[xj] Pertronix Ignitor Install Tips Anyone?

cadjag wrote:

As to the Petronix. If the car ran before it on the Jaguar system,
I would go back. The Petronix is a step up from points, but so is
the Jaguar/GM so little is gained by a switch unless the GM
amplifier or other component is flakey.

If you go with the petronix, the amplifier is not needed as it is
redundant. And, I would follow the Petronix instructions on coil
and ballast. Remember, the base reason for a ballast is point
protection against higher voltage, so the Petronix folks believe
their unit needs that same protection.

Which is the bewildering part, Carl - our CE has no points to protect.
And with the ign amp redundant - where does the Pertronix get its firing
data…?

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)>All that is just the reasoning of a non Jaguar electrical genius or

any other kind.

Happy New Year

Good Luck.

Carl

The original message included these comments:

Thanks for the input. I picked up a fuel pressure gauge at
Sears (Made in China… grrr). I’m getting 41 psi at as the
line connects to the fuel rail (I installed a permanent
brass T fitting for testing) in the cranking and also run
ignition switch position, so the fuel seems good. A fuel
pressure gauge is a nice addition to my toolbox, either way.


Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 8 Jan 2008:

First I pulled the plugs and cleaned them.
Then I installed a new fuel regulator and no change (still
around 39 to 41 psi) where I tested the pressure, at the ‘‘T’’
I installed as the incoming line from the trunk hooks up
right at the fuel injection, back of the engine. Have not
checked the calibration on the pressure gauge yet.
I also ran a jumper from the + battery terminal to the +
side of the coil, and heard the relay snapping at the point
of connecting. Cranked motor, still no fire.
My next check area will be the injectors to see if they are
‘‘injecting’’. Perhaps I should introduce some fuel through
the air inlet to see if the fuel into the chamber will
ignite, if not momentarily.
Should be nice weather tomorrow, some time to do some
testing.
Cheers,
Joel
85 xj6 vdp
83 xj6–
Stealthkat
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Keep at it Joel!–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 8 Jan 2008:

First I pulled the plugs and cleaned them.
Then I installed a new fuel regulator and no change (still
around 39 to 41 psi) where I tested the pressure, at the ‘‘T’’
I installed as the incoming line from the trunk hooks up
right at the fuel injection, back of the engine. Have not
checked the calibration on the pressure gauge yet.
I also ran a jumper from the + battery terminal to the +
side of the coil, and heard the relay snapping at the point
of connecting. Cranked motor, still no fire.
My next check area will be the injectors to see if they are
‘‘injecting’’. Perhaps I should introduce some fuel through
the air inlet to see if the fuel into the chamber will
ignite, if not momentarily.
Should be nice weather tomorrow, some time to do some
testing.
Cheers,
Joel
85 xj6 vdp
83 xj6

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Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Tue 8 Jan 2008:

First I pulled the plugs and cleaned them.
Then I installed a new fuel regulator and no change (still
around 39 to 41 psi) where I tested the pressure, at the ‘‘T’’
I installed as the incoming line from the trunk hooks up
right at the fuel injection, back of the engine. Have not
checked the calibration on the pressure gauge yet.
I also ran a jumper from the + battery terminal to the +
side of the coil, and heard the relay snapping at the point
of connecting. Cranked motor, still no fire.
My next check area will be the injectors to see if they are
‘‘injecting’’. Perhaps I should introduce some fuel through
the air inlet to see if the fuel into the chamber will
ignite, if not momentarily.

It may ignite in the airways, Joel - with an almighty bang…:slight_smile:

Unless the plugs are already wet with fuel, signaling fuel present, it
would be safer just to ‘dram’ the engine through the sparkplugs; upend
plugs and fill them (very crude measure…), replace and crank. If fuel
delivery alone is the problem the engine should fire up briefly…

The high fuel pressure indicates an iffy gauge, though it’s a sort of
doubtful source. Mine fired up readily, probably as the pressure rose -
then drowned in a cloud of smoke as pressure reached 100 psi…:slight_smile:

While still somewhat dubius at your Pertronix set-up, if you have good
sparking there should be an occational fire even if the plugs are firing
randomly. Which reminds me; how is the Pertronix connected to the
distributor - and are both leads to the original apm disconnectedf rom
the coil…?

Checking the injectors is a must do, adiably and visually by an injector
test lamp as a first. Incidentallyl the jump to coil pos will activate
the main relay via ign key intercionnections.

As Alex aptly said; keep at it, Joel…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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In reply to a message from Stealthkat sent Thu 17 Jan 2008:

Joel:

Remember, fuel and air in the right combination and spark at the
right time in a chamber that has adequate compression.

So, priming is a good way to isolate the fuel issue.

Do you have a healthy blue spark from the center coil tower?

Do you have an equally good spark at the plug?

I was looking at some of the literature from one of my past
obsessions. The Petronix unit was highly touted as a substitute for
ther points and condensors of the Model A & B Fords. I believe it’s
utter simplicity should create a great spark in our cars.

I also saw some interestiong pictures of an A piston holed by lean
running and one holed by a dropped valve. But, that is another
story found elsewhere on this list, and I have withdrawn fromn the
field in that one.

As Frank and Alex say, persistence will win the day.

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

First I pulled the plugs and cleaned them.
Then I installed a new fuel regulator and no change (still
around 39 to 41 psi) where I tested the pressure, at the ‘‘T’’
I installed as the incoming line from the trunk hooks up
right at the fuel injection, back of the engine. Have not
checked the calibration on the pressure gauge yet.
I also ran a jumper from the + battery terminal to the +
side of the coil, and heard the relay snapping at the point
of connecting. Cranked motor, still no fire.
My next check area will be the injectors to see if they are
‘‘injecting’’. Perhaps I should introduce some fuel through


Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
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In reply to a message from Frank Andersen sent Thu 17 Jan 2008:

Frank wrote:
‘‘Checking the injectors is a must do, adiably and visually
by an injector test lamp as a first. Incidentallyl the jump
to coil pos will activate the main relay via ign key
intercionnections.’’

Frank,

An interesting development… re the Injector + inputs.
First, this afternoon I began by checking wires to the coil,
replaced a few (Lucas solidified from heat/age)and checked
connections throughout including the connections on the
injector power resistor, mounted on the passenger side
engine bay directly across from the distributor. I also
switched out a back up resistor I had.
I also doublechecked with Leighton, (British Parts
Northwest), who confirmed my Pertronix installation – No
original Jag Ignition amplifier (mounted on the end of the
intake manifold) required. (I originally disconnected it
and did NOT try to connect it ever with the Pertronix).
Just the red and black wire to the coil + and -.
Next, I Tested an injector which read about 2.5 to 2.6
ohms at 68 degrees, so seemed ok. Then, with the key on I
checked the voltage which should be coming in to the
injector connector – zilch !

So my question has to do with tracing the injector 

connector circuit, any fuses, circuit tests as to why the
injector connector(s) are not 12V and firing. The injector
wires disappear into the the two connectors and the wiring
harness between the intake mani and the firewall.

Cheers,
Joel
85 XJ6 vdp–
Stealthkat
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In reply to a message from Stealthkat sent Thu 17 Jan 2008:

re Correction on Injector + power test

Frank, I noticed in an earlier post (http://forums.jag-
lovers.org) you wrote:

''Ideally you should connect an injector test lamp over an
injector plug - and crank; the light should flicker. Or,
less >reliable, disconnect an injector plug, turn on
ignition and ‘‘measure voltage on each of the two connections
of the plug to >ground. Both should read 12V - indicating
that the main realy >is operating.’’

Unfortunately one of the Jag books I have (Haynes
Restoration Manual) is oversimplified, in fact seems to get
it wrong and said ‘‘With the multi-plug removed, switch the
meter to volts and, with ignition on, put the meter across
the two contacts in the plug. There should be a battery
voltage reading (around 12v). If not, it points to a break
in the circuit somewhere, or possibly a blown fuse.’’

The Haynes did not say to ground one multimeter lead and
test each ‘‘contact’’ in the plug… After I tested your way
(black multimeter to battery ground terminal) it showed 12v
at each contact. Also, when cranking, each contact showed
around 11v. And the spark plugs are showing a strong spark.

Cheers,
Joel
86 XJ6 vdp–
Stealthkat
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So my question has to do with tracing the injector
connector circuit, any fuses, circuit tests as to why the
injector connector(s) are not 12V and firing. The injector
wires disappear into the the two connectors and the wiring
harness between the intake mani and the firewall.

Cheers,
Joel
85 XJ6 vdp

G’day Joel,
You did check the white/black wire that goes from the coil
negative terminal to the ECU in the boot via the white bullet connector in
the centre of this pic? If it’s missing/broken the injectors won’t fire.

http://tiny.cc/Nb9xo

regards,
John Hudson
Brisbane Australia
71 SI XJ6, 85 SIII XJ6----- Original Message -----
From: “Stealthkat” jaimages@aol.com
To: xj@jag-lovers.org
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [xj] Pertronix Ignitor Install Tips Anyone ?

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In reply to a message from John Hudson sent Sat 19 Jan 2008:

John:

You know the circuitry far better than I. I agree, something has to
tell the ECU to fire the injectors and when to do it. No other
place but at the distributor ion this system to do it.

Joel:

Because of Jolhn and others, I expect you to report VROOOm fom the
beautiful Ojai valley in southern California.

How is McGrath State Park on the ocean doing? I helped build that
too in the late sixties!

Carl–
The original message included these comments:

        You did check the white/black wire that goes from the coil 

negative terminal to the ECU in the boot via the white bullet connector in
the centre of this pic? If it’s missing/broken the injectors won’t fire.


Carl Hutchins
Walnut Creek, California, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php

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In reply to a message from cadjag sent Sat 19 Jan 2008:

Hi Carl,

I expect McGrath park is named after the McGrath family.
Judge McGrath is still practicing in VTA county. I hope to
have the problems isolated down to the solution this
weekend, which I’ll post.

John, yes I did check the ‘‘bullet’’ wire from the - side of
the coil to the ecm, and replaced it with a fresh wire. As I
made a correction a couple posts earlier, I am getting
voltage to each of the two Injector plug contacts I tested.

The black wire from the Pertronix ignition (dist) also goes
to the - side of the coil. I pulled the dist. cap and
positioned the pick up so, as I turned the rotor slightly
the electric eye points would meet and make contact. I
noticed a very bright spark (jump) from the neg. side of the
(uncovered) coil to the HT coil center lead (goes to center
of dist). The HT lead metal was exposed. I covered it up
with electrical tape and it did not ‘‘jump’’ when triggered,
but still no start. The good news is the pertronix seems to
be providing juice.

I expect the next step is to check the coil, possibly
replace the spark plugs for fouling (tho I have spark there
when cranked) and double check the HT lead.

Determined,
Joel 85 xj6 vdp
(and wayyyy too many other cars (projects) to list :slight_smile:

P.S. Out of idle curiosity I wonder if the dist is 180
degrees off. It’s happened before. I recall it’s easy to
jump out 180 as the dist doesn’t need to pop out much due to
the dowel (’‘offset dog and pin’’ according to the Haynes Jag
xj6 #49010 book I have, page 70) configuration. I would
think I’d still hear some popping from the engine however if
it were off time.–
Stealthkat
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Joel, the injector drive circuit inside the ECU is a bit complex, but the net
effect for measurement with a good voltmeter should be to see about 12V above
ground when the injectors are actuated, but not connected. It’s actually best
to put an oscilloscope on the lead from the resistor pack, because then you
can see if the drive transistor inside the ECU is goofy. In any case, you
should be able to hear the injectors clicking by holding a small hose to them
from your ear, even when cranking.–
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from Stealthkat sent Thu 17 Jan 2008:

re Correction on Injector + power test

Frank, I noticed in an earlier post (http://forums.jag-
lovers.org) you wrote:

''Ideally you should connect an injector test lamp over an
injector plug - and crank; the light should flicker. Or,

less >reliable, disconnect an injector plug, turn on
ignition and ‘‘measure voltage on each of the two connections
of the plug to >ground. Both should read 12V - indicating
that the main realy >is operating.’’

Unfortunately one of the Jag books I have (Haynes
Restoration Manual) is oversimplified, in fact seems to get
it wrong and said ‘‘With the multi-plug removed, switch the
meter to volts and, with ignition on, put the meter across
the two contacts in the plug. There should be a battery
voltage reading (around 12v). If not, it points to a break
in the circuit somewhere, or possibly a blown fuse.’’

The Haynes did not say to ground one multimeter lead and
test each ‘‘contact’’ in the plug… After I tested your way
(black multimeter to battery ground terminal) it showed 12v
at each contact. Also, when cranking, each contact showed
around 11v. And the spark plugs are showing a strong spark.

Cheers,
Joel
86 XJ6 vdp

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Joel, this may help on dist & cap alignment…

http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1078305428--
Alex
79xj6L SII (BRG + wires)
86xj6 SIII (Black)
61 Sprite MkII (Red)
Menlo Park, Calif.

Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from cadjag sent Sat 19 Jan 2008:

P.S. Out of idle curiosity I wonder if the dist is 180
degrees off. It’s happened before. I recall it’s easy to
jump out 180 as the dist doesn’t need to pop out much due to
the dowel (‘‘offset dog and pin’’ according to the Haynes Jag
xj6 #49010 book I have, page 70) configuration. I would
think I’d still hear some popping from the engine however if
it were off time.

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Stealthkat wrote:

An interesting development… re the Injector + inputs.
First, this afternoon I began by checking wires to the coil,
replaced a few (Lucas solidified from heat/age)and checked
connections throughout including the connections on the
injector power resistor, mounted on the passenger side
engine bay directly across from the distributor. I also
switched out a back up resistor I had.

And rechecked that power is present and correct after the work, Joel…?

I also doublechecked with Leighton, (British Parts
Northwest), who confirmed my Pertronix installation – No
original Jag Ignition amplifier (mounted on the end of the
intake manifold) required. (I originally disconnected it
and did NOT try to connect it ever with the Pertronix).
Just the red and black wire to the coil + and -.

And you have the two extra wires connected to the coil neg - one going
to the tacho and, more essential, one to the ECU…just joking - but
make sure they are connected to something. Incidentally; if the
injectors are firing it means the coil neg to ECU is present and correct…

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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Stealthkat wrote:

In reply to a message from cadjag sent Sat 19 Jan 2008:

The black wire from the Pertronix ignition (dist) also goes
to the - side of the coil. I pulled the dist. cap and
positioned the pick up so, as I turned the rotor slightly
the electric eye points would meet and make contact. I
noticed a very bright spark (jump) from the neg. side of the
(uncovered) coil to the HT coil center lead (goes to center
of dist). The HT lead metal was exposed. I covered it up
with electrical tape and it did not ‘‘jump’’ when triggered,
but still no start. The good news is the pertronix seems to
be providing juice.

I expect the next step is to check the coil, possibly
replace the spark plugs for fouling (tho I have spark there
when cranked) and double check the HT lead.

There is something supicious about that arcing, Joel - so yes, it
warrants a double check…

But…are you sure of your ignition timing? Rotor to #6 (frontmost) and
both its valves closed with engine at TDC? And ignition sequence…?

This is getting so weird, and the Pertronix seems to be delivering, so a
double check on everything is really warranted…:slight_smile:

Frank
xj6 85 Sov Europe (UK/NZ)===================================================
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