[xj-s] Front brake job is going great but have 1 big question

This is the second time I have done the front in 5000 mile. I
think I did something wrong the first time. My steering wheel
pulls back and forth when I apply the brakes.

Not sure if I didn’t clean everything properly before re-assembling
the first time, if it was the new ‘‘Kleen Wheels’’ I installed and
maybe warped the rotors, or if I didn’t install the shims between
caliper and steering lever.

Here is my question.
I have assembled everything back together and cleaned everything
very well. I had the rotors turned very little mechanic said. I
have tightened the 2 bolts at top of caliper and notice the bottom
bolt has about a 0.040’’ gap between the Caliper and steering
lever. From what I have been able to read up on, this is where
shims are to be installed if necessary. I can’t remember if there
were shims when I did these brakes the first time or not.
Should I install shims now? Will I need an alignment after I do?
It drove straight before.

Thanks in advance,
Chris–
Chris
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In reply to a message from Chris111 sent Sun 1 May 2005:

If the steering wheel ‘‘pulls back and forth’’ feels more like a
pulsation then your rotors are too thin and can’t properly
dissipate the heat of braking. Replace your pads and rotors with a
brand name (I like Bendix) and you should be ok.

Roger–
rogerlaf
Sutton, Massachusetts, United States
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In reply to a message from Chris111 sent Sun 1 May 2005:

Chris
Refresh here. What year is it. I would go look at mine for you but
it is still at my buddies house getting the new interior made. Post
the year and hopefully someone can let you know.
PS get rid of those ‘‘klean wheels’’. They eliminate brake dust by
stopping ventilation. Stopping ventilation of really hot brake
parts isn’t a good idea. If you have a brake dust issue its usually
do to cheap pads or excessive brake temps.–
Rob Wade
Windsor Ontario, Canada
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I’ll bet half the Jags out there are missing the shims, as they fall out on
caliper removal and get lost, or whoever is doing the caliper job hears them
tinkle to the floor but can’t figure out where they came from. Not the end
of the world, IMHO, but you have to have your toe-in reset if they go
missing…or if you add them back in. I don’t think would have any bearing
on premature pad wear-out.

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA
1987 Ser III XJ6
1988 XJS V12

or if I didn’t install the shims between
caliper and steering lever.

Should I install shims now? Will I need an alignment after I do?
It drove straight before.

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: “Chris111” chall@sympatico.ca

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sun 1 May 2005:

It is a 1988 XJS. The rotors and pads only have 5000 miles on
them. They are brembo rotors and Greenstuff pads. I believe the
rotors warpped because of the ‘‘Kleen Wheels’’. I have removed them.

Back to the shims. If my alignment and tire ware was good before,
are you saying I should just tighten it back up and ignore
shimming? If I add shims I would have to do an alignment? I just
can’t remember if it had shims originally or not.–
Chris
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If the shims were missing the last time the car was aligned then the toe-in
was already reset.

Personally, I’d put shims back in again and have the toe-in reset, again.
But only because you said there was a .040" gap. That’s fairly large,
probably 4x larger than I’ve seen over the years (not that my experience
represents the final word).

Doug Dwyer
Longview, Washington USA
1987 Ser III XJ6
1988 XJS V12

Back to the shims. If my alignment and tire ware was good before,
are you saying I should just tighten it back up and ignore
shimming? If I add shims I would have to do an alignment? I just
can’t remember if it had shims originally or not.

// please trim quoted text to context onlyFrom: “Chris111” chall@sympatico.ca

In reply to a message from Doug Dwyer sent Sun 1 May 2005:

The rack and pinion is being changed in 2 weeks. Maybe I should do
nothing for now and wait till new rack is installed and have them
re-shim it.–
Chris
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In reply to a message from Chris111 sent Sun 1 May 2005:

Chris
Run it without the shims and when they re-do the rack and set the
alignment it will be set up for no shims. This way you won’t have
to worry about ‘‘loosing’’ the shims again.–
Rob Wade
Windsor Ontario, Canada
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Chris

When I did mine a year ago the drivers side didn’t have shims on the lower
bolt. The passenger side had two. I thought this was wrong, but carefully
measure the distance in between the inside rotor surface and the caliper it
should be equal top to bottom. I believe this is what the shim is for on the
bottom bolt. As a precaution I had the front end aligned, but I also
replaced the rack bushings,wheel bearings, brakes, rebuilt calipers,
tierods, etc.
That should be done for a while now.

Dan

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In reply to a message from Daniel Cusick sent Sun 1 May 2005:

UPDATE.

New rotors and pads. Took car for a test drive and steering wheel
still moves back and forth when I apply the brakes.

The rack and pionion and high pressure steering hose is leaking.
Could this be the problem?

Can you think of anything else that could pull a steering wheel
back and forth when brakes are applied?

Thanks in advance,
Chris–
Chris
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In reply to a message from Daniel Cusick sent Sun 1 May 2005:

Thanks Dan, I will check that measurement. If it is out, could
this cause the wheel to move back and forth?–
Chris
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In reply to a message from Chris111 sent Sun 1 May 2005:

If you are getting vibration in the steering during braking
then you problem is in the front end. Check all the basics
first.
Ball joints for any play.

Tie rod ends for any play.

Steering gear mounting bushes for wear.

You need to measure runout on the brake rotors to be sure
if that is your problem.

When you had your rotors resurfaced did you remove them from
the hub? Or did you leave them attached? If the rotors are
not bolted on the hub properly, ie. rust/dirt between mating
surfaces, then you will have a rotor that is not true in
relation to the hub.

Another thing to check for on this type of front hub setup is
make sure the spindle is perpendicular to the knuckle.
Otherwise it will rotate in a wobble and since the caliper is
mounted to the knuckle it will cause a pulsation. This is
highly unlikely unless you had a recent accident.

Also toss those ‘‘kleen wheels’’. No auto manufacurer
recommends them due to cuting off ventilation. Believe it or
not the wheels are part of what goes into brake and
suspension design. When you make any changes you are taking a
risk.

Good luck and please let us know the results.

If you do not have a dial indicator to measure runout it may
be worth your while to take it in to have it measured. A
decent dial indicator is more than the hour labor to get it
measured.–
Greg 1985 XJS HE DANA rear
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Chris,

You should shim that gap. The parts book shows two thicknesses,
0.004 and 0.010, so 0.040 sounds like a lot. I suppose you could
stack them up, but I would be wondering why it’s so big. If there are
not enough shims tighten the bolt will close the gap, throwing the
toe-in out. So regardless, you have to get it aligned after buttoning it up.

Ed Sowell
76 XJ-S
http://www.efsowell.us/ed/myJag.html

Here is my question.
I have assembled everything back together and cleaned everything
very well. I had the rotors turned very little mechanic said. I
have tightened the 2 bolts at top of caliper and notice the bottom
bolt has about a 0.040’’ gap between the Caliper and steering
lever. From what I have been able to read up on, this is where
shims are to be installed if necessary. I can’t remember if there
were shims when I did these brakes the first time or not.
Should I install shims now? Will I need an alignment after I do?
It drove straight before.

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In reply to a message from Ed Sowell sent Sun 1 May 2005:

When I removed the rotors to take them in for resurfacing, I
separated the hub from the rotor and sanded were they join and
bolted them back together. TThey were turnred assembled.

I just had the car in and everything on the front end was tight,
the mechaic said.

When I measure the .040’’ gap, this was were the lower steering
lever and caliper meet. I believe now I need to measure the gap
between pad and rotor after assembled.–
Chris
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In reply to a message from Nigel sent Sun 1 May 2005:

Chris
Are you sure you only get the vibration under braking? It sounds
like you have done everything correctly (if you cleaned the
mounting surface between the hub and rotor) Did you check the
inside surface of the rotor to make sure there isn’t any rust stuck
on there?? If there is ANY junk between them it will misalign the
hub and rotor. The reason I ask if you only get it under braking is
that you may have a bad tire in the front with a belt causing a
pulsation. You usually will have a vibration as your driving
though. Just to check rotate the front tires to the rear and vis
versa. If the vibration changes AT ALL you know you have a bad tire.
If you still have a problem I would suggest having it looked at by
a licenced mechanic. From everything you have described (new pads
and rotors, f/e checked etc. there is no logical reason for you to
have a pulsation. Are the rack bushings ok. Oil leaks will kill
these!!–
Rob Wade
Windsor Ontario, Canada
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When I measure the .040’’ gap, this was were the lower steering
lever and caliper meet.

Yes, that’s where the shims go.

I believe now I need to measure the gap
between pad and rotor after assembled.

Why?

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Chris, read up on the subject Kirbys XJS book, latest edition describes the
process on page 404, front brake caliper shimming.
The measurement is between the steering arm and caliper AT the LONG bolt.
Not between pad and disc

Nigel
XJS 4 Litre 1993 Ragtop
Manchester
UK

When I measure the .040’’ gap, this was were the lower steering
lever and caliper meet. I believe now I need to measure the gap
between pad and rotor after assembled.–
Chris
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Chris
I’ve had “kleen wheels” shields for years just to keep the front wheels
clean (chrome lattice wheels, hard to clean).

I never had any overheating problem with normal street driving.

Steve S.
Lexington, MA USA
'91 xj-s v12 coupe

From: “Chris111” chall@sympatico.ca
2005:

It is a 1988 XJS. The rotors and pads only have 5000 miles on
them. They are brembo rotors and Greenstuff pads. I believe the
rotors warpped because of the ‘‘Kleen Wheels’’. I have removed them.

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In reply to a message from stephen sarmanian sent Mon 2 May 2005:

HI and I am telling you again, you should have the front calipers
rebuilt, some of the pistons are seizing, and the will only come
out on one side of the disc, and do put the shimms back in the left
caliper. Pajtas–
jaguarjoe 54 XK 120 rdstr 1961 MKIX 94 XJ6
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Maybe I misrepresented what I said earlier. So here’s a little bit of an
explanation as to what I said.

Dan

FRONT BRAKE CALIPER SHIMMING: As mentioned above, there is a shim (or a
couple of shims) between the steering arm and the brake caliper at the long
bolt. The objective of this shim is to compensate for variations in the
thickness of the caliper mounting lug to avoid stressing the steering lever
as the bolts are tightened. If your plan is to take things apart and put
them back together with the same hub carrier, caliper, and steering lever,
you need to take care not to drop or lose those shims when you take the long
bolt out. If you put it back together with the same shims in place, you
should be OK.

If you do plan to replace something – exchanging the caliper for a rebuilt,
for example – you will need to measure for the correct shim thickness.
Mount the steering lever with its short bolt tight and the long bolt
threaded in but not tightened; you may want to fit a flat washer on the
short bolt between the dust shield and the steering arm to make up for a
bracket attached to the caliper being omitted here. Measure between
steering arm and upright at the long bolt, and subtract the thickness of the
caliper mount lug to determine the shims needed.

New shims are available from Jaguar in two thicknesses: C44146/1 is 0.004"
thick and C44146/2 is 0.010" thick. It’s really nothing more than a thin
flat washer, so you could just buy arbor shims locally or cut washers out of
shim stock.

Whenever changing shims or anything else involved in this steering arm
attachment, the car will need a new alignment afterwards.

It is apparent that the shimming between the caliper and steering lever was
originally the only place shims were intended to be used here. Step 4 of
Section 70.10.10 and step 3 of Section 70.55.02 in the ROM clearly indicate
this is the only place to be looking for shims upon disassembly. However,
apparently Jaguar decided that shims might also be needed between the
caliper and the upright, either to center the caliper or to align it
properly. There’s no excuse for the machining incompetence that would
require shims here for either reason, but Craig Sawyers and others report
that their cars came with shims in these locations. Steps 10-14 of Section
70.10.10 and step 5 of section 70.55.02 discuss shims between caliper and
upright for centering and aligning the caliper.

The Parts Catalogue doesn’t list any shims for between caliper and upright,
but obviously the shims intended for between caliper and steering lever will
serve.

It’s pretty easy to get shims in between the caliper and steering lever.
Getting shims between caliper and upright is nowhere near as easy.

If you add shims between the caliper and the upright, you need to be
removing the same thickness of shims between the caliper and the steering
lever!

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