[xj-s] GIM5002 or Bosch 0 227 100 139

XJ-S
1

Folks,

one of my ignition amps has given up the ghost on the Marelli V12.
I was suprised to find that both my amps were different, and
neither seemed to be the ‘correct’ one.

The one which has given up is a Unipart GIM5002, the other one is a
Bosch 0 227 100 139.

Anybody know where I can get one of these? (I am assuming either
will be cheaper than the standard DAC11520 at �170)

Interestingly, before it gave up, the Unipart one gives a MUCH
smoother idle than the Bosch, so ideally two of those might be
nice?!

Thanks,

Pete–
PBC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

// please trim quoted text to context only

2

PBC wrote:

one of my ignition amps has given up the ghost on the Marelli V12. I
was suprised to find that both my amps were different, and neither
seemed to be the ‘correct’ one.

The one which has given up is a Unipart GIM5002, the other one is a
Bosch 0 227 100 139.

Anybody know where I can get one of these? (I am assuming either will
be cheaper than the standard DAC11520 at �170)

Interestingly, before it gave up, the Unipart one gives a MUCH
smoother idle than the Bosch, so ideally two of those might be
nice?!

Since the Marelli system requires two amps to run, I’m curious how
you could tell that one provides a smoother idle than the other?

– Kirbert

// please trim quoted text to context only

3

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Mon 10 Apr 2006:

Ah - okay Kirby, what I meant was a smoother exhaust output at
idle… The Unipart GIM5002 was always a very smooth flow, the
Bosch has always felt lumpy, as if it had a very slight misfire…
Interestingly, the lumpy one is on the A bank, and had been
replaced after my one and only Marelli mishap.

I suspect the GIM5002 was original, and the Bosch the best the
garage could get their hands on after the meltdown (it appears to
have been used on Saab and Volvos of similar age)

The odd thing is that I cannot find ANYTHING on the GIM5002, not
even on google (nothing I can read anyhow) - any dealers in the
states with an online unipart catalogue??

Cheers!

Pete–
The original message included these comments:

Since the Marelli system requires two amps to run, I’m curious how
you could tell that one provides a smoother idle than the other?

–
PBC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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4

In reply to a message from PBC sent Tue 11 Apr 2006:

Pete:

I’d be quite interested in the outcome of your search, and of the
resulting performance. You are possibly the first person to
suggest using another ignition amp for the Marelli part, and to
have some experience with this.

I doubt if the GIM5002 was OEM, though.

Have you switched the amps around to see if the idle behavior you
reported switches to the other bank? This would tell us if it is
the amp, I would guess.

Thanks!–
The original message included these comments:

I suspect the GIM5002 was original, and the Bosch the best the
garage could get their hands on after the meltdown (it appears to

–
Mike, 1990 5.3 XJS Convertible, ‘Caterwaul’
Lakewood, OH, United States
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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5

PBC wrote:

Ah - okay Kirby, what I meant was a smoother exhaust output at
idle… The Unipart GIM5002 was always a very smooth flow, the
Bosch has always felt lumpy, as if it had a very slight misfire…

I kinda doubt this has anything to do with the ign amp. On the H.E.,
more often than not the idle is a bit lumpy and it’s all in one side,
because one side just happens to run a hair leaner than the other.
Remember that the idle fuel mixture adjuster is global, not one per
bank (as it should have been!)

Interestingly, the lumpy one is on the A bank, and had been replaced
after my one and only Marelli mishap.

Your Marelli mishap was bad enough to require a new ign amp? How
much else was required?

I suspect the GIM5002 was original, and the Bosch the best the
garage could get their hands on after the meltdown (it appears to have
been used on Saab and Volvos of similar age)

Sounds like they done good. Once you have two working amps again, if
the lumpiness remains I’d suggest swapping amps and seeing if the
lumpiness goes with it.

– Kirbert

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6

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 11 Apr 2006:

Okay chaps here’s what I shall do. I’ll get hold of one of the
Bosch ignition amps and see what happens, and let everyone know.

I know lots of people would like to have an alternative to the OEM
part!

Cheers

Pete–
PBC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

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7

In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Tue 11 Apr 2006:

The Marelli mishap took out the distributor, rotor arm, amplifier,
and the cat… quite a pricey little event really!

Unfortunately it happened BEFORE I became more familiar with the
XJS, and before reading ‘the book’…–
The original message included these comments:

Your Marelli mishap was bad enough to require a new ign amp? How
much else was required?

–
PBC
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–
–Support Jag-lovers - Donate at http://www.jag-lovers.org/donate04.php –

// please trim quoted text to context only

8

I’m resurrecting this old thread because it concerns information given on P139 of “The Book” and there is some concern about Bosch PN: 0 227 100 139 (BIM137 as well)

Currently I’m helping a guy who seems to have a problematic Marelli ignition, and per The Book, has acquired two BIM139 modules (which have if anything seemed to make his problem worse) although I’m not sure that’s BIM139’s fault. (I still have concerns about BIM 139 though, and that prompted me to search the forums and find the origin thread for the info on P139).

Per several sources the BIM139 module expects a Hall effect input (which would be a square wave), but also controls Dwell (suggesting it triggers at the start of that square wave? & then adds +xMs for dwell). Not sure if it’s expecting a positive or negative square wave. (I think negative, which would be compatible).

Sources:
https://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=106443
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25361
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=54722
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18144
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=MembersPage%2FGrmRacer%2FGrmIgnition
https://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-25737.html

This suggest that the BIM139 will alter timing by a few mS under some conditions. (More important at high RPM).

Per dinoplex.org and discussions with the guru running that site, the Microplex MED### ECU controls coil dwell rather than the Amp/Ignition Module/Igniter.

I know for a fact that BIM124’s can work with a re-pin of one wire in the OEM connector harness, as they, like the original modules are not smart and do not control dwell. I helped one guy adapt them to his system and they worked fine.

(See my post #15 here for instructions): https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xjs-x27-32/marelli-ignition-amplifier-test-201800/ if further interested.

I’m given to understand that there is an about +5V signal is generated BY the Amp on the +Trigger pin, and the MED123 pulls that signal to ground (presumably to start dwell), and then returns to high to trigger the spark. (Square Wave). (Assuming it works the same way as the near identical looking MED120 … looking at the internal schematics & comparing).

The Jag uses Marelli BKL ignition module variants, as do a number of Ferrari’s using the Microplex. (They also use the same/similar coils).

Ferraris use

  • BKL 3B
  • BKL BA

From Ferrari Chat these are suggested substitutes:

  • Ignition Module Marelli BKL 3B
  • BKL 3BD
  • 064833031010
  • 064833036010
  • 064833131010
  • 581701010000
  • 581701020000
  • 64833031
  • 64833031010
  • 64833036
  • 64833131
  • 940038535
  • 940038535010
  • AEI400B
  • V86BB12A199AA

Alternatives

  • Facet 9.4030
  • BERU ZM061 (0 040 401 061)
  • Hella 5DA 006 623-431
  • Hüco 13 8083
  • Lucas DAB801
  • Meat-Doria 10043
  • Motorcraft EDY13
  • Valeo 245537
  • 2595026
  • 2595029
  • Valeo (I) CD883

OEM / Wholesale

  • Bresch BKL3B
  • Ducati 28740331A
  • Ford 1 637 546
  • HB Autoelektrik 19010053
  • Intermotor 15030
  • Transpo XM631
  • Unipoint IM702

Applications: ALFA ROMEO 1642. 0i Turbo 1989- ON FERRARI GT0- 328 1989- ON Testa Rossa 1989- FIAT Argenta120 1990- ON Croma2 1986- ON Cromao2. 0 Turbo 1986- ON Tempra1. 8 1990- ON Tipo1. 8 IE16v 1990- ON Uno1. 3 Turbo 1989- ON LANCIA Delta1. 8, 2. 0 1990- ON DeltaH. F. 1. 6 1990- ON DeltaH. F. Turbo 1. 6 1990- ON Prisma1. 6 1988- ON Prisma4x4 1988- ON Thema2. 0 Turbo 16V 1988- ON Thema2. 9 (8. 32 Eng. F. L)3. 0 1988- ON

Jaguar’s variant numbers:
DAC4607, DAC11677, DAC11520, DBC11677,
Various Images with markings: Magneti Marelli: BKL 3BC.

BKL 3BC
BKL 3BC1600×1200 177 KB

We know from the Jaguar Electrical Guides that the BKL 3BC pinout is:

1: Coil negative
2: Module Ground
3: Signal Ground (20Mv AC increasing w/ RPM)
4: +12V Batt Power
5: NC
6: Trigger +3V (0.2V to +3V increasing w/ rpm)
7: NC

From various reading I’m given to believe that the B, BC, BE designations are simply part updates for such things as better heat tolerance etc.

And these are the supposed cross matches (from modest to crazy prices):

  • ALFA ROMEO: 1637546,
  • Bremi: 14301,
  • Beru ZM061
  • Cargo: 150165,
  • Cambiare 1637546 /VE520225
  • C.I. XEI66
  • Delphi: CE20052, CE20052-12B1,
  • EPS: 1.695.030,
  • Euro Car Parts: 415590030
  • Facet: 9.4030,
  • FORD: V86BB12A199AA, 1637546, 86BB12A199AA,
  • HELLA: 5DA006623-431,
  • Huco: 138083,
  • Intermotor: 15030,
  • Kerr Nelson: IIM024,
  • KW: 465030,
  • Lucas: DAB801,
  • Magneti Marelli: 64833031,
  • Magneti Marelli: BKL3B,
  • Marelli BKL 3BC
  • Marelli BKL3BA
  • Marelli: 64833031, BKL3B,
  • Mobiletron: IG-FT004,
  • MOTAQUIP: LVIM198,
  • Quinton Hazell: XEI66, DAC10923QH
  • Transpo: XM631, 1.965.030 245537 2595026 415590030 465030 5DA00662, 138083,
  • ALFA ROMEO: 1637546,
  • FORD: V86BB12A199AA,
  • STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS LX1016
  • Unipoint: IM702,
  • UNIPART: GIM5083
  • Valeo: 245537, VE520225, 2595026, CD883, XEI66

You’ll note a few of those align w/ the Ferrari modules.

The BKL 3B pinout is given here: http://www.dinoplex.org/PDF/Marelli%20Microplex%20MED120B%20Connector.pdf

BKL3B_PInout
BKL3B_PInout660×705 89.3 KB

Note critical pins match (not all, but the critical ones) on the DAB801 module (one of the pinouts I could find):

http://en.gasgoo.com/auto-images/ignition-system-407/1311539.html

Lucas DAB801 001520656

I suspect/hope I could find more illustrated pinouts searching the various possible cross PNs given. Sometimes it’s hard to find that data though.

image
image1480×957 109 KB

The basic concern is that a module that controls dwell could move timing by a number of crank degrees (depending on charging/discharge time) at high RPM:

Coil charging times vary, but example COP coils range from 4ms (LS1 coils) to sub 2mS (LS2 coils). Older coils … I’ve seen 4, 5, 8mS as given times… so not I’m not entirely sure what the Marelli coil needs for FULL charge saturation… -depending on voltage always.)

[strike]
At 6500 RPM, the crank is moving 6.5 degrees per mS. So a spark event change of 2mS could change timing by 13deg at high RPM.
[/strike]

EDIT: I botched my radians/second math above. The effect is even more pronounced:

So 1RPM = 6 deg/second
Sanity check: (6x60)=360
And (1/60) / (1/360) = 6

6500 RPM = 6x6500 or 39,000 degrees/second
= 39deg/ms

Sanity:
1ms = (6deg/sec) / 1000 or 0.006 deg/ms
6500 x 0.006 = 39 degrees

(Double checked w/ online calculators)

So a 1 ms variance in discharge time sees a 39 degree movement of the crank at 6500rpm.

~Paul Kobres

1 Like
9

I just realized the dwell issue messes with my idea for a sequencer for a “Marelli Pseudo Distributorless Ignition” too. If one were to sequence the Marelli ECU control signal, the EASIEST way to do that is to plumb some cheap smart LS2 coils to the system which control dwell (and maybe that would work anyway), but if one has to use dumb 2-wire COP units, an ignitor for those units must be between the sequencer and coils, or built into the sequencer, and typically an igniter is somewhat coil specific, as COP coils sometimes take a step-up input voltage above 12V (several hundred volts). Then you’re back to adding off-the shelf ignitors from other companies which aren’t cheap if not junkyard acquired etc… PITA…

grump

~Paul K.

10

Febi part# 17192 showed up on an interchange table for the Bosch 137. Put on my Marrelli 94 XJS V12 and it started right up. Got two for less than $40 with shipping from Car ID.

2 Likes
11

I was under the impression dwell was just the time to charge the IM and that a smart IM would adjust the degree of dwell to maintain the same dwell time irrespective of degrees.

Of course dwell measured in degrees varies with rpm. Guys on a turbo site say the ecu would controll the spark. They use the Bosch 124, 137, and 139 with same mapping.

12

Well I could be wrong here, but the information I’ve gleaned on the 137/139 is that it triggers on the first edge of the square wave. And I’m not entirely sure what that means except that:

A BLK3x or BIM124 should actually SPARK on the 2nd edge of the square wave with the first edge being the begin charging event. So the length of the square wave is the dwell period… IF I understand correctly (and that is suspect…)

But if I’m right… (and the Marelli ECU does control dwell… so I don’t know how it would do it other than vary the square wave period) then the BIM137 modules are either adding their own custom charge time to the BEGINNING square wave event… OR have already been maintaining coil charge levels waiting for the first edge of the square wave as a discharge event. Either way, it could result in a few MS difference. A bit less so if the BIM139 takes the leading edge of the square wave as a [begin charging & use smart-dwell] event…

None of that would matter at modest RPM of course. But 6500? Hmm…

~Paul K.

13

I would think the Marelli ECU would be able to calculate ms time to degrees of dwell for changing rpm.

Then again the turbo guys were running COP four bangers.

14

This goes into the differences between the module types to some extent, and I’m still trying to wrap my head around it.

One thing that’s clear is that modules and coils and Ign ECUs are all sensitive to each other and need to be matched to prevent coil destruction.

15

Well, yes and no. The smart ignition amps try but dwell may still be limited by the time between sparks. On the V12 with the Lucas ignition, the spark voltage reportedly starts to drop off around 4000 rpm. That’s because it’s using all the dwell time available and cannot fully charge the coils for each spark. With the advent of the Marelli each coil only fires half as often, so they have twice as much dwell time to charge. Wasted-spark like the Nippondenso has six coils, each fires 1/6 as often as the Lucas coil, hence peeelunty of time to charge. And coil-on-plug has twice as much time as those.

The neat thing about the electronic ignitions is that they prevent the dwell time from being too long when the engine is turning slowly (or stalled!) and potentially burning up a coil. That, in turn, has allowed coils to evolve from large bottle-shaped oil-cooled monstrosities to little blocks that look like transformers for toy car sets or something.

2 Likes
16

Some aftermarket performance coils for motorcycles come with instructions to never turn the ignition on and not start the engine or coil damage may result.

The dwell time can be very long on a double or single cylinder motorcycle. In one that idles at 1200 rpm and redlines at 10,000 the coil is very toasty at idle and running out of juice at redline.

17

I presume we’re talking about machines with points? Because I’da thought even motorcycles had gone to electronic ignitions by now, doing away with excessive dwell at low rpm.

2 Likes
18

Yes. I have an older bike with points, 1977 XS 650 Yamaha twin. I am however running a Ford TFI module with dwell control and a GM dual coil distributor used on V6 engines. I have the single module triggered off of both points so it runs a waste spark. I can do this because it is a 360 degree crank; both pistons rise and fall together.

The points only trigger the module so they pass very little current and do not pit. Rubbing block needs adjusted every 5-10K miles.

1 Like
19

Brilliant! Exactly the kinda thing I would have suggested!

20

Fella that designed it calls himself Mr. Riggs. If you google him he has a webpage where he has done a few cool things with auto electronics. Come to think about it he could probably design something for a Jag V12 engine.

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