[xj] Exhaust Question

XJ
21

Actually, Frank all voltage sources have internal resistance, which is what
limits the current they can deliver to an external cicuit. That’s why what
the ECU input looks like electrically is relevant to what the sensor’s
equivalent source resistance becoomes when two are in parallel. Since each
sensor is about 4000 Ohms, internally, putting 2 in parallel reduces that to
2000 Ohms, yet preserving the same voltage sourced – say V.

If the ECU’s input resistance is, say, 4000 Ohms, then the current into it is
increased from V/8000 to V/6000. And, changes in V are similarly affected.
That may indeed affect the ECU’s decision making.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:
[clip]

Hm, Alex, the O2 sensors do not work as resistances - they are actually
producing voltages to prod the ECU into proper actions. Coupled in
paralell the question is more if the ECU would lean out with one high,
or fatten according to one low…? :slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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22

Cannara wrote:

Actually, Frank all voltage sources have internal resistance, which is
what limits the current they can deliver to an external cicuit.
That’s why what the ECU input looks like electrically is relevant to
what the sensor’s equivalent source resistance becoomes when two are
in parallel. Since each sensor is about 4000 Ohms, internally,
putting 2 in parallel reduces that to 2000 Ohms, yet preserving the
same voltage sourced – say V.

If the ECU’s input resistance is, say, 4000 Ohms, then the current
into it is increased from V/8000 to V/6000. And, changes in V are
similarly affected. That may indeed affect the ECU’s decision making.

I wouldn’t doubt it, Alex - but which way is more uncertain…:slight_smile:

Since the O2 sensors produce voltages when hot and only influences the
ECU at that stage the internal resistance then may be different. Leaving
the question of whether the ECU is sensitive to voltage or to the
current levels from the device…

I suspect that where two or more sensors are used on modern engines they
have different inputs to ECU equivalents? But by and large to the
original post; if one sensor is enough two is more than enough - and
possibly counterproductive…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)> Frank Andersen wrote:

[clip]

Hm, Alex, the O2 sensors do not work as resistances - they are
actually producing voltages to prod the ECU into proper actions.
Coupled in paralell the question is more if the ECU would lean out
with one high, or fatten according to one low…? :slight_smile:

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23

Frank, the numbers I used for resistance were examples. The operational
result of putting two O2 sensors in parallel can only be determined by
detailed analysis of the circuits in the ECU itself. Yes, for multi-port
sensors, the control unit must also be maintaining each port’s readings so it
can modify each one’s input side (injector…) accordingly.

As far as voltage or current doing the work, the reality is that the ECU is
not an electrostatic device, so its input from the O2 sensor depends on some
current flow, and that flow is proportional to the source voltage in the
sensor, divided by the sum of the sensor’s resistance and the resistance of
the ECU’s input – just Ohm’s law.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:

I wouldn’t doubt it, Alex - but which way is more uncertain…:slight_smile:

Since the O2 sensors produce voltages when hot and only influences the
ECU at that stage the internal resistance then may be different. Leaving
the question of whether the ECU is sensitive to voltage or to the
current levels from the device…

I suspect that where two or more sensors are used on modern engines they
have different inputs to ECU equivalents? But by and large to the
original post; if one sensor is enough two is more than enough - and
possibly counterproductive…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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24

I’m not so sure about that, Frank. Take a Lambda engine and unplug the
sensor…the engine will surely run but it might not be “perfectly OK”.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Frank Andersen” franksue@xtra.co.nz

The engine will run perfectly OK without the O2 sensor/Lambda system,
Dave - it’s a legal, not a mechanical, requirement…:slight_smile:

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25

Cannara wrote:

Frank, the numbers I used for resistance were examples. The
operational result of putting two O2 sensors in parallel can only be
determined by detailed analysis of the circuits in the ECU itself.
Yes, for multi-port sensors, the control unit must also be maintaining
each port’s readings so it can modify each one’s input side
(injector…) accordingly.

As far as voltage or current doing the work, the reality is that the
ECU is not an electrostatic device, so its input from the O2 sensor
depends on some current flow, and that flow is proportional to the
source voltage in the sensor, divided by the sum of the sensor’s
resistance and the resistance of the ECU’s input – just Ohm’s law.

Considering that the system seem to obey Murphy’s law, Alex…:slight_smile:

The sensor produces electricity and with high resistance in the ECU the
sensor will likely not be taxed to the limit where its internal
resistance plays a part? Like a battery voltage will drop sharply if the
ECU doesn’t limit current flow - and obviously the sensor is meant to
deliver voltages. It’s reasonable to assume that two sensors in series
can deliver twice the current, but I don’t think it is called for. Ohms
law offer no solution to this…

If two sensors are used and they both show .8V (fat) or .2V (lean) I
doubt it will confuse the ECU. However, if one shows fat and the other
lean fuelling…? After all, the system is meant to rapidly flip/flop
between fat and lean…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)> Frank Andersen wrote:

I wouldn’t doubt it, Alex - but which way is more uncertain…:slight_smile:

Since the O2 sensors produce voltages when hot and only influences
the ECU at that stage the internal resistance then may be different.
Leaving the question of whether the ECU is sensitive to voltage or to
the current levels from the device…

I suspect that where two or more sensors are used on modern engines
they have different inputs to ECU equivalents? But by and large to
the original post; if one sensor is enough two is more than enough -
and possibly counterproductive…

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26

Doug Dwyer wrote:

I’m not so sure about that, Frank. Take a Lambda engine and unplug the
sensor…the engine will surely run but it might not be “perfectly
OK”.

Mine runs perfectly OK without the Lambda circuit, Doug…:slight_smile:

And while cold all engines have to run without it, as probably lot’s of
engines out there does hot with unbeknownst and unnoticed defective O2
sensors. Also, under other certain circumstances the Lambda goes ‘off
line’ so to speak. It may not adhere to emission standards without it.

But it’s required to set the bypass to correct CO levels with the O2
sensor disconnected. And without the sensor the engine should run OK on
that setting, but that said - the Lambda will correct for a lot of
system faults. So if it doesn’t run well without it there is a fault
somewhere…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)> From: “Frank Andersen” <@Frank_Andersen>

The engine will run perfectly OK without the O2 sensor/Lambda system,
Dave - it’s a legal, not a mechanical, requirement…:slight_smile:

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27

Yes, Frank, but your car has a non-Lambda ECU with different fuel mapping !

The point I’m trying to make is that taking a Lambda equipped car and take
the oxygen sensor out of the picture…which was one of the original
questions… without some sort of reaction. I think what will happen is
the mixture will be rich in mid-load driving.

True enough, when cold or at WOT, the Lambda input isn’t used but in all
other modes the ECU won’t be able to trim the mixture

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJRFrom: “Frank Andersen” franksue@xtra.co.nz

Mine runs perfectly OK without the Lambda circuit, Doug…:slight_smile:

Doug Dwyer wrote:

I’m not so sure about that, Frank. Take a Lambda engine and unplug the
sensor…the engine will surely run but it might not be “perfectly
OK”.

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28

Frank, if you review your electrical basics, you’ll see that summing the
internal resistance of both a sensor and a reader of that sensor, limits the
current that will flow, per volt generated. That’s the only point I’m making
re halving the source resistance by putting two identical sensors in parallel.
The ECU may not have been designed to handle such a change.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:
[clip]

Considering that the system seem to obey Murphy’s law, Alex…:slight_smile:

The sensor produces electricity and with high resistance in the ECU the
sensor will likely not be taxed to the limit where its internal
resistance plays a part? Like a battery voltage will drop sharply if the
ECU doesn’t limit current flow - and obviously the sensor is meant to
deliver voltages. It’s reasonable to assume that two sensors in series
can deliver twice the current, but I don’t think it is called for. Ohms
law offer no solution to this…

If two sensors are used and they both show .8V (fat) or .2V (lean) I
doubt it will confuse the ECU. However, if one shows fat and the other
lean fuelling…? After all, the system is meant to rapidly flip/flop
between fat and lean…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

Frank Andersen wrote:

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29

Doug Dwyer wrote:

Yes, Frank, but your car has a non-Lambda ECU with different fuel
mapping !

The point I’m trying to make is that taking a Lambda equipped car and
take the oxygen sensor out of the picture…which was one of the
original questions… without some sort of reaction. I think what
will happen is the mixture will be rich in mid-load driving.

True enough, when cold or at WOT, the Lambda input isn’t used but in
all other modes the ECU won’t be able to trim the mixture

True enough, Doug, but the xk won’t mind running a bit fat…

I’m far from advocating running without the sensor, only that the engine
will run OK, but likely more ‘dirty’, without it. As bypass is set to
recommended CO at 2000 rpms without the sensor, fitted with it or not,
this is what the ECU will ‘use’ as reference in either case…> From: “Frank Andersen” <@Frank_Andersen>

Mine runs perfectly OK without the Lambda circuit, Doug…:slight_smile:

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30

Cannara wrote:

Frank, if you review your electrical basics, you’ll see that summing
the internal resistance of both a sensor and a reader of that sensor,
limits the current that will flow, per volt generated. That’s the
only point I’m making re halving the source resistance by putting two
identical sensors in parallel. The ECU may not have been designed to
handle such a change.

Sure, Alex, but the O2 sensor sends electricity to the ECU and receives
nothing in return. The sensor acts like a battery in the circuit, sort
of…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>> If two sensors are used and they both show .8V (fat) or .2V (lean) I

doubt it will confuse the ECU. However, if one shows fat and the
other lean fuelling…? After all, the system is meant to rapidly
flip/flop between fat and lean…

Frank

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31

It’s a closed circuit, Frank, “nothing in return” implies a black hole.
whatever current flows into the ECU returns to the sensor via ground (if the
ground is actually good, which it usually isn’t :).

By the way, since we’re on the O2 sensor, anyone who has a 1-wire unit and
hasn’t added a ground wire to its case, could benefit from getting the old
multimeter out and measuring the resistance from the O2 sensor’s case to the
body. It should be close to 0. If not, a ground wire is easily added with a
stainless hose clamp.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure, Alex, but the O2 sensor sends electricity to the ECU and receives
nothing in return. The sensor acts like a battery in the circuit, sort
of…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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32

Cannara wrote:

It’s a closed circuit, Frank, “nothing in return” implies a black
hole. whatever current flows into the ECU returns to the sensor via
ground (if the ground is actually good, which it usually isn’t :).

Sure Alex, but we usually treat DC electricity as flowing from a source
through a user to a common ground…:-)> Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure, Alex, but the O2 sensor sends electricity to the ECU and
receives nothing in return. The sensor acts like a battery in the
circuit, sort of…:slight_smile:

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33

Is that the royal “We”, Frank? My schooling never concluded what you say, and
I’ve never observed it so. But, if you don’t believe me, read Kirchoff and
Maxwell/Heaviside again mate.
:]–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure Alex, but we usually treat DC electricity as flowing from a source
through a user to a common ground…:slight_smile:

Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure, Alex, but the O2 sensor sends electricity to the ECU and
receives nothing in return. The sensor acts like a battery in the
circuit, sort of…:slight_smile:

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34

Cannara wrote:

Is that the royal “We”, Frank? My schooling never concluded what you
say, and I’ve never observed it so. But, if you don’t believe me,
read Kirchoff and Maxwell/Heaviside again mate.
:]

Oh well, Alex - Thought we were dealing with O2 sensors and Ohms law…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)> Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure Alex, but we usually treat DC electricity as flowing from a
source through a user to a common ground…:slight_smile:

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35

Exactly Frank. So if you take your multimeter out, put it on low range,
connect - lead to the bolt holding the - batt lead to the body, push the +
lead to the starter’s case and have a mate crank the engine, what does your
meter say? Then just move the + lead somewhere else on the body “ground” and
repeat. Now what does it read?

The second reading shows about 0. The first reading shows the current
returning to the batt from the motor, matching exactly the current from the
batt into the motor. O2 sensor’s the same, but acts like a 4000-Ohm, .8 volt
battery. Currents don’t simply disappear into grounds. In fact, the car
isn’t grounded anyway the metal body is just a convenient way to avoid adding
a wire for the return current. Something GM couldn’t do on Corvettes!–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:

Oh well, Alex - Thought we were dealing with O2 sensors and Ohms law…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

Frank Andersen wrote:

Sure Alex, but we usually treat DC electricity as flowing from a
source through a user to a common ground…:slight_smile:

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36

There you go again! Using aussie without permission. Context OK but
punctuation,… tchk, tchk.

You do really need a sabbatical down under, don’t you? If you hurry you can
catch the Grand Prix & the Motor Show together. Or, take it easy and join us
for the Jaguar National Rally over Easter?

Fazal

read Kirchoff and Maxwell/Heaviside again mate.----- Original Message -----
From: “Cannara” cannara@sbcglobal.net

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37

Cannara wrote:

Exactly Frank. So if you take your multimeter out, put it on low
range, connect - lead to the bolt holding the - batt lead to the body,
push the + lead to the starter’s case and have a mate crank the
engine, what does your meter say? Then just move the + lead somewhere
else on the body “ground” and repeat. Now what does it read?

The second reading shows about 0. The first reading shows the current
returning to the batt from the motor, matching exactly the current
from the batt into the motor. O2 sensor’s the same, but acts like a
4000-Ohm, .8 volt battery. Currents don’t simply disappear into
grounds. In fact, the car isn’t grounded anyway the metal body is
just a convenient way to avoid adding a wire for the return current.
Something GM couldn’t do on Corvettes!

Yes, Alex - but we were talking about the reaction with 2 O2 sensors in
paralell…

The implication of the above again is that using Ohms law the internal
resistance of a battery is a routine part of current calculations. And
that, with two batteries in paralell, the current will increase as the
batteries’ internal resistance is than halved (or rather conductivity
is doubled). And as a collateral that current decrease with the
batteries in series and their internal resistance is doubled…:slight_smile:

The O2 sensor certainly influences the ECU, but the ECU doesn’t
influence the sensor. The question is still, how would two sensors in
paralell and at different voltage levels influence the ECU…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)> Frank Andersen wrote:

Oh well, Alex - Thought we were dealing with O2 sensors and Ohms
law…:slight_smile:

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38

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Wed 7 Mar 2007:

ALex, Frank & Fazal:

This thread is way beyond my understanding of electricity!

But, Corvettes do have a steel frame as a return!

The function of the sensor seems to be established. But the
function of the ECU on receiving different signals is yet in
question.

Thusly, we need someone with intimate knowledge of this ECU’s
capabilities. I suspect it would skip back and forth in it’s fuel
correction. I suspect an internal clock has something to do with
how often it detects the signal and makes changes. All probably not
noticeable in the driver’s seat.

So, set it up and drive it and see what happens. I suppose an
exhaust sniffer would be a way of measuring the final result of two
O2’s in parallel!

As usual, I learned a lot. What I will do with it is another
story…

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

The O2 sensor certainly influences the ECU, but the ECU doesn’t
influence the sensor. The question is still, how would two sensors in
paralell and at different voltage levels influence the ECU…

–
Carl Hutchins
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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39

Frank, the point has been missed in your back & forth on this. First you said
the fact that the Sensor is “grounded” meant current flowing back to it was
irrelevant, because currents “disappear” into grounds. That’s what my 1st
para below was correcting. In fact, as a technician, you certainly know the
influence of ground currents on measurements. We don’t want others to be mislead.

Further, “that current decrease with the batteries in series and their
internal resistance is doubled” is incorrect, as I’m sure you see, because in
series, 2 batts have twice the voltage as well as twice the internal
reisistance, thus current delivered to a short remains the same.

Finally, saying “the ECU doesn’t influence the sensor” is incorrect because
the internal properties of the ECU circuit connected to the sensor clearly are
part of the current loop formed by sensor-wire-ECU-ground-sensor. So anything
changing inside the ECU indeed affects the sensor’s signal, whether it could
damage the sensor or not.

Equally, any change in the sensor’s characteristics that the ECU hasn’t been
designed for, will change the effect of any sensor signal. This is all I was
ever saying about why paralleling two sensors could result in wrong ECU actions.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Frank Andersen wrote:

Yes, Alex - but we were talking about the reaction with 2 O2 sensors in
paralell…

The implication of the above again is that using Ohms law the internal
resistance of a battery is a routine part of current calculations. And
that, with two batteries in paralell, the current will increase as the
batteries’ internal resistance is than halved (or rather conductivity
is doubled). And as a collateral that current decrease with the
batteries in series and their internal resistance is doubled…:slight_smile:

The O2 sensor certainly influences the ECU, but the ECU doesn’t
influence the sensor. The question is still, how would two sensors in
paralell and at different voltage levels influence the ECU…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)

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40

But Frank’s not Aussie anyway! He’s one of those Scandinavian mates.
:]–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Fazal Cader wrote:

There you go again! Using aussie without permission. Context OK but
punctuation,… tchk, tchk.

You do really need a sabbatical down under, don’t you? If you hurry you
can catch the Grand Prix & the Motor Show together. Or, take it easy and
join us for the Jaguar National Rally over Easter?

Fazal

----- Original Message ----- From: “Cannara” <@Cannara2>

read Kirchoff and Maxwell/Heaviside again mate.

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