make sure that I never venture
very far from where the wrecker is dispatched, making this an
extraordinarily specialized-use automobile.

Meanwhile (back at the ranch?), the '87 XJ6 has developed a gasoline
aroma which, with the recent under-bonnet fire thread, I’ve decided not
to fool with. At least it will make picking up the V12 VDP easy; I’ll
just swap one for the other. (Maybe I should just leave them both there
and drive over in the old Jeep occasionally to visit them, maybe take
them on little drives around the mechanic’s neighborhood for old time’s
sake.)

An interesting side note on the gasoline smell: we had filled the car up
and run it on the left tank down to about 1/3. This morning, in
addition to noticing the aroma, my wife switched to the right tank and
found it to be at less than half despite not yet being selected at all.
Related? Probably, but how?

BT===================================================
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24

Bill: this is starting to sound like it might be an intermittent wiring
issue to me, although I assume that A-M has jiggled every wire while the
engine was running and verified that everything in the distributor is
OK; you have said, I think, that it I not heat-related; you have already
replaced the coil and the amplifier.
I also wonder if you might have a bad joint in the ECU. Have you tried
a long-term loan of a known good ECU say, from an 87 or so (pre-Marelli)
XJS?

And have you REPLACED the “main relay” (this relay is the square
silver top one with a diagonal red stripe on the top of it, but it
otherwise looks identical to the fuel pump relay beside it on the rad
rail? I say this because I once had a 1990 V12 which had been traded
in on a new Jaguar; it had a no-start condition. The invoice showed that
the dealer cured it by replacing this main relay. It certainly had no
problems afterwards during my (fairly extensive) ownership. So I would
definitely do this if it has not been done. The part number for the main
relay (Bosch) is AGU 1070. The fuel pump relay is AGU 1068.

Gregory
Victoria, Canada.
1966 Mark 2 3.8
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
2002 X-Type-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xj@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xj@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf
Of Bill Thom
Sent: March 19, 2007 8:20 PM
To: JagMsgPost
Subject: Re: [xj] Crank, No Start '89 V12 VDP

Update.

In our last episode, the VDP-With-Attitude had healed itself by the time

I was ready to flat-bed her to the mechanic after 20-some hours in the
crank-no-fire mode (mood?). The Arrogant Mechanic has now had her for
several days and has been unable to find anything amiss, and he is a
really good diagnostician. As I predicted, she still fires right up,
every time without fail, and I further predict that she will for weeks,
or even months.

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25

Well, Bill, now you know to start in the XJ6’s boot by replacing the selector
valve, then going through the check that fuel returns to exactly the tank
selected. This may lead to the smell source.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Bill Thom wrote:
[clip]

Meanwhile (back at the ranch?), the '87 XJ6 has developed a gasoline
aroma which, with the recent under-bonnet fire thread, I’ve decided not
to fool with. At least it will make picking up the V12 VDP easy; I’ll
just swap one for the other. (Maybe I should just leave them both there
and drive over in the old Jeep occasionally to visit them, maybe take
them on little drives around the mechanic’s neighborhood for old time’s
sake.)

An interesting side note on the gasoline smell: we had filled the car up
and run it on the left tank down to about 1/3. This morning, in
addition to noticing the aroma, my wife switched to the right tank and
found it to be at less than half despite not yet being selected at all.
Related? Probably, but how?

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26

Bill Thom wrote:

An interesting side note on the gasoline smell: we had filled the car
up and run it on the left tank down to about 1/3. This morning, in
addition to noticing the aroma, my wife switched to the right tank and
found it to be at less than half despite not yet being selected at
all. Related? Probably, but how?

Apart from the ‘right’ tank actually leaking there should be no relation
to the smell, Bill…

Not forgetting the…hm…precision of the tank gauge units; if the
changover valve doesn’t seal completely between the tanks fuel will
migrate to a lower tank. Also, this will allow the engine to use fuel
from both tanks, returning it correctly to the selected tank - depleting
the non-selected tank…

The amount of fuel used will not alter, nor will such a changeover valve
cause fuel smells…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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27

Bill,
can’t help much with the no-fire problem (and not sure I want to… I
thoroughly enjoy your writing style and wit, with the VDP-with-Attitude, and
the arrogant Mechanic… okay, yes, I want it fixed for you).
Gas is a different issue though.
Gas smells, gas leaks, self balancing tanks, erroneous gauges… had 'em
all.

1 -self-balancing level between the two tanks is always a leaky selector
valve down by the fuel pump. Had it on both jags, never really cured it,
but did fix it pretty good by removing the selector and soaking it in
techron for 24 hours and blasting it with carb cleaner.

2 - Gas smell… somewhere in this list, many eons ago, I read about
determining the front or back origination of gas smells. Whilst driving,
open a rear window, if this mitigates the smell, it’s probably a front
(engine bay) leakage. Only time I ever smelt it in front, was
hours…minutes before “fireball” got her name.
Most odour comes from the rear. Overfilling can cause it. Fuel sloshes and
sometimes will slosh around a poorly sealed gas filler pipe, not much, but a
drop will cause it. I isolated one in Fireball by a process of underfilling
tanks(3/4 full) and not noticing it, and overfilling and noticing it. Cure
was to pull and put new o-rings on the LH gas filler.
Age, wear, time and goblins are known to cause looseness of the clamps on
fuel lines in the trunk. As a matter of course, tighten everything you can
find.
The LH tank is also a prime candidate for rust and a small pinhole leak.
The arrangement of sealing the top of the filler is marginal at best, and
water can seep in. When was the last time you drained a bit from each tank
(underneath in the scuttle area) to check for water etc. I do this as part
of my yearly maintenance. Overnight park in a good work area, tanks s/b
less than 1/2 full, remove middle bolt and drain a bit into a glass jar -
any water, keep draining until there’s none. If you check the scuttle
underseam, is there a staining caused by gas evaporation?

I’ve sealed pinholes with JBweld, and got years out of it.

Hope this helps a bit for you

Ken>

Meanwhile (back at the ranch?), the '87 XJ6 has developed a gasoline aroma
which, with the recent under-bonnet fire thread, I’ve decided not to fool
with. At least it will make picking up the V12 VDP easy; I’ll just swap
one for the other. (Maybe I should just leave them both there and drive
over in the old Jeep occasionally to visit them, maybe take them on little
drives around the mechanic’s neighborhood for old time’s sake.)

An interesting side note on the gasoline smell: we had filled the car up
and run it on the left tank down to about 1/3. This morning, in addition
to noticing the aroma, my wife switched to the right tank and found it to
be at less than half despite not yet being selected at all. Related?
Probably, but how?

BT

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28

In reply to a message from Bill Thom sent Tue 20 Mar 2007:

Bill,

I thought I had a weak spark, and I overlooked FUEL…

I jerked around for a few months with a similar issue: Ran
perfectly: then not at all, next morning: ran just fine and
then stalled out & etc…

The bottom line was the FUEL TANK CHANGE SWITCH on the
dashboard did not perform ALL OF ITS FUNCTIONS all of the
time it had become INTERMITTENT …

It had become my habit to change to a fresh tank BEFORE
allowing one to empty of fuel. When I changed to the fresh
tank the gauge switched to the fresh tank and read properly
but the TANK VALVE DID NOT SWITCH…So, the engine continued
to draw from the nearly empty tank…I was running out of gas…

Additionally,I was mislead and unaware: after some hours,
fuel from the full tank would seep to the (now) empty
tank…( So I would run for some time and then breakdown…)

I removed the trip computer and then the tank switch…
BURNT CONTACTS !!! NEW SWITCH…Problem solved…YOu can
have a look at the plastic (plug?) that holds the wires and
contacts at the rear of this switch since my initial
problem… I have seen three other tank switches that have
shown the identical evidence of overheating (from high
resistance)

I also checked my tank valves and replaced questionable units.

Good luck, hope this helps. Inspect that switch !!!

Abner–
lilAbner
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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29

Bill Thom wrote:

Update.

In our last episode, the VDP-With-Attitude had healed itself by the
time I was ready to flat-bed her to the mechanic after 20-some hours
in the crank-no-fire mode (mood?). The Arrogant Mechanic has now had
her for several days and has been unable to find anything amiss, and
he is a really good diagnostician. As I predicted, she still fires
right up, every time without fail, and I further predict that she will
for weeks, or even months. So we decided that the only reasonable
course of action would be for me to retrieve her and anxiously await
her next automotive menopause, or whatever is going wrong
periodically, then trundle her onto a flat-bed (gurney/ambulance?) and
race her to the hospital before she realizes what is happening.

This morning found the VDP in her crank-no-fire mood, right in the
garage! That was good news of a sort because the A-M and I knew we’d
never find the fault while she was holding her own tourniquet in place,
if you get my drift.

BAM! Out came the AAA card! ZOOM! Over to the A-M! My luck held, she
still wouldn’t fire (I obviously took her by surprise). The A-M
confirmed within 30 seconds that there was no primary ignition, then
began ohming around. When he eventually began tracing the wire leading
from the amplifier to the distributor pick-up coil, the ohmmeter
suddenly came to life. It was like hearing the monitor hooked up to a
flat line patient start beeping.

Glory Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! Invisible
beneath the cruise control bellows is the other end of this wire. When
the A-M pulled back the insulating sheath, the combo male/female bullet
connector literally fell apart in his hands. Well, he happened to have
a couple of the correct connectors laying around, so he soldered one on,
plugged her in… FIXED!

I guess.

Wish me luck. As Frank mentioned about 500 emails ago, it’ll take a
couple of years for me to trust this car again.

BT===================================================
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30

Bravo! It is usually something simple with these cars.

Gregory
Victoria, Canada.
1966 Mark 2 3.8
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
2002 X-Type-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xj@jag-lovers.org [mailto:owner-xj@jag-lovers.org] On Behalf
Of Bill Thom
Sent: March 23, 2007 2:07 PM
To: JagMsgPost
Subject: Re: [xj] Crank, No Start '89 V12 VDP

The A-M
confirmed within 30 seconds that there was no primary ignition, then
began ohming around. When he eventually began tracing the wire leading
from the amplifier to the distributor pick-up coil, the ohmmeter
suddenly came to life. It was like hearing the monitor hooked up to a
flat line patient start beeping.

Glory Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! Invisible
beneath the cruise control bellows is the other end of this wire. When
the A-M pulled back the insulating sheath, the combo male/female bullet
connector literally fell apart in his hands. Well, he happened to have
a couple of the correct connectors laying around, so he soldered one on,

plugged her in… FIXED!

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
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31

Bill,

I’m of mixed feeling about this… Oh, sure, you now have a car with a
random problem fixed, but, hey, what about us? You’ve developed quite a
following with your brilliant posts about the VDP-With- Attitude and the
Arrogant-Mechanic. I’m going to miss your postings…

Seriously, good show! It’s always great to solve a problem like this, and
return to fearless, trouble free driving.

Space… Pace… Grace… and Reliability. The world is in harmony
again.

Ken===================================================
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32

In reply to a message from Ken Davis sent Sat 24 Mar 2007:

Bill:

VDP with attitude meets arrogant mechanic! Latter wins!
Stylish writer drives!

Glad to hear it was a simple thing and fixed.

What do you think this did for AM’s ego?

Next time: Hopefully, there is no next time.

Put it behnd you and drive it, but report to us in your style!

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

I’m of mixed feeling about this… Oh, sure, you now have a car with a
random problem fixed, but, hey, what about us? You’ve developed quite a
following with your brilliant posts about the VDP-With- Attitude and the
Arrogant-Mechanic. I’m going to miss your postings…
Seriously, good show! It’s always great to solve a problem like this, and
return to fearless, trouble free driving.
Space… Pace… Grace… and Reliability. The world is in harmony
again.

–
Carl Hutchins
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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33

Bill Thom wrote:

Bill Thom wrote:

Update.

This morning found the VDP in her crank-no-fire mood, right in the
garage! That was good news of a sort because the A-M and I knew we’d
never find the fault while she was holding her own tourniquet in
place, if you get my drift.
BAM! Out came the AAA card! ZOOM! Over to the A-M! My luck held,
she still wouldn’t fire (I obviously took her by surprise). The A-M
confirmed within 30 seconds that there was no primary ignition, then
began ohming around. When he eventually began tracing the wire
leading from the amplifier to the distributor pick-up coil, the
ohmmeter suddenly came to life. It was like hearing the monitor
hooked up to a flat line patient start beeping.

Glory Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! Invisible
beneath the cruise control bellows is the other end of this wire.
When the A-M pulled back the insulating sheath, the combo male/female
bullet connector literally fell apart in his hands. Well, he happened
to have a couple of the correct connectors laying around, so he
soldered one on, plugged her in… FIXED!

I guess.

Wish me luck. As Frank mentioned about 500 emails ago, it’ll take a
couple of years for me to trust this car again.

Likely shorter in this case as a fault, perfectly fitting the symptoms,
was found and rectified, Bill…:slight_smile:

I’d be very surprised if further problems of your previous ilk arise. A
job well done…!

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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34

Great news Bill! This is exactly the kind opf failure our SII had, right
after filling up at the local gas station – wouldn’t start & move away from
the pump. Pushed it over to the side and maeesed around to determine no fuel
coming up fr4om rear. Wiggled the wires to the pump and sure enough, the
spade on the pump’s ground was intermittent. It had finally broken the last
strand in the crimped wire. I hate crimps. Soldered the lug on properly and
off we went. Of course, that omits my walking home, pulling the pump from the
S3 and riding my bike back to the car with it and tools. Lazy as I am, the S3
is left with the S2’s pump and vice versa.
:]–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Bill Thom wrote:

This morning found the VDP in her crank-no-fire mood, right in the
garage! That was good news of a sort because the A-M and I knew we’d
never find the fault while she was holding her own tourniquet in place,
if you get my drift.
BAM! Out came the AAA card! ZOOM! Over to the A-M! My luck held, she
still wouldn’t fire (I obviously took her by surprise). The A-M
confirmed within 30 seconds that there was no primary ignition, then
began ohming around. When he eventually began tracing the wire leading
from the amplifier to the distributor pick-up coil, the ohmmeter
suddenly came to life. It was like hearing the monitor hooked up to a
flat line patient start beeping.

Glory Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! Invisible
beneath the cruise control bellows is the other end of this wire. When
the A-M pulled back the insulating sheath, the combo male/female bullet
connector literally fell apart in his hands. Well, he happened to have
a couple of the correct connectors laying around, so he soldered one on,
plugged her in… FIXED!

===================================================
The archives and FAQ will answer many queries on the XJ series…
FAQs: http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/index.html
Archives: Jag-lovers Forums - Jag-lovers

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