[xj] door fitting problems after sill replacement

Has anyone had this problem? I guess it is quite common but I am
most surprised I have encountered it as I was so careful about
bracing the door gaps etc before removing any metal.

On the driver’s side only the outer sill and the bottom half of the
inner sill were removed. I cannot see how the central pillar could
have moved out of its original position when it is attached to the
inner sill top face and this was sound and left in place. The
drivers door is hanging over an inch out of place where it should
meet the central pillar and very little adjustment can be made at
the front hinges and there is no rperceptible wear in the
hingepins!! the rear door shuts perfectly.

On the passenger side the whole inner sill was removed but a stout
square section steel tube was welded into the front door aperture
before any metal was taken out. On this side the doors are not as
badly out of alignment but the top of the front door overlaps the
rear door by a few mm (the chrome trims touch) and there is a much
larger gap at the bottom. No wear in the hinge pins though. Can you
simply pack the bootom hine on the front door with extra shims to
compensate?–
1974 Daimler Double-Six Vanden Plas Caramel Tuscan
South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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foy9999 wrote:

Has anyone had this problem? I guess it is quite common but I am
most surprised I have encountered it as I was so careful about
bracing the door gaps etc before removing any metal.

The most likely explanation is that you did not brace enough, mister…

After the fact; the door(s) should have been removed and some careful
measurements taken before welding was done, preferably on another intact
body. The doors represent a considerable weight, and while they could be
propped up (and was…?); with rust weakening the structure, some sagging
in various directions is to be expected…

Whether shimming the lower hinge as you suggest is a satisfactory
solution is uncertain. The door aperture will still be distorted and you
may not get proper sealing - and the door may still not quite fit due to
other factors. As you say; if the front door abuts the rear one on top
there may be sag pertaining to the top hinge as well. And whether
packing the lower hinge will rotate the door to clear at the rear is a
trial and error proposition…

The appropriate way is likely to cut an reweld to bring the assembly
back to its proper, precise dimensions - again using an intact body as a
template/measurment basis. You are in murky waters here, with little
data on an unusual situation…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>On the driver’s side only the outer sill and the bottom half of the

inner sill were removed. I cannot see how the central pillar could
have moved out of its original position when it is attached to the
inner sill top face and this was sound and left in place. The
drivers door is hanging over an inch out of place where it should
meet the central pillar and very little adjustment can be made at
the front hinges and there is no rperceptible wear in the
hingepins!! the rear door shuts perfectly.

On the passenger side the whole inner sill was removed but a stout
square section steel tube was welded into the front door aperture
before any metal was taken out. On this side the doors are not as
badly out of alignment but the top of the front door overlaps the
rear door by a few mm (the chrome trims touch) and there is a much
larger gap at the bottom. No wear in the hinge pins though. Can you
simply pack the bootom hine on the front door with extra shims to
compensate?

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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sun 30 Nov 2008:

Thanks for your reply.

The doors were removed during the operation (prior to bracing and
cutting out of old sills) nd only put back on once new sills welded
in. Have only tacked new ones in so they could be removed again but
I wouldn’t be able to squeeze the whole body on way or the other to
compensate. May need to just scrap the car of shave the doors which
seems a bit desperate.

I don’t hsve a spare rust free shell to compare with unfortunately
but have measured the two sides of the car in relation to each
other and I can’t find and differences in the dimensions.

I have posted pictures of the work done on the XJ photo album
section (under 1974 66 VDP SILL REPAIRS) which shows the bracing.
Guess I’ve just been unlucky.–
The original message included these comments:

The most likely explanation is that you did not brace enough, mister…
After the fact; the door(s) should have been removed and some careful


1974 Daimler Double-Six Vanden Plas Caramel Tuscan
South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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foy9999 wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Sun 30 Nov 2008:

Thanks for your reply.

The doors were removed during the operation (prior to bracing and
cutting out of old sills) nd only put back on once new sills welded
in. Have only tacked new ones in so they could be removed again but
I wouldn’t be able to squeeze the whole body on way or the other to
compensate. May need to just scrap the car of shave the doors which
seems a bit desperate.

I don’t hsve a spare rust free shell to compare with unfortunately
but have measured the two sides of the car in relation to each
other and I can’t find and differences in the dimensions.

I have posted pictures of the work done on the XJ photo album
section (under 1974 66 VDP SILL REPAIRS) which shows the bracing.
Guess I’ve just been unlucky.

That’s an understatement, mister - a lot of work done with uncertain
rewards…!

In fairness - it doesn’t take much deviation in that area to interfere
with door alignments…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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In reply to a message from foy9999 sent Sun 30 Nov 2008:

There should be at least half an inch of adjustment available on
the front door hinges.

Where the hinge bolts on to the A post, there is a plate inside,
which can be moved about quite a lot. Both sets of hinges moving
in conjunction may not give the full inch that you require but
should get close.

It may be necessary to unbolt the front wing to give full access
(and if you end up moving the door forward you’ll need to
reposition the wing anyway) but try slacking off all the bolts that
go into the A post and then positioning the door where you need it
( a helper is useful here - it’s a heavy beast with everything
fitted.) The roof drip channel moulding is usually the limiting
factor on how far you can move the door up/back/forward in its
aperture.–
The original message included these comments:

meet the central pillar and very little adjustment can be made at
the front hinges and there is no rperceptible wear in the
hingepins!! the rear door shuts perfectly.


al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from almcl sent Sun 30 Nov 2008:

I’m with Al on this one. There is a lot of adjustment on the door
hinges, it may be that time spent exploring in this area would be
better than initially assuming the aperture is incorrect.
When I changed my outer sills and repaired the inners I made sure
the weight of the car was supported at the central pillar to
prevent any sagging. The initial refit of the doors was miles out
(especially at the top, same problem). I supported the weight of
the front door on a jack and managed to get it all back by
adjustment.
If the rear door fits perfectly I don’t see that you can be too
far out dimensionally.
One thing I did decide was that if I were to do it again (!) I
would have the doors hung on perfectly correct to the roof and
central pillar then adjust the outer sill to fit before fully
welding.

Dave–
The original message included these comments:

There should be at least half an inch of adjustment available on
the front door hinges.
Where the hinge bolts on to the A post, there is a plate inside,
which can be moved about quite a lot. Both sets of hinges moving
in conjunction may not give the full inch that you require but
should get close.
It may be necessary to unbolt the front wing to give full access
(and if you end up moving the door forward you’ll need to
reposition the wing anyway) but try slacking off all the bolts that
go into the A post and then positioning the door where you need it
( a helper is useful here - it’s a heavy beast with everything


Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from almcl sent Sun 30 Nov 2008:

Many thanks Al.

I feel better already. I did utilise alot of the slack on the
hinges where they bolt to the front-door frame which improved
things but I was reluctant to touch the hinges which bolt to the
body as they weren’t disturbed at strip-down so I assumed they
would be best left there but it must be worth a try. I have good
access the them on one side anyway as I took the passenger side
wing of to do the sill repair there… Think I’ll do same on
driver’s side.

Many thanks.–
The original message included these comments:

There should be at least half an inch of adjustment available on
It may be necessary to unbolt the front wing to give full access


1974 Daimler Double-Six Vanden Plas Caramel Tuscan
South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from sparx sent Mon 1 Dec 2008:

Hi Dave.

As your advice is similar to Al’s my reply is much the same but I
really appreciate it.

Interestingly there is an article in this month Practical Classics
magazine about a MK2 Jag rebuild where the doors gaps were out
wildly. They reckoned the problem was connected to old damage to
the chassis leg and advocated cutting some metal out of the A
pillar to compensate plus the use of hydraulics…

which all seems like a nightmare to me and I would have to admit
defeat at that point.

Like yourself I was only replacing the outer sill and making local
repairs to the inner (on the drivers side) so was gobsmacked when
the doors wouldn’t fit again hence the bracing on the other side
whn I removed the complete inner sill.

I have factory Workshop Manuals for other vehicles (Suzuki Swift &
Hillman Imp) and they give detailed dimensions for all of the body
(well the Swift one does - the Imp is only underbady dimensions).
Wonder if there is such a thing for the Jag? I checked the XJ12
Series 2 manual and it has a section on alignment at 79.10 but this
only covers lateral/vertical chassis dimensions. No body apertures.
than–
The original message included these comments:

When I changed my outer sills and repaired the inners I made sure
One thing I did decide was that if I were to do it again (!) I


1974 Daimler Double-Six Vanden Plas Caramel Tuscan
South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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In reply to a message from foy9999 sent Mon 1 Dec 2008:

When I replaced the the inner and outer sills on my SII (pictures
here: http://www.almclwebpages.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2.html )
I didn’t brace the gaps. I took quite a lot of measurements,
though and on reassembly it was quite easy to get within 1/16’’.

However, door shut gaps on Series I & II XJs were often a problem.
If you get a chance to see the Sir William Lyons car, it has huge
differences between the gaps (up to half an inch on the same
side.) If they couldn’t get it right for ‘the boss’ what chance
have the rest of us? It wasn’t till the XJ40 that a single,
pressed side was contemplated. The door shuts on XJ40s improved as
a result.–
The original message included these comments:

things but I was reluctant to touch the hinges which bolt to the
body as they weren’t disturbed at strip-down so I assumed they
would be best left there but it must be worth a try. I have good


al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
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Al, I still wonder what these alleged problems with SII assembly were –
1/2" gaps?..

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1188712561

What gaps? Our SII & III are equally good, for non-robotic assembly…

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1173077945--
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

almcl wrote:

In reply to a message from foy9999 sent Mon 1 Dec 2008:

When I replaced the the inner and outer sills on my SII (pictures
here: http://www.almclwebpages.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2.html )
I didn’t brace the gaps. I took quite a lot of measurements,
though and on reassembly it was quite easy to get within 1/16’’.

However, door shut gaps on Series I & II XJs were often a problem.
If you get a chance to see the Sir William Lyons car, it has huge
differences between the gaps (up to half an inch on the same
side.) If they couldn’t get it right for ‘the boss’ what chance
have the rest of us? It wasn’t till the XJ40 that a single,
pressed side was contemplated. The door shuts on XJ40s improved as
a result.

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In reply to a message from Alex Cannara sent Mon 1 Dec 2008:

The problem is inconsistency, Alex. You can (and do) get perfectly
good examples (the SIII cars were generally better - John Egan’s
quality crusade was beginning to bear fruit) but there are also
ones where it is possible to get a flat hand between the edges of
the closed doors.

The problem stems from more than half a dozen panels having to be
exactly jigged together (by a sub contractor - the body plant was
not Jaguar owned in the 70s.) If all the tolerances worked out OK
a very good fit was possible, but it was also the case that some
bodies were so far out that the doors could not be fitted, ever.
These were rejected at the body plant.

In between lie examples like PHP 42G, Sir William’s SI. I was
being given a hard time about my SII until I showed the other half
his example, which is now with the JDHT. She accepted then that
our doors weren’t quite as bad as that.–
The original message included these comments:

Al, I still wonder what these alleged problems with SII assembly were –
1/2’’ gaps?..
What gaps? Our SII & III are equally good, for non-robotic assembly…


al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
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Got it. Did Jaguar take over body assembly in the late 70s?–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

almcl wrote:

In reply to a message from Alex Cannara sent Mon 1 Dec 2008:

The problem is inconsistency, Alex. You can (and do) get perfectly
good examples (the SIII cars were generally better - John Egan’s
quality crusade was beginning to bear fruit) but there are also
ones where it is possible to get a flat hand between the edges of
the closed doors.

The problem stems from more than half a dozen panels having to be
exactly jigged together (by a sub contractor - the body plant was
not Jaguar owned in the 70s.) If all the tolerances worked out OK
a very good fit was possible, but it was also the case that some
bodies were so far out that the doors could not be fitted, ever.
These were rejected at the body plant.

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In reply to a message from almcl sent Tue 2 Dec 2008:

That explains a lot to me Al about the gaps and asymmetry on my
Daimler. Despite being careful with the dimensions when I did my
bodywork I worked out the only way I was going to get good gaps at
the doors and bonnet was if the front wings (which I had replaced)
were longer, but not by the same amount each side.
Unfortunately it was not as simple as it sounds, changing one
dimension was going to have a knock-on effect elsewhere, mainly at
the bonnet. I’m not saying getting good gaps couldn’t be done, but
it was beyond me to work out where to make alterations and by how
much.
I decided I could live with the ‘‘Morganesque’’ look.

Dave–
The original message included these comments:

The problem is inconsistency, Alex. You can (and do) get perfectly
good examples (the SIII cars were generally better - John Egan’s
quality crusade was beginning to bear fruit) but there are also
ones where it is possible to get a flat hand between the edges of
the closed doors.
The problem stems from more than half a dozen panels having to be
exactly jigged together (by a sub contractor - the body plant was
not Jaguar owned in the 70s.) If all the tolerances worked out OK
a very good fit was possible, but it was also the case that some
bodies were so far out that the doors could not be fitted, ever.
These were rejected at the body plant.


Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from sparx sent Tue 2 Dec 2008:

Well guys, to all who replied, that was most informative and some
nice pics too.

One last thing struck me tho: When Practical Classics covered the
professional rebuild of a Series 1 SWB XJ6 the article advised that
the car should be on its wheels during body repairs so it
is ‘normally stressed’. Mine wasn’t but it will be interesting to
see if things sit differently when I take it down of the axle
stands it has been on for the last 2 years!

I should really get to it right now but its freezing in Scotland
right now.–
The original message included these comments:

it was beyond me to work out where to make alterations and by how


1974 Daimler Double-Six Vanden Plas Caramel Tuscan
South Lanarkshire, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from Alex Cannara sent Tue 2 Dec 2008:

What I think happened was that the Pressed Steel Fisher Plant at
Castle Bromwich was run as a British Leyland subsidiary until the
Edwardes plan of the late 70s required it to be shut/sold. Jaguar
took it over (1980?) and invested in new plant but kept many of the
traditional and not very efficient production techniques. It
wasn’t until the delayed XJ40 that things improved.

There’s some info here:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?xj4storyf.htm
and
http://www.macearchive.org/Media.html?Title=817#
and
http://tinyurl.com/6zbvv6--
The original message included these comments:

Got it. Did Jaguar take over body assembly in the late 70s?

Alex


al mclean '93 XJS 4.0 - '84 4.2 Daimler - '84 DD6
Telford, United Kingdom
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In reply to a message from almcl sent Wed 3 Dec 2008:

That aronline stuff is a damned good read Al. It’s nearly a two
coffee job but I slugged it out on one :slight_smile:

Dave–
The original message included these comments:

There’s some info here:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?xj4storyf.htm
and
http://www.macearchive.org/Media.html?Title=817#
and
http://tinyurl.com/6zbvv6


Dave Collishaw '79 S2 Daimler Sov '92 xj40
Peterborough, United Kingdom
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