[xj-s] XJS pulled to the right and nearly killed me

Hi everyone I do hope that someone can help me!

I have a 1990 XJS convertable ‘H’ registration with ‘ABS’
and just to clarify a bit more there is a black metal bulb on the
brake valves the size of a tennis ball that says do not remove
brake fluid under pressure.

I bought the car about 4 years ago and decided to change the
front and rear brake pads (like you do when you buy a new car)

Everything was fine for several months, then one day when I was
driving along, I went to put the brakes on and the car just
violently pulled to the right and scared the hell out of me.

If it had been raining it would have spun the car no problem at
all.

Then the problem seemed to go away for several months, then it
happened again without any warning and if I had been on a bend it
would have killed me.

Then it went away again but suddenly came back and nearly sent me
straight into a concrete traffic island.

I have rung all sorts of experts who hadn’t got a clue and were
only willing to help me if I gave them a blank cheque to sort it
out.

So I decided to try and fix the problem myself:

New brake hose, new calliper, new disc pads but I cannot bleed
the new front calliper, as even with the engine running the pedal
goes down to the floor and no matter how fast I pump the pedal,
no brake fluid comes out. (and I’m even using a proper bleeding
tube with a non return valve)

Just in case you were wondering there is plenty of fluid in the
master cylinder fluid bottle but I can’t get it through the
system.

Has anyone had a problem like this? and is it a common fault as
even if I do get it fixed I’m not sure if I will ever be able to
trust this car again.

Is the ABS system fail safe? ie if one of the sensors went, would
the brake on that wheel still continue to work?

All the lights on the ABS & brake warning lights used to go out ok
but of course they don’t do that at the moment.

This problem is so scarey I cannot believe it exists, thank god I
wasn’t driving at high speed (or you wouldn’t be reading this!)–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Willpower,
Your car, like mine, has the Teves II ABS system. There are many good
articles in the archives on ABS brakes. Look in the XJ-S and modern
lists. Some articles describe the very problem you are having. Other
articles describe the proper bleeding and flushing procedures. Here’s
the bad news: when replacing the pads, it is imperative that you have
the bleed screws open when you push the pistons back into the calipers.
Otherwise, you end up pushing dirty brake fluid back into the ABS valve
body. That is a bad thing. If you’re lucky, a thorough flushing will get
the crap out of your valve body and there are no stuck valves. Make sure
that you use the correct brake fluid, I like Castrol LMA. I strongly
suggest that you scan the archives before any more driving or attempting
repairs.

– Dave
73 XJ12 350/350
89 XJ-S 5.3L V12 Marelli

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In reply to a message from willpower sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Thanks for your help Dave but unfortunately I DID do the dirty
deed and pushed the calliper back without undoing the bleed screw
first!

I am really curious to know what caused the problem in the first
place, was it my henious act of pushing the calliper back that
caused this problem? or is this a common enough fault anyway,
though hopefully a rare one.

Also does anyone know how I get brake fluid moving through my
system again, since the pedal does not work anymore.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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Have to agree with Dave on this one, had similar problem with my brakes last
year.
Does the car always swerve only one way, or is it random?
Guess you have a stuck solenoid valve in the ABS valve block, the
replacement cost is not nice, but you can get an overhaul kit for them if
all else fails.
Cured mine by flushing a bucketload of fluid through the system. Did you
have the brake pump running while you were trying to bleed the system.
Although not required for the front brakes, it may help to have the pump
running, or try one of the pressurised brake bleeding kits.
Check the Modern, and XJ40 archives as well, same/similar brake system.
ATB

Nigel
XJS Conv.4.0 1993

Willpower,
Your car, like mine, has the Teves II ABS system. There are many good
articles in the archives on ABS brakes. Look in the XJ-S and modern
lists. Some articles describe the very problem you are having. Other
articles describe the proper bleeding and flushing procedures. Here’s

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Bleeding the brakes on this system is pretty easy. Try doing the following
for the front brakes:

  1. Make sure nipple is closed.
  2. With key off, pump peddle 20 times or so, until the pedal goes hard.
  3. Open the bleed nipple, and slowly press the peddle all the way.
    (IMPORTANT - If you’re not using a “one man”, one-way valve on the bleed
    hose, you’ll need a helper to open the nipple AFTER you begin pressing the
    peddle, and close it BEFORE you release the pedal, to keep air from being
    sucked back in.)

Do this 2, 3, or however many times it takes until the fluid runs clear and
bubble free. I, too, originally pushed the caliper pistons back with the
nipple closed (out of ignorance). Luckily, I’ve never had any serious
after-effects, as AFAIK, after thoroughly bleeding.

Note: You may also find that you need to recharge the accumulator before
step #1, if you end up having to do the procedure a few times. I did. Just
turn the key to the on position. You’ll hear the ABS pump actuate. When it
shuts off, turn the key to “off”.
Bleeding the rear brakes REQUIRE you to run the ABS pump, but AFTER
depressing the pedal, and BEFORE closing the nipple and releasing the pedal.

Always make sure you have plenty of brake fluid in the reservoir during the
bleeding procedure. Most people here recommend Castrol LMA DOT 4 fluid for
our ABS systems. I use it. If you have, or intend to purchase, the JDHT CD
manual #JHM-1127, the bleeding procedure is on pages 70-47 through 70-50.

Gary
94 4.0L Convertible
San Jose, CA----- Original Message -----

In reply to a message from willpower sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Thanks for your help Dave but unfortunately I DID do the dirty
deed and pushed the calliper back without undoing the bleed screw
first!

I am really curious to know what caused the problem in the first
place, was it my henious act of pushing the calliper back that
caused this problem? or is this a common enough fault anyway,
though hopefully a rare one.

Also does anyone know how I get brake fluid moving through my
system again, since the pedal does not work anymore.

willpower

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Willpower:

If you have indeed dirtied your valve block, you might want to
drop Brett a note on the Moderns list (whatever its called now).
He disassembled, cleaned and reassembled his successfully.

That said, when I did front pads I noticed that bleeding the fronts
was ridiculously slow. Only a few drops per cycle. I would try
bleeding them the old fashioned way (two person) and be very
patient. The pedal does not seem to displace much fluid, and if
you have air in the system now, will displace even less!

Try to find a 1990 bleeding procedure. I have it for 1992 and
it specifically states that for front brakes the ABS must be
discharged (key off!).

At this point its best to read the instructions!

Richard Drozdowski
1992 XJS

Hi everyone I do hope that someone can help me!

I have a 1990 XJS convertable ‘H’ registration with ‘ABS’
and just to clarify a bit more there is a black metal bulb on the
brake valves the size of a tennis ball that says do not remove
brake fluid under pressure.

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Hi

I had this exact same problem on my 91 coupe.

It was wet, and I did go sideways down the wrong side of a country road, and
it did nearly kill me. Dumb luck nothing was coming the other way.

The problem was quite simple in the end. The brake lines apparently have a
series of filters in them. If the lines have sediment in them, the filters
stop it getting into the cylinders (I assume this is the idea).

Under normal braking, the filters let enough fluid pass to apply pressure to
both sides of the system. Under heavy braking, one of the filters would
completely clog causing only one side of the car to brake. Hence the
pulling.

The solution was to flush the system, an replace all the filters. I has this
done at the shop as my car was still under warranty from the dealer I bought
it off, but I know they spent something like 30 hours in labour, and over a
$1000 (NZD so that’s not hard to do) in parts. I will dig out the
documentation tomorrow and let you know in detail what they did.

Scared the hell out of me I can tell you.

Cheers
John

ers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from Nigel sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Hi Nigel & thank you very much for your help on this.

Although I’d like to take the blame for all the mess I’m in, the
manual I was using, told me to bar the calliper back with a piece
of wood but failed to say undo the bleed screw first.

Nor did it happen to mention the possible outcome, which in my
case could have been somewhat fatal!

If I had been doing 70mph I dread to think what would have
happened, I was doing about 30mph touched the brakes quite gently
and the wheel shot out of my hand and the whole thing happened in
a nano second.

Having a very nice car like this my days as a ‘boy racer’ are
well and truly over and I always drive it very sensibly but what
happened really freaked me out. I just couldn’t believe it!

When it happens it always shoots off to the right, so violently
that you just cannot control it.

The weird thing is, it only happens when you least expect it, as
you can go months with no problems at all and then it suddenly
happens.

Which is the ABS block? is that the one with the black tennis
ball thing on it? and do you know if they were aware of this
fault and used a different ABS valve on the later cars.

This pressurised bleeder seems to be what I need do you know
where I can get one and how did you sort the problem out on yours.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from Gary sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Hi Gary and thanks for your help but even with the nipple closed
the pedal is still dead regardles of whether the motor is running
or not and as you know these garages just lay in wait for Jag
owners with these sort of problems.

They never give you a fixed price but at �40-�60 per hour plus
parts, that’s another accident waiting to happen.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from Richard Drozdowski sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Hi Richard and thank you for replying.

I always thought the XJS was one of the safest cars that money
could buy but now I am not so sure.

My car is in really nice condition and has been well looked after
but this ABS system really gives me the creeps and lots of others
too by the sound of things–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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The same “dead pedal” happened to me during bleeding. That’s why I wrote the
step-by-step procedure that I used. Try doing it exactly the way it’s
written, before proceeding with expensive dealer repairs.

After re-reading your original post, it sounds like you are pumping with the
nipple open. You should pump with it closed.

Gary----- Original Message -----

Hi Gary and thanks for your help but even with the nipple closed
the pedal is still dead regardles of whether the motor is running
or not and as you know these garages just lay in wait for Jag
owners with these sort of problems.

They never give you a fixed price but at �40-�60 per hour plus
parts, that’s another accident waiting to happen.

willpower

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John Harpour wrote:

The problem was quite simple in the end. The brake lines apparently
have a series of filters in them. If the lines have sediment in them,
the filters stop it getting into the cylinders (I assume this is the
idea).

The solution was to flush the system, an replace all the filters. I
has this done at the shop as my car was still under warranty from the
dealer I bought it off, but I know they spent something like 30 hours
in labour, and over a $1000 (NZD so that’s not hard to do) in parts. I
will dig out the documentation tomorrow and let you know in detail
what they did.

Oh, yeah. Please give us the part numbers of those filters, the
quantity of the filters involved, and the Jaguar price each. Should
be right there on the invoice.

– Kirbert

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willpower wrote:

I always thought the XJS was one of the safest cars that money
could buy but now I am not so sure.

My car is in really nice condition and has been well looked after but
this ABS system really gives me the creeps and lots of others too by
the sound of things

I just bought a 2002.5 Mazda Proteg�5 last month. ABS is an option –
and I opted not to get it. It’s not as though I couldn’t afford it.
I just don’t happen to be one of those guys who thinks that any
acronym-designated option that costs money must make my life better
or safer.

Yeah, there are hypothetical situations where ABS can save your ass –
but that’s balanced against hypothetical situations in which an ABS
failure can kill you. Reports say statistically ABS doesn’t save
lives, tentatively explained that drivers who know how to use brakes
don’t need it and get confused when using it. Toss in the
significant difference in maintenance costs plus the fact that I HATE
the way ABS works in snow, and I’ll pass.

If I had an XJ-S with ABS and it started acting up, I’d strongly
consider retrofitting the pre-ABS master cylinder. How much $$$$
would that save over the $4K repair? Maybe someone here could put
together a guide on how to do that and what parts are needed.

By the way, another option on the Proteg�5 was side air bags. Left
that option on the shelf, too. You really need to read the warnings
in the owner’s handbook about those things before you decide they
will improve your “safety”. For one thing, you’re not allowed to sit
near a door; the bag inflating could be harmful to your health.

– Kirbert

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In reply to a message from John Harpour sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Hi John

You are an absolute ‘Trouper’!

While I thank everyone who replied for all of their help and
advice and having picked up several very good tips along the way,
I honestly believe john, that you have really hit the nail on the
head.

The way you explain it really confirms the way that everything
happened, as I always allow good breaking time even if I don’t
need to, as when those brakes are working they can really stop
you dead! (if you’ll pardon the pun)

My own style of driving, is just to enjoy the XJS for the
beautiful car that it is and I can never see myself driving
anything else.

I don’t drive like a madman and I’m gentle on the brakes, which
may account for many months when nothing untoward happened.

But once in a while you hit the brakes a bit harder and on one of
those occaisions the filter must have dogged out.

I didn’t know those brake lines even had filters!

So if you never ever do another good deed in your life, then
please will you tell me/us in detail how you fixed it and where
those filters are.

It never even mentions them in the manual that I used

Are the filters all combined in the thing that has the black
tennis ball on the top?

In other words is it all combined in one unit or are the filters
in another part?

If they are altogether it could be more cost effected to buy a
brand new one, especially if I’m risking life and limb.

To anyone else who’s reading this, it is the scaryest moment you
may ever have in your life, when over a ton of metal in what we
all think is a bullet proof car with a bullit proof V12 engine
that should do 140mph no problem at all.

Very suddenly loses it and goes out of control leaving you
sitting in the lap of the Gods and I’m sure john will confirm
every word I’m saying.–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from Kirbert sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi Kirbert

I could not agree more with what you are saying! this ABS system
in my book is a ‘death trap’!

I am still having sleepless nights about my favourite country
road with lots of long twists and turns, where braking is not an
option it’s essential and if that filter had dogged out there I
would surely be dead by now, it would have been an horrendous
accident.

The problem is when that filter gets blocked it’s not a
progressive sort of thing that gets a little bit worse every time.

If it goes wrong, then it goes wrong ‘Big Time’ and if you don’t
get killed or injured you are lucky!

Ditto with the airbags, if one goes off when you’re driving, then
that can kill you too!–
willpower
–Posted using Jag-lovers JagFORUM [forums.jag-lovers.org]–

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In reply to a message from John Harpour sent Thu 8 Aug 2002:

Where are these in line filters, I renewed all the hoses last
year and saw no evidence of any filters. If the work was carried
out by the dealer, the invoice will have the part numbers, would
be interesting to know.–
The original message included these comments:

The problem was quite simple in the end. The brake lines apparently have a
series of filters in them. If the lines have sediment in them, the filters


Nigel, 1993 XJS 4.0L Conv
Manchester, United Kingdom
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Once you sort out the brake problem, it is good practise to test it once in
a while, big open space, no other traffic, accelerate and then stamp on the
stop pedal. If the system works, the wheels should not lock up, and you’ll
feel a pulsing through the car.

ATB

Nigel
XJS Conv.4.0 1993

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Although I’d like to take the blame for all the mess I’m in, the
manual I was using, told me to bar the calliper back with a piece
of wood but failed to say undo the bleed screw first.

Even the Jaguar workshop manual fails to mention this, but a search on the
archives would have given warning, and it is also mentioned in Kirby’s book.

Which is the ABS block? is that the one with the black tennis
ball thing on it? and do you know if they were aware of this
fault and used a different ABS valve on the later cars.

The ABS block is located below the servo booster, which is below the
reservoir. The tennis ball thing you refer to is the accumulator, which is
connected to the ABS pump.
What about the brake and ABS warning lights, do they stay on when the engine
is running?

This pressurised bleeder seems to be what I need do you know
where I can get one and how did you sort the problem out on yours.

Gunson pressure bleed kit, available from Halfords, for about �18.

Do you know when the brake hoses were last renewed, they don’t last forever,
and the rubber can break down, and cause a blockage/restriction.
Once you have the kit, try bleeding the brake through the caliper, if no
fluid appears, then depressurise the system and remove the hose, check to
see if hose is clear.
If its is not the hose, I would suspect that a solenoid valve in the block
is not operating/stuck.
However, before going any further, bite the bullet and take the car to a Jag
dealer. They have the diagnostic computer, which they hook into the ABS ECU,
and from this, can most likely detect a problem. Alot of Jag dealers in the
UK are offering preferential rates o owners whose cars are over 3 years old,
my local place offers 25% discount on labour, and 10% on parts.
The car with dodgy brakes is not roadworthy, life and limb are at risk, it
will be money well spent. If they can identify the problem, then you can
decide to fix yourself, or let someone else have a go.

Check out
http://www.jag-lovers.org/modern/book_index.html

There is a whole sections on the Teves brake system.
Oh, BTW, forget what I said about bleeding front brakes with the pump
running, my mistake, this is only for bleeding the rear brakes.

ATB

Nigel
XJS Conv.4.0 1993

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In reply to a message from Nigel sent Fri 9 Aug 2002:

Hi Nigel

That is not only sound advice but very good advice that you are
giving me and a special thank you to you for the pressurised
bleeder from Halfords. (I will get one)

Since I first put this posting up, I have been doing some
research of my own, which maybe of interest to you all.

When bleeding an ABS system I have been told that using a
pressuried bleeder is absolutely essential and the proper tool
for the job cost a few hundred pounds!

Without the pressurised bleeder which not every garage has got,
you cannot be sure that all the air/crud is flushed out.

Especially when pumping the brakes in the normal way seems to
produce a dribble of fluid rather than the full flow we are
always used to seeing on non ABS type cars

I also learned of something else that will SHOCK everybody and
maybe even kill you in the process.

When you take your car for a service you may be surprised by how
many garages just top up the brake fluid, rather than flush the
old stuff right out of the system and that means every calliper
on each of those brake lines.

The so called specialised mechanic who I trusted to service my
XJS when asked about the brake fluid admitted he only topped it
up as stated on my invoice.

Knowing what I do know now but did not know before, this invoice
now looks more like a suicide note!

I don’t know about the rest of you but I am going to sit there
and watch while the old fluid is flushed out of my cars system
and replaced with new every year, as the filters on the ABS seem
totally unforgiving.

In answer to your other question nigel. Yes the ABS light goes
out and so does the brake warning light but something in the ABS
is obviously quite capable of causing a major problem.

I also tested the ABS on the lawn in my garden by doing 20mph
then stamping on the brakes (when they were working) the car
stopped in a very short length and didn’t leave the skid marks
that I was expecting and in fact it hardly ruffled the grass at
all.

And yes I will get the brakes checked out at a Jaguar dealership
with their diagnostic equipment.

Thanks nigel

your comments and advice are appreciated.–
willpower
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I also learned of something else that will SHOCK everybody and
maybe even kill you in the process.

Yipes! I stopped reading at this point, just in case.

:slight_smile:

Jason
1976 XJ-S with Supra 5-speed

// please trim quoted text to context only----- Original Message -----
From: “willpower” gotmail2uk@yahoo.co.uk